HL1 monsters vs HL2 monsters

[TriggerHappy]

If HL1 material can be ported to Source very easily, I would like to see someone make a mod where we could pit NPCs from HL1 against HL2 NPCs.

For example, you could set up a small map with two small bases, one with HL1 grunts and the other with combine soldiers, and have them duke it out.

I think it would be interesting to see if the improved AI for HL2 would translate to tougher NPCs or not. I also think this mod would not be too difficult or time-consuming to make, depending on how easy it is to convert HL1 to Source.

 

[Angry Lawyer]

Depending on the compatibility of HL1 and HL2 code, I predict it'll be very easy. And it'll be even easier if they release the source code to HL1:Source, if that gets released.
And yes, a certain Lawyer already has something similar in mind.

What I always wanted to do was stick the Quake, Quake 2, and Doom monsters in with the Half-Life ones, and see which game really did have the hardest monsters. Never got around to it though.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[TriggerHappy]

What I always wanted to do was stick the Quake, Quake 2, and Doom monsters in with the Half-Life ones, and see which game really did have the hardest monsters. Never got around to it though.

Yeah, me too. I don't know about Doom monsters, since they are only sprites, but I've imagined before about, say, taking the stormtroopers from Jedi Knight and having them fight the Nazi soldiers from Return to Castle Wolfenstein or the soldiers from Half-Life.

However, up to now, I think most such fights would be pretty dull. Hopefully, the AI in HL2 will change that!

 

[Angry Lawyer]

HL1 had a pretty meaty squad AI system actually. It still surprises me.
But, the Doom monsters, I had a patch to make them OpenGL Quake2 Models, thus did actually have an easily ported source. Still, none of the models from the other games actually had bones, thus I'd end up wasting half my life animating them for a pointless battle.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[Mechagodzilla]

I'd like to see how the combine fare against Race-X.

 

[Angry Lawyer]

Well, if the Mod I'm working on takes off, you'll find out soon enough .

-Angry Lawyer

 

[Ames]

Sounds like the Sven-Coop stadium map to me.

 

[Angry Lawyer]

It does, doesn't it. Thank goodness that my mod has no intention of sticking random monsters in a killbox. But, enough pimping of my mod.

On a seperate train of thought - which of these do you think would win, and why?

Gargantua - Half Life
Strider - Half Life 2
Cyberdemon - Doom
Tank Commander - Quake 2.

Bare in mind, though, that the Gargantua can be damaged by all of the other three due to them all containing energy weapons and explosives. But, lets see some opinions.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[Ames]

Strider...massive amounts of punishment. :O

Are you going to make it so that you can play as the monsters?

 

[Angry Lawyer]

More of control them from an isometric camera perspective.

I don't know, the Cyberdaemon has quite a bit of a chance. Damage ratings between the four games are pretty similar, and if I recall, the Cyberdaemon had more than the Tank Commander (800hp) and the Gargantua (200hp).
Still, if anyone can come up with another random beastie that can top the four aforementioned ones, by all means, do

-Angry Lawyer

 

[TriggerHappy]

More of control them from an isometric camera perspective.

Whoa, really? Did you ever play QWar2 for Quake2? That's the only fps mod I'm aware of where you can command npcs like in an RTS game. It seemed like it needed more fleshing out though. They had energy powerups around the level to pick up as resources, and then you could spawn Strogg for different amounts of energy. And I think there were energy cores for each side to defend. But, it just didn't seem to work well. You didn't have a good view of your base. Another problem I seem to recall with it (it's been a while) was that it was easy to make a nearly impenetrable defense, just by setting up a bunch of guys with machine-gun weapons in a room, telling them to stand still, and watching as they liquidated anything that walked in the room. Kind of like a bunch of sentry turrets in Half-Life.

A Half-Life mod like this should be more fun since you could have humans vs aliens or something, rather than two identical Strogg teams.

Still, I would be happy just with what I suggested before. This other stuff would be a much bigger project. Good luck, though, and try QWar2 if you haven't yet so you can get an idea of what you'll be working with!

 

[Estevan]

OMG that gave me an awsome idea!!!

ROCKET CROWBAR WILL OWN ON HL2!!!!!!
If they dont make it i will! With their permission of course

 

[Angry Lawyer]

I absolutely loved QWAR2, and as soon as I got hold of the original HL source, I started trying to recreate it.

