How to refute creationists with merely a bucket of feces

[Atomic_Piggy]

http://saintgasoline.com/2007/12/01/refuting-creationists-with-only-a-bucket-of-feces/

 

[Rapstah]

Would, say, a cup of feces work?

 

[K e r b e r o s]

I'm not exactly about carrying a bucket of shit with me.

 

[nurizeko]

I just point out the remnant pelvic bone in whales, not as messy but the same concept.

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

Well I'm and old Earth creationist. God sent out a mighty lighting bolt and created cells, etc etc.

 

[mchammer75040]

This must be atheistlife2.net conference day or something.

 

[Jintor]

Damn straight.

 

[Tagaziel]

Two Fundies, One Cup?

 

[Kadayi]

I'm not a God botherer, but as a bemused observer of the whole war on religion thing I have to say I find the whole seemingly endless attacks on the Christian faith thing rather tiresome. Sure there are a few wack jobs amongst the Christians, but people believe in completely irrational & illogical things all the time (like love, fair play or democracy for example). What I don't see is the same people bitching out the Muslim faith or the Hebrews, the core tenements of who's faiths are entirely the same (same God after all). So why the lack of bear baiting there? Why isn't Saintgasoline or any of his ilk bitching out those guys? Why aren't they out there protesting outside the Synagogues & Mosques? Why isn't Dawkins out there right now in Saudi Arabia telling the Muslim world that Allah is myth, or jetting off to Israel to tell the Israelis that their God is false and they have no rights to the Land they claim? In fact why stop there? By rights he should be pissing in the ears of every Amazonian tribe, and indigenous people throughout the world with their quaint 'primitive' beliefs and rituals? They are small in number, no doubt with some vigorous debate with a few tribal leaders he could probably dismantle quite a few of them in a matter of years if he put his mind to it. Why go for one of the big ones first, when there are so many minnows out there that can be easily caught? Why instead is he simply spending his time repeatedly cock slapping in the face people, who despite their disagreements with his arguments simply aren't going to do more than vehemently disagree with him these days because of religious tolerance? If one is going to take a position, it should be universal and without distinction, anything less is simply hollow intellectual Schadenfreude. :dozey:

 

[delusional]

Because we are in the western world where Christianity is dominant maybe?

 

[Kadayi]

Because we are in the western world where Christianity is dominant maybe?

Is Christianity enforced by law or is it by personal choice? Because unless it's enforced it hardly constitutes as dominant, popular maybe but nothing more. Much like being made to eat your greens when you're young, your parents might well raise you through their belief system, but when your grown up your not obliged to legally continue are you? There are far more insidious 'religions' out there than Christianity, and I find the constant trolling of it alone lame in the extreme. :dozey:

 

[Jintor]

You're very obligated to continue in that faith system if you're indoctrinated from youth, though.

 

[Eejit]

I think you're mixing the word "obligated" up with something else there Jintor, cause that's incorrect.

(SEMANTICS LOL?)

 

[Avoidist]

I think you're mixing the word "obligated" up with something else there Jintor, cause that's incorrect.

(SEMANTICS LOL?)

That made perfect sense to me. Perhaps pressured, expected or strongly encouraged are better terms? Anyway, here's a good xkcd comic:

Spoiler

 

[Kadayi]

You're very obligated to continue in that faith system if you're indoctrinated from youth, though.

Very obligated? What kind of weak assed statement is that 'very obligated' vs 'penalty of death' perhaps? Where there is the freedom of personal choice there is little need for tirades.

 

[delusional]

Is Christianity enforced by law or is it by personal choice? Because unless it's enforced it hardly constitutes as dominant, popular maybe but nothing more. Much like being made to eat your greens when you're young, your parents might well raise you through their belief system, but when your grown up your not obliged to legally continue are you? There are far more insidious 'religions' out there than Christianity, and I find the constant trolling of it alone lame in the extreme. :dozey:

But the beliefs of someone in some far off place has no effect on me or the western world, while Christianity has a much more direct effect on the western world. going over to middle of the amazon to tell the shamans they are wrong will have no benefit towards the western world. Telling Christians they are wrong will have an effect on the western world.

 

[Saturos]

I'm not a God botherer, but as a bemused observer of the whole war on religion thing I have to say I find the whole seemingly endless attacks on the Christian faith thing rather tiresome. Sure there are a few wack jobs amongst the Christians, but people believe in completely irrational & illogical things all the time (like love, fair play or democracy for example). What I don't see is the same people bitching out the Muslim faith or the Hebrews, the core tenements of who's faiths are entirely the same (same God after all). So why the lack of bear baiting there? Why isn't Saintgasoline or any of his ilk bitching out those guys? Why aren't they out there protesting outside the Synagogues & Mosques? Why isn't Dawkins out there right now in Saudi Arabia telling the Muslim world that Allah is myth, or jetting off to Israel to tell the Israelis that their God is false and they have no rights to the Land they claim? In fact why stop there? By rights he should be pissing in the ears of every Amazonian tribe, and indigenous people throughout the world with their quaint 'primitive' beliefs and rituals? They are small in number, no doubt with some vigorous debate with a few tribal leaders he could probably dismantle quite a few of them in a matter of years if he put his mind to it. Why go for one of the big ones first, when there are so many minnows out there that can be easily caught? Why instead is he simply spending his time repeatedly cock slapping in the face people, who despite their disagreements with his arguments simply aren't going to do more than vehemently disagree with him these days because of religious tolerance? If one is going to take a position, it should be universal and without distinction, anything less is simply hollow intellectual Schadenfreude. :dozey:

