HL2..is the artificial intelligence for real? Or is everything scripted? read inside.

[big_mike]

Well, I dont want to get flamed for this, as this is what I heard from someone who has a friend who is actively beta testing Half Life 2. I did not seem to believe this, but I don't have the beta, so I raise the question here. He says his friend is a beta tester for HL2, and he said that whenever he goes through the levels, he can cause certain scripted events to occur. He says that is one of the reasons HL2 has been delayed for so long. Valve wanted to make the scripted events look a lot like a really intelligent AI. I just wanted to see if there was any thruth to his statement, as I was slightly dissapointed upon hearing it, however, I am still skeptical about his words.
someone let me in with their 2 cents.

 

[aeroripper]

It probably is all scripted...

we'll hafta see if this "contextual AI" they tote is for real once we play the game.

 

[Daiceman9]

Beta tester my ass, he probably has the leek. If so, then yes there was alot scriped in it, like the door getting knocked down in traptown, even if you killed the soliders who were supposed to knock it down.

 

[mortiz]

your friend is playing an illegal leak of a really old build, not a beta. And if he is playing a VALVE approved beta, well he's just broken the NDA.

 

[Intamin]

Some things will most likely have to be scripted, like something get's blown up to prevent you from going down a certain street, or some main character must die, you know, things like that.

But I'm pretty sure most of the game will be unscripted.

 

[Feath]

You do know that AI is just programmed don't you? It's not really alive. A serious of scripted events that make the AI seem real is the actual definition of AI.

"OMG, It only shot at me because someone programmed it to".

 

[big_mike]

It probably is all scripted...

we'll hafta see if this "contextual AI" they tote is for real once we play the game.

man, i sure hope not....i hope not....

 

[gainax2k1]

http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?p=468389&highlight=scripted#post468389

from the official news forum, straight from rick's, well, fingers:

"6. How much of the original E3 2003 was scripted? I've heard that almost all of it was, that most of it was, or that it was just using lots of AI hints. While it would be very cool if the AI was that dynamic I could see that using a lot of hints and some scripting too, so I'm just wondering.
*** That was actual AI that you saw running. We don't have a scripting language in Source, we use entity I/O to connect various pieces of AI together. AI hints are used to tell the AI things like where cover points are, hints on pathing etc. "

so, unless i'm really missing the point here, it sounds like it's all ai with some help....

 

[big_mike]

You do know that AI is just programmed don't you? It's not really alive. A serious of scripted events that make the AI seem real is the actual definition of AI.

"OMG, It only shot at me because someone programmed it to".

I completely understand that AI IS programmed, But the way valve makes it seem is that the AI will basically NEVER do the same thing twice, or move on the same paths twice. I want to know if this holds any water because this type of artificial intelligence would be a breakthrough in the gaming community.
Im not expecting the impossible, just the promised.

 

[CombineSoldier]

From what I know, the door does not get knocked down where there are no Combine.

 

[The Mullinator]

I completely understand that AI IS programmed, But the way valve makes it seem is that the AI will basically NEVER do the same thing twice, or move on the same paths twice. I want to know if this holds any water because this type of artificial intelligence would be a breakthrough in the gaming community.
Im not expecting the impossible, just the promised.

I thought the Farcry AI was already something like that, although I just played the demo so I could be very wrong.

 

[clarky003]

if you have ever played the leak, the scripting was for maximum effect , for show off purposes at E3 2003, but if you got into a fight with a combine the AI becomes apparent, ducking and hiding for cover when reloading, throwing grenades round corner's. etc

 

[gainax2k1]

I completely understand that AI IS programmed, But the way valve makes it seem is that the AI will basically NEVER do the same thing twice, or move on the same paths twice. I want to know if this holds any water because this type of artificial intelligence would be a breakthrough in the gaming community.
Im not expecting the impossible, just the promised.

i think some of it would also depend on how you approached the level... as in, if you always go to spot "A" to take cover, and you always chuck a grenade over to spot "B", then the ai might consitantly dodge from spot "B" to some spot "C" that is nearby to take cover... if you instead simply ran on rambo style to spot "B", instead of the enemy running to spot "C" to take cover, the enemy would prolly just shoot you down, or something else...

