HL2 map sizes

[obsidian]

I cant find any info anywhere on this but someone may know. What are the max map sizes Source can handle? Would map sizes like those in Battlefield be possible?

 

[Varsity]

Very large, search through the sticky to get the quote. BF sized maps are easily possible.

Edit:

Will Half-Life 2 be able to render large outdoor area's as seen in Battlefield 1942?

Gabe Newell: Yes

 

[sharp]

I cant find any info anywhere on this but someone may know. What are the max map sizes Source can handle? Would map sizes like those in Battlefield be possible?

What is the maximum map size for Half-Life 2?

The maximum map size is currently set at +/-16384
(16x the lateral space of Half-Life 1, 64x overall space).
It will take several minutes to cross the map in a vehicle.

 

[Brian Damage]

And apparently they will seem even bigger if you scale down the object sizes... though the physics will suffer if you scale down too far...

 

[obsidian]

16384 what, meters? ft?

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

units.

HL maps are +/- 4096 units maximum

 

[Brian Damage]

Units. And the units can be whatever you want them to be. Gordon is 33 units tall.

[EDIT]: Pi beat me...

Mmmmmmmm... Pi.

 

[el Chi]

I was wondering something along similar lines - in some screenshots (one or two were "non-spoiler" shots from the leak) and the Strider and Barricade videos, there are lots of large streets, and wide open spaces. Now does this mean that there will be an element of free-form roaming to the game? I mean, what's to stop running down the street away from the combine in Barricade? Or flee far down the road past the building where the second Strider comes from?
I think I might try and e-mail the good people at Valve, but I dunno if I'll get an answer :|

 

[obsidian]

if u have 1 unit per meter does that cause problems compared to 1unit per 10cm ?

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

you lose accuracy with the physics. If you scale down too much, the physics will break.

 

[PvtRyan]

In the game, I believe 1 unit = 1 inch
The physics are accurate to 1/32nd of a unit. I think you won't notice too much if you reduce the accuracy to 1/8th of a unit. Maybe wrong here though, but the map size would be 4 times bigger then.

 

[ComradeBadger]

Moved to Custom Map forum.

 

[Neutrino]

Units. And the units can be whatever you want them to be. Gordon is 33 units tall.

[EDIT]: Pi beat me...

Mmmmmmmm... Pi.

Actually I believe that gordon is 72 units tall. 1 unit = 1 inch. Thus he is six feet tall.

 

[ComradeBadger]

72 sounds right, with 128 being roughly the size of the average wall.

 

[Shinobi]

here is the famous picture depicting the different between HL and Source maps

 

[Kornflake™]

Looking at the image on the previous post, it would make a HL2 map potentially 64 times larger than one in HL1 (taking into account the X Y and Z axis).

 

[obsidian]

if 1 unit = 1 inch then the map isnt going to be able to that large ~500m. if the physics are accurate to 1/32 of an inch then i suppose for an outdoors setting 1unit = 32inches would be reasonable and would give u quite a few km/miles of map. or at 1unit = 8inches 2km of map. sounds pretty good.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

Bear in mind that it doesn't necessarily mean that you can see all the way across that distance.

 

[Shinobi]

setting the scale too high would make mapping a huge bitch

 

[ComradeBadger]

setting the scale too high would make mapping a huge bitch

Yup. And I don't think it's wise to **** about with the scale tbh.

 

[Neutrino]

if 1 unit = 1 inch then the map isnt going to be able to that large ~500m. if the physics are accurate to 1/32 of an inch then i suppose for an outdoors setting 1unit = 32inches would be reasonable and would give u quite a few km/miles of map. or at 1unit = 8inches 2km of map. sounds pretty good.

If one unit equals one inch then a map will be about a quarter mile on a side. That's still pretty large really. The reason I say that 1 unit equals 1 inch is because that is the way it is in HL1 and I doubt they would change it. Also, like has been said before, I think messing with the scaling would be a real pain when you have to take into account the physics system.

 

[Kadayi]

Words of caution:-

New maps 16 x the original size of HL¹ doesn't mean that they will be able to sustain/handle 16 x the numbers of entities as the original game however.

There are no exact figures on entity limits at this point in time (it's a balancing act between numbers and model complexity anyway), but if the engines capable of handling 4 times the originals limits, that would be an achievement.