Admitted, the game always tended to stalemate, but that was quite often a map problem, as they tended to concentrate on one easily-defended chokepoint, alongside long corridors. Add to that the fact that both teams were exactly the same, and you had a problem.
The design tests I set up with the original Half Life, where it was Xen against Humans, tended to work very well, actually. The machinegunner problem in QWAR2 doesn't really apply in HL due to the fact enemies use fireing cones, rather than hitting with deadly accuracy. And as certain monsters can resist bullets, either team can win. You kinda grow attached to a group of human defenders, though, when you group them in a defensive formation, and they start chatting...

Still, Combine vs. Resistance vs. Xen vs. (possibly) Race X might create an interesting RTS, if I get all the kinks worked out, and if I finally sort out the computer AI code I was doing in the HL1 tests...

-Angry Lawyer

 

[TriggerHappy]

Hey AngryLawyer, here is another angle you could look at if you can really make some progress on this project.

For a single-player mod, you could have a limited set of resources, like maybe 6 soldiers or a certain amount of money for buying and outfitting soldiers, and then have a map full of bad guys, scripted events, etc. that you have to guide them through!

Although they'd be fairly autonomous, you could have strategy in the form of what kind of soldiers you picked and what weapons they use (didn't Valve say somewhere that NPCs in HL2 can use most or all of the game's weapons?). There would also be strategy in positioning your soldiers, maybe being able to order grenade throws, etc.

I guess that's pretty similar to what we were already talking about, just a single-player version. Still, it might be nice to be able to play the mod single-player and this would be a much easier solution than coding an RTS AI, don't you think?

Another thing that QWar2 was lacking, which is pretty important, is a minimap. Several mods have this, like Day of Defeat, so I assume it wouldn't be overly difficult to implement.

Oh yeah, why did you say the Gargantua only has 200hp? I looked at the skill.cfg file and it has 800 on Normal difficulty. As far as tough monsters, weren't the bosses in Duke Nukem 3D nearly impossible?

 

[Angry Lawyer]

I meant 2000 . But that's a guesstimate.
Yes, if I ever get around to doing the mod, there will be a single-player campaign, in a similar way to how Starcraft had one - units types are introduced over time, and an AI player actually controls a team on most levels. Admitted, some levels will likely be in the vein of what you describe - the very first Combine mission planned is a foray into zombie-infested territory, to hunt down some rebels, with a small group of units, to let the player get to grips with the control system.

AI coding for an oppoent player is alot simpler than it seems. Simply get the computer to check the number of resources he has, check a radius that is proportional to the resources, and pick the best thing to do in that radius. Thus, is a computer is having trouble with resources, he won't foray into enemy territory, as his sphere of 'do stuff in this area' will be small.

Yes, I'll endeavour to have some form of minimap. I was thinking something along the lines of the spectator map view in Counterstrike, as well.

And, as a final point, my tests in HL1 produced some really interesting results. As I kept the majority of the original creature AI in the game, the marines would decide when the best time for lobbing grenades was, as well as finding their own cover, if under fire. HL2 promises even better AI - it definately could be fun.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[TriggerHappy]

Sounds really cool! Still, I swear 99% of mod-makers/game-makers are overly ambitious. But, you sound like you've got some experience, so good luck with it!

 

[Mechagodzilla]

If it's a RTS, you could have the marines/black ops/combine sent in via helicopter, truck or APC in exchange for resources or whatever.

The Aliens could cost resources to warp in...

Wow, this really does have potential.

 

[Angry Lawyer]

Wow - I actually have a prospective fan base!
I was definately thinking of having cool effects for the creation of units, but will probably settle for the ability for mappers to allow the creation of units trigger other map entities, thus a whole sequence can be created based on the style of the map.

I really thought I was the only one in the world who actually thought a pure RTS in Half-Life 2 would be any good. Wow

-Angry Lawyer

 

[Mechagodzilla]

If well implemented, this could be great.

Science team:
Barneys w/ glocks, magnums, crossbows or shotguns.
Otises w/ deagles.
Scientists w/ pipe wrenches, crowbars, shotguns, tau cannons, displacers and gluon guns.
Bonus: HEV scientists, BM security turrets, can lock and open doors that others can't,
access to some some alien tech weapons, scientists can heal, experiments can be activated as traps.
Vehicles: Trams, forklifts, SUVs, very limited teleportation.
Downsides: Weak in small numbers.
Upsides: Very cheap to spawn.