 

[Ownzed]

i think some of it would also depend on how you approached the level... as in, if you always go to spot "A" to take cover, and you always chuck a grenade over to spot "B", then the ai might consitantly dodge from spot "B" to some spot "C" that is nearby to take cover... if you instead simply ran on rambo style to spot "B", instead of the enemy running to spot "C" to take cover, the enemy would prolly just shoot you down, or something else...

Exactly...

 

[clarky003]

i think some of it would also depend on how you approached the level

it all depends on that one thing, any good AI is programmed to respond to you actions and position in the world, everything they do depends on where you are, cause that's where they will focus their attention, then move accordingly.

e.g, if a grenade lands next to one of them , that programmed proximity will trigger them to move away, perhaps to the nearest labelled cover in the area, then that event trigger's a retaliation where they back off and throw grenades back.

Its a generalisation , the written commands allow the AI entity's to choose the best path to retreat or attack (but their still following a script, a script of consequence and reaction routines which makes it appear like they are Intelligent), sometimes it looks good, sometimes they may look like retards .. but its all fun.

 

[mortiz]

i think some of it would also depend on how you approached the level... as in, if you always go to spot "A" to take cover, and you always chuck a grenade over to spot "B", then the ai might consitantly dodge from spot "B" to some spot "C" that is nearby to take cover... if you instead simply ran on rambo style to spot "B", instead of the enemy running to spot "C" to take cover, the enemy would prolly just shoot you down, or something else...

well if "spot c" is the best place to avoid getting blown up then I'm sure the A.I would move there 99% of the time.

VALVe have repeatedly told us that Half-Life 2 is unscripted, now if that's a straight out lie then it won't take long after release before people start noticing it and Valve lose a lot of street cred.

 

[flupke]

I think there are a lot of scripted sequences in HL2. You should watch all the BINK's again & note the scripted events down on a piece of paper. You'll have a very big list. A little example :

In the last released 'Coast' movie, at the end when gordon lifts that container with that big metal thingie ; just then the big garage opens & some combines are coming out of it.

 

[clarky003]

I think there are a lot of scripted sequences in HL2. You should watch all the BINK's again & note the scripted events down on a piece of paper. You'll have a very big list. A little example :

In the last released 'Coast' movie, at the end when gordon lifts that container with that big metal thingie ; just then the big garage opens & some combines are coming out of it.

yep thats a scripted trigger (moving the crain probably triggered the door to open), but it makes it seem like the combine heard the crain start and came out to investigate.

the linearage of the game wouldnt work without them . but the combine soldier's action afterward are most likely acting on the written AI script.

 

[VGJosh]

Everything is scripted! Nothing is random! There is no such thing as something that isn't scripted. When the "AI" sees something they are given a bunch of options. The idea of them having options is what makes them intelligent because they are able to choose the best option. That is scripted! Even if it was random there is no such thing. The trick is making it believable.

You can't tell a story unless you had scipted sequences. Otherwise it'd just be a shooter with limited goals. I've played the beta and there are scripted sequences but they are anything but complete. For all we know Valve was just testing some reactions of the AI and chose the best ones to show at E3.

 

[Stamp]

flupke:

Thats a trigger event, with (yes) a script to bring in the enemies. But what wer're talking about here is how the AI responds to your actions in combat with / against them, whether they actually think of themselves or just doing what they're told. I personally dont care that theres a tenny bit of script to get them to come in, but after that its up to the AI. (i think)

 

[clarky003]

The trick is making it believable

,

exactley, but, it does become essentially random because of the human player element, it's random because you never play it exactley the same every time, and that makes the AI react differently in their relation between you and the enviroment, I suppose you could call it a very clever illusion.

 

[Stamp]

vgjosh: i disagree with your statement. sure, the talking is scripted... but if you would listen to one of valve's problems, they mentioned that they had some difficulty keeping a balance between the person talking to you and being disrupted by outside events. so, yes, the talking is scripted.. but the script itself is a trigger. i think its all triggers.