 

[Farrowlesparrow]

The closest thing to an entity count i heard, was someone emailing gabe asking if you would be able to place 2000 NPCs on a map for a battle or something of the sort, he said it wouldnt work.

 

[FictiousWill]

Keep in mind that most HL maps are actually groups of smaller maps that link up. Unless you absolutely must have a huge desert in one scene, then there's no reason to make such huge maps, especially for urban settings. All the map size increase does is remove the size constraint. It doesn't mean all maps must now be made much larger.

 

[Kadayi]

The closest thing to an entity count i heard, was someone emailing gabe asking if you would be able to place 2000 NPCs on a map for a battle or something of the sort, he said it wouldnt work.

If it hits 500 I'd be impressed.

Keep in mind that most HL maps are actually groups of smaller maps that link up. Unless you absolutely must have a huge desert in one scene, then there's no reason to make such huge maps, especially for urban settings. All the map size increase does is remove the size constraint. It doesn't mean all maps must now be made much larger.

Agreed. Vigourous intelligent planning will be everything.

 

[Shinobi]

500?

the entity count in HL1 is 512!


I think when gabe uses the 2000 person fighting analogy he means because they are fully functional characters etc...

as for invisible entities like triggers and scripts, who knows...

But what I think is that they should jsut hard code the limit to a really high number and leave it to the mappers to desin their maps to play well...

 

[Neutrino]

500?

the entity count in HL1 is 512!


I think when gabe uses the 2000 person fighting analogy he means because they are fully functional characters etc...

I think the issue with 500 characters would have more to do with the fact that the on screen poly count would be drastically high.

 

[Shinobi]

that's what I was hinting at,, 2000 animated characters moving about

 

[Neutrino]

that's what I was hinting at,, 2000 animated characters moving about

Ya, just saying that I don't think them being animated and moving about would have much to do with it. I think that just that many polies on screen would be way too much.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

Every character also uses a chunk of bandwidth (if it's an online thing), so you're also limited in that regard.

 

[Shinobi]

polygons,, constantly translating vertices,, tons of texture information,, it all contributes to performance degredation,, not just one aspect

 

[Dux]

Curious to what the limit of max_leaf_faces, general max_map limits, max_map_clipnodes, max_map_miptex, maxmap_models, max_patches, max_map_planes, maxpoints, max_portals_onleaf, max_switched_lights or what they have done to replace these type of limitations for more flexibillity.

Obviously they wont be identicle (then again they may) but to someone who wanted to make a large map in the hl1 engine it was a difficult but not impossible task you just had to be carefull to how you built it. And as Half-life 2 is said to have large map possiblities I'm curious as to how large and detailed you can make a map before one of these limits kicks in. As they are still using Worldcraft I'd think that these limits have been placed into source, just with a larger limit.

 

[Shinobi]

well worldcraft is kind of like a frontend,, so using it again for the source engine won't require them to keep anything legacy,,

it's impossible to tell right now,, but there's always the common sense techniques,, ie: keeping the polycount managable and have decent LOD's a lot of mapping knowlege for stuff like that is engine indepentdant,,,, as for advanced vis blocking etc... we'll just have to wait till the game comes out

 

[Kadayi]

I think the issue with 500 characters would have more to do with the fact that the on screen poly count would be drastically high.

That's the gist of what I meant. HL² characters are going to be a lot more demanding even with increased engine capabilities than HL¹ were.

 

[Farrowlesparrow]

Just out of interest...Do you know the average polly count for a hl character, for example a scientist?

 

[Dux]

Original Scientist 740
High Definition Pack 1486

 

[Farrowlesparrow]

I see...So its a fair bit more for hl2 then. Although wasnt there something about models being very limited compared to what people first thought?

 

[Kadayi]

I see...So its a fair bit more for hl2 then. Although wasnt there something about models being very limited compared to what people first thought?

Edit: Misread what you wrote.

 

[Dux]

Myself and some mates redesigned the Marine Model and ended up comming in at a tasty 6521 polys.

 

[The Dark Elf]

Here's an example for those people who think their gonna build huge sprawling cityscapes in source

Large map - detail very sparse, boring looking maps, mostly in the open and dull

small map - nice rich detail, impressive maps

If you want large maps with tons of detail, entities, brushes. Then licence the engine from Valve and code it that way. Mod teams forget building your exact replica's of some city within a single large map, it just ain't gonna happen in source unless you get the licence and code it that way yourself. EOD