The marines:
Marines w/ a huge variety of weapons (but only one each): knife, glock, shotgun, MP5, SAW, sniper rifle, RPGL + a limited supply of grenades, detpacks and tripmines.
Medics w/ deagles and healing.
Engineers w/ deagles and cutting torch.
Bonus: access to various gun emplacements and ability to place autogun turrets and sandbag barricades.
Vehicles: Apaches, geese, trucks, tanks, jets, APCs.
Downsides: Hyper-expensive to spawn.
Upsides: Most variety and good strength.

Black Ops:
Regular ops w/ knife, MP5s, sniper rifles and some other marine guns + grenades and tripmines.
Assassins w/ silenced pistol and grenades.
Bonus: Gun emplacements, assassins can cloak. Sandbag barricades
Vehicles: Apaches, trucks.
Downsides: Less variety than the marines.
Upsides: Better at close-range combat, cheaper, faster, mass-producible.

Nihilanth:
Controlers w/ rapid-fire fireball and seeker fireball.
Slaves w/ lightning bracelets and claw attack.
Grunt w/ punch and hivehand.
Garg w/ flamethrower, punch and sonic wave attack.
Bonus: Garg is invincible, slaves regain health easily, Autogun lasers, snark tripmines.
Vehicles: Second best teleportation and manta ships.
Downsides: Weak, for the most part. Can't use human technology.
Upsides: Mass-produced, wide variety of units.

Gonarch:
Gonarch w/ claws, poison, baby headcrabs.
Headcrabs w/ slice, zombify.
Zombies w/ slash attack.
Gonomes w/ bite, slash and acid toss.
+ whatever new guys appear in Hl2, like the poison crabs and the corpse zombies.
Bonus: Zombification powers work on many dead enemies, units 'evolve' automatically, can create organic barriers like in Gonarch's lair.
Vehicles: very limited teleportation.
Downsides: Weaker than most, many units have no ranged attacks. Can't use human technology.
Upsides: The cheapest units and the most mass-producible. Best at melee, faster than most anything else.

Race-X:
Shock Troopers w/ spore grenades and shock roach guns (maybe babytrooper guns?).
Pit drones w/ spike launching and sharp claws.
Voltigores w/ lightning, claws.
Bonus: Kamikaze kidnapping, pit worms and gene worms are placed as powerful stationary threats, voltigores spawn baby voltigores.
Vehicles: Best control over teleportation.
Downsides: More expensive than most. Weak against large numbers of targets
Upsides: Great accuracy, can sustain lots of damage.

Xen Flora and Fauna (not a team, AI controlled):
Bullsquids w/ spit attack and melee. Attacks almost everything except houndeyes and some others.
Houndeyes w/ sonic attack. Only really attacks humans.
Barnacles w/ tongue latch. Eats anything organic.
Tentacles w/ stab and crush. Attacks anything that makes loud noises.
Icthy w/ bite. Attacks anything in the water.
Leeches. Same as Icthy.
Claw tree w/ stab. Stabs at things that touch it.
Snarks w/ bite and explode. They guard snark nests and will attack some types of nearby unit.
Most of these units are found throughout the maps as obstacles and barriers. Houndeyes and Bullsquid warp in at random.


It would kick so much ass to select a shock trooper, select Kamikaze Kidnapping, and then target a scientist.

 

[Angry Lawyer]

Well, unit plan so far in my big ol' design was as such. Bare in mind that maps have the option of four-teams maximum in the design document, thus I crammed alot of things into similar slots. And in the HL1 testout, it all fits into two categories.

For the testout, it was as such:

Humanity:
Barney
Otis
Marine(MP5, shotgun, SAW)
Chaingunner
Rocketeer
HEV/gauss trooper
Medic
Black ops Sniper
Engineer w/ turret building abilities
Assassin
'The Loader' (big yellow robit thing)

Xen:
Headcrab (which, if it managed to kill a human creature, would cause instant zombification)
Zombie
Houndeye
Bullsquid
Mr. Friendly
Gonome
Slave
Grunt
Controller
Kingpin
Panthereye
Gonarch
Gargantua

So far, that's all it really contains. For Half-Life 2, the units will be crammed into four teams; Xen, Human Resistance, Combine, and possibly Race X, although they've not got a very expansive unit list so far, so some crative liscence might be required.