 

[PvtRyan]

Your friend is a dumbass either way. Either he a) plays a stolen build and call it a beta testing b) broke the NDA for beta testing and will get sued so bad even his greatgrandchildren will have the beg on the streets.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

So, in conclusion: Your friend has absolutely no clue what he's talking about, and there will be AI in the game.

Let's look at it this way: Doom 3 had AI, and it was the most scripted game ever. You simply cannot have a decent game without AI. Especially one with gameplay as non-linear as Half-Life.

 

[Apos]

First of all, having AI do different things happens in HL1 for goodness sakes. I played out that first real battle with the marines over and over just because of that fact! Random behavior is a breeze to program: that's not what we want. What we want is intelligent and complex reactions.

Now, the AI in HL2 is definately contextual, but then even HL1 AI was to some extent. What makes HL2's AI more advanced is the way that entities can trigger other entities and then still others and so on in a myriad of different ways. In HL1, scripts simply ran like a movie: you cross a certain line, kill a certain entity, and a particular animation plays. The end. All you could do, and even then in only a few cases, was interrupt it, in which case the characters would revert to default state or be gibbed.

For HL2, it makes more sense to think of things in terms of "events" which are made up of simple physics interactions and a web of different entity triggers. Instead of scripting out a set animation, Valve instead builds the pieces of an event and lines them up like dominoes: sequences of triggers that can change in different contexts or at different points. That's what they mean by no scripting language, but instead having real entity I/O. A stimulus is recieved by an entity which, depending on its identity or context, then responds with a particular output. In HL2world this output is both an animation AND the physical act that the animation represents, like kicking a box, which actually means applying the force that actually moves the box, instead of the way oldstyle scripting would work, which would involve simply animating the box as moving in time with the kick.

Now, have no doubt: there WILL be events you can't stop. MANY of them. That's how they are going to move the story forward according to a set plot (the storyline isn't intended to be a highly branching one). You will definately trigger things in the game that, for all intents and purposes, will play out like scripted sequences in HL1 in that you won't be able to stop them or change their outcomes much, though your inability to change them will come more from actual inability rather than canned invisible walls and so on. But at this point, this is by game design and the needs of story advancement, not necessity. There will also be plenty going on in the game that you can affect, plenty of sequences you can interact with, plenty of ways you can make outcomes different.

 

[Wraithen]

But the AI can still fill out my Tax forms, right?

 

[MaDMaXX]

Apos knows what he's talking about, trust me.

 

[pixartist]

First of all, having AI do different things happens in HL1 for goodness sakes. I played out that first real battle with the marines over and over just because of that fact! Random behavior is a breeze to program: that's not what we want. What we want is intelligent and complex reactions.

Now, the AI in HL2 is definately contextual, but then even HL1 AI was to some extent. What makes HL2's AI more advanced is the way that entities can trigger other entities and then still others and so on in a myriad of different ways. In HL1, scripts simply ran like a movie: you cross a certain line, kill a certain entity, and a particular animation plays. The end. All you could do, and even then in only a few cases, was interrupt it, in which case the characters would revert to default state or be gibbed.

For HL2, it makes more sense to think of things in terms of "events" which are made up of simple physics interactions and a web of different entity triggers. Instead of scripting out a set animation, Valve instead builds the pieces of an event and lines them up like dominoes: sequences of triggers that can change in different contexts or at different points. That's what they mean by no scripting language, but instead having real entity I/O. A stimulus is recieved by an entity which, depending on its identity or context, then responds with a particular output. In HL2world this output is both an animation AND the physical act that the animation represents, like kicking a box, which actually means applying the force that actually moves the box, instead of the way oldstyle scripting would work, which would involve simply animating the box as moving in time with the kick.