Ohh, and the Scientists come under the classification of 'civilian'. They tend to run around the map panicing, while the grunts try and herd them to safe places, and the headcrabs try to zombify them...
I'm liking some of those suggestions, though.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[Murray_H]

This sounds awesome! I'm not usually a fan of RTS games, but this sounds like fun!

 

[Angry Lawyer]

Yay, an extra person in my fanclub!
Ooh - and I'm going to aim for appealing to those less RPG intensive too, with something akin to Dunegon Keeper's possession mode. Although, there'll be a limit on what you can possess, because an experienced player running about the map as a Strider will be pretty much unstoppable...

Still gotta think of a title. The current working title is Half-Life: Warlords, but that just sounds corny.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[Mechagodzilla]

It needs to be a physics term.

My pick:
Half-Life: Dissonance
Double meaning:
1) A harsh, disagreeable combination of sounds; discord.
2) Lack of agreement, consistency, or harmony; conflict.

I think it fits: resonance gone wrong + chaotic battle.

Anyways, here's the top-5 'what I think would be great':
1. Driving a forklift in combat. :cheese:
2. The Shock-trooper's kidnapping power.
3. Calling in airstrikes.
4. That big robot actually being used in a game.
5. Snark tripmines and the Xen autogun being used more than once each.

 

[Angry Lawyer]

1. Forklifts - gotta be fun - I might dot a few around the levels.
2. Kidnapping power - probably a little useless, considering civilians explode after one shot of the shock rifle, but I'll stick it in.
3. Airstrikes could be done, actually.
4. That big robot is already used in my game
5. Sounds like a plan to me.

Now, on to naming:
Dissonance...hmmm, sounds quite good. Better than Half Life: Standing Wave. Double meaning, because in physics, a standing wave is when waves stack on top of each other, and because...urmm...we can have people standing up and waving? Or Half Life: The Pauli Exclusion Principle. No idea why.
I'll get back to you on my final decision of name.

-Angry Lawyer

-Angry Lawyer

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Who says that the kidnapping attack can only be used on civvies?

 

[Angry Lawyer]

You have a very good point there...

-Angry Lawyer

 

[lonefox]

This sounds pretty cool. I always thought an RTS with HL would be cool.

You said you already made it for HL1? Got a link, perhaps?

 

[Angry Lawyer]

I never actually released it to the public, because it was only me arsing about with the code, and it only has one (not specifically good) map as we speak. And it's riddled with bugs. But, if you really want to play it, PM me and I'll see if I can sort out a few bugs before making a quick test-build available to select members of the public who ask me nice enough.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[Fatality_]

woot.. sounds awesome :naughty:

 

[dassbaba]

there will be HL1 monsters in HL2 mind you, but for some reason I think HL2 monsters would win in the HL1 vs HL2 wars...

 

[7h3-7w34k3r]

Hmm. I say we put a Duke Nukem monster in there!! :naughty:. My memory might be going bad but I thought that the Baron of Hell was a tougher monster than the cyberdemon?? (Been a while since i played Doom)

 

[Angry Lawyer]

Bahh, Duke Nukem monsters were terrible. The Cyberdaemon was waaaay more difficult to beat than the Baron - the Cyberdaemon's the one with the skinless midsection, and a big rocketlauncher strapped to his arm. The Baron's the generic horned daemon which fires bolts of evil green death at you.

Welcome all, to my Angry-Lawyer-super-HL2-RTS-fanclub!

-Angry Lawyer

 

[dassbaba]

Bahh, Duke Nukem monsters were terrible. The Cyberdaemon was waaaay more difficult to beat than the Baron - the Cyberdaemon's the one with the skinless midsection, and a big rocketlauncher strapped to his arm. The Baron's the generic horned daemon which fires bolts of evil green death at you.

Welcome all, to my Angry-Lawyer-super-HL2-RTS-fanclub!

-Angry Lawyer

you take that back.

they were so trite it was cool.

 

[Angry Lawyer]

I never really liked Duke Nukem much. I was brought up in a household that respected women too much, thus the whole strippers, steroids, and whatsit never really appealed to me. Doom, on the other hand, now that had classic beasties.

-Angry Lawyer