Now, have no doubt: there WILL be events you can't stop. MANY of them. That's how they are going to move the story forward according to a set plot (the storyline isn't intended to be a highly branching one). You will definately trigger things in the game that, for all intents and purposes, will play out like scripted sequences in HL1 in that you won't be able to stop them or change their outcomes much, though your inability to change them will come more from actual inability rather than canned invisible walls and so on. But at this point, this is by game design and the needs of story advancement, not necessity. There will also be plenty going on in the game that you can affect, plenty of sequences you can interact with, plenty of ways you can make outcomes different.

all this is ONLY about scripting. you know, AI != map scripting. So this thread is about the question if the AI is really advanced or not, and with your statement one could assume that the AI is still the same as in HL1 and just the scripting was improved. Noone can say how far the new AI is improved, but i am really sure that it's not much different in comparison to other games.

 

[dis]

How smart can the AI really be when they stand underneath a large cargo container only to have it dropped on them (in the coast vids)? Just kidding. But honestly, that did seem a little odd to me. I guess it was just scripted for effect, but in reality who would stand their and let a crane operator move large objects over your head while your trying to kill them? :/

 

[Runner]

How smart can the AI really be when they stand underneath a large cargo container only to have it dropped on them (in the coast vids)? Just kidding. But honestly, that did seem a little odd to me. I guess it was just scripted for effect, but in reality who would stand their and let a crane operator move large objects over your head while your trying to kill them? :/

Then again the combine seem to haev one goal, KILL FREEMAN. So i dougth they even care for their own lives.

 

[The Mullinator]

Then again the combine seem to haev one goal, KILL FREEMAN. So i dougth they even care for their own lives.

But how can they kill Freeman if they are dead? :O

 

[BrownTown]

its funny to hear so many people talkign about the AI in HL2 when they dont really ahve a clue what its gonna be like beside a few quotes from VALVE (who, like any company is trying to make their product sound good), some movies which were made by the same company and probably shsot several times till they look exaclty the way VALVE wanted them too, and a leaked version of the game over a year old. The fact of the matter is we dont reeally have a clue what HL2 AI is gonna be like, andd most of the stuff peopel are saying here is jsut speculation (some of it informed, some not so much).

 

[MaDMaXX]

The AI in HL2 is really quite smart, very nice to play against.

 

[Direwolf]

Our best tool to infer the AI's ability was in the E3 vids where they showed the same scene twice (strider attack). From the differences that pop up in that battle I think we can incur that its pretty good.

 

[MaDMaXX]

hmm, it was an interesting indication, though playing against them really gives you a feel for it. If they know you're there (and you duck behind cover) then you hide,if they can see a bit of you, they will shoot at you, if they can't get half a shot in, they will move round (not necessarily towards) until they can get more shots in.

 

[ViolenceJack]

Your statement lost reliability when you said somin along the lines of "I know a friend who knows a friend which knows" i mean its a classic and 99% of the time it means its total bull. Im guessing this friend of a friend is testing with vivendi but what i mean to ask is how would this friend of a friend know that the reason the game is delayed was because valve were trying to make the AI independent with no major scripting. Did he get some memo saying that when he started testing, i doubt it.

There has to be some form of scripting in there which is at least telling this NPC to say somin at this point but most of the stuff would be without like reactions. Say when the moniter was pushed over in the old vid, that could be set up as just a reaction by the NPC

 

[marshmallow]

Everytime a new fps comes out everyone talks about the "new" AI. AI is one of those meaningless marketing phrases that a lot of savy gamers seem to fall for...wow, they can shoot you! And move in groups! And throw grenades! And chase you!

Welcome to 1997.

For this game's purposes, there's nothing insanely new to harken a new age of gaming in terms of "AI."

 

[boomyak]

has anyone here actually PLAYED farcry? that game was magnificantly difficult to finish because the AI was truely frightening. I mean, if one guy sees you along, he might try to take you out himself, or run up the hill to call for reinforcements, then upon the reinforcements seeing you, you can actually hear and see the leader giving hand signals and screaming things like "LEFT FLANK!" and see several bodies dissapear into the foliage in that direction. to see group dynamics play out in real time, and seeing and hearing their own "AI" being played out in front of me was very convincing, what in 1997 could do that?

 

[DieH@rd]

super mario 2 1/3

relax guys... lets wait and see hl2
just few weeks more

 

[L337_Assasain]

The soldiers in Farcry didn't give hand signals, they did use group tactics though.