Is Christianity enforced by law or is it by personal choice? Because unless it's enforced it hardly constitutes as dominant, popular maybe but nothing more. Much like being made to eat your greens when you're young, your parents might well raise you through their belief system, but when your grown up your not obliged to legally continue are you? There are far more insidious 'religions' out there than Christianity, and I find the constant trolling of it alone lame in the extreme. :dozey:

I can see your point. Aren't you an atheist too though? If other atheists can see this, then it's obviously out of control. I'm tired of everyone trolling the christian faith too and calling them "bible thumpers"all the time. The whole situation is utter bullsh** imo. Why does it seem that everyone is targeting the christians all the time? Not all of them are judgemental and say stuff like ,"ooh, your going to hell because your wearing black and play violent video games". Granted, those types aren't true Christians anyways and are out to suit their own agenda most of the time. I know former Hell's Angels bikers who are now Christian, they are more approachable than the former ilk who dresses up like Mormons and judge and preach to everyone. Nobody's perfect, I mean sh** guys.

 

[Kadayi]

But the beliefs of someone in some far off place has no effect on me or the western world, while Christianity has a much more direct effect on the western world. going over to middle of the amazon to tell the shamans they are wrong will have no benefit towards the western world. Telling Christians they are wrong will have an effect on the western world.

Would you say the same about the Muslim faith that it doesn't have an impact upon the western world? I mean, correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure that Osama & his pals are pretty big on the whole praise be to Allah & mohammed was his prophet thing. :dozey:

Aren't you an atheist too though?

I certainly don't hold with any established religions, or the notion of an omnipotent and all knowing godhead, so I guess that qualifies me as an Atheist, but I'd say there's a big distance between me and people like The Dawkins, I think he's a complete hypocrite and does more harm than good.

 

[Acepilotf14]

Atomic_Piggy should be banned from making threads about creationists. It's really starting to get old.

 

[99.vikram]

I'd say there's a big distance between me and people like The Dawkins, I think he's a complete hypocrite and does more harm than good.

He may be doing more harm than good, but he's no hypocrite.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Is Christianity enforced by law or is it by personal choice? Because unless it's enforced it hardly constitutes as dominant, popular maybe but nothing more. Much like being made to eat your greens when you're young, your parents might well raise you through their belief system, but when your grown up your not obliged to legally continue are you? There are far more insidious 'religions' out there than Christianity, and I find the constant trolling of it alone lame in the extreme.

You have every right to make me you're bitch concerning are various asundry debates about Palestine and Israel -- but you sir, today, are full of win.

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

Well it just seems to me that sometimes evolution seems guided, other times it seems random. I don't know. And ant seems random, their life style seems guided. same for the nude mole. migration seems guided, the things that do it usually seem random. a caterpillar evolved to look like a snake seems guided, but the thing itself seems random

whatever.

 

[Eejit]

Well it just seems to me that sometimes evolution seems guided, other times it seems random. I don't know. And ant seems random, their life style seems guided. same for the nude mole. migration seems guided, the things that do it usually seem random. a caterpillar evolved to look like a snake seems guided, but the thing itself seems random

whatever.

Gogo Cosmic-Ghost! -.-

ID is bullshit. If you want to argue that God 'gave humans souls' at some stage of us involving intelligence I won't try to contradict you, feel free to believe that. But any other 'intervention' is simply bullcrap.


Wait, I just blasphemed against the almighty Platypus. Oh shi-

 

[[Dragoon]]

I'm not a God botherer, but as a bemused observer of the whole war on religion thing I have to say I find the whole seemingly endless attacks on the Christian faith thing rather tiresome. Sure there are a few wack jobs amongst the Christians, but people believe in completely irrational & illogical things all the time (like love, fair play or democracy for example). What I don't see is the same people bitching out the Muslim faith or the Hebrews, the core tenements of who's faiths are entirely the same (same God after all). So why the lack of bear baiting there? Why isn't Saintgasoline or any of his ilk bitching out those guys? Why aren't they out there protesting outside the Synagogues & Mosques? Why isn't Dawkins out there right now in Saudi Arabia telling the Muslim world that Allah is myth, or jetting off to Israel to tell the Israelis that their God is false and they have no rights to the Land they claim? In fact why stop there? By rights he should be pissing in the ears of every Amazonian tribe, and indigenous people throughout the world with their quaint 'primitive' beliefs and rituals? They are small in number, no doubt with some vigorous debate with a few tribal leaders he could probably dismantle quite a few of them in a matter of years if he put his mind to it. Why go for one of the big ones first, when there are so many minnows out there that can be easily caught? Why instead is he simply spending his time repeatedly cock slapping in the face people, who despite their disagreements with his arguments simply aren't going to do more than vehemently disagree with him these days because of religious tolerance? If one is going to take a position, it should be universal and without distinction, anything less is simply hollow intellectual Schadenfreude. :dozey:

I don't really care what other people believe in most cases, but when it's the people who were elected to represent us in making important decisions that affect all of our lives it's a little different.

 

[jverne]

I can see your point. Aren't you an atheist too though? If other atheists can see this, then it's obviously out of control. I'm tired of everyone trolling the christian faith too and calling them "bible thumpers"all the time. The whole situation is utter bullsh** imo. Why does it seem that everyone is targeting the christians all the time? Not all of them are judgemental and say stuff like ,"ooh, your going to hell because your wearing black and play violent video games". Granted, those types aren't true Christians anyways and are out to suit their own agenda most of the time. I know former Hell's Angels bikers who are now Christian, they are more approachable than the former ilk who dresses up like Mormons and judge and preach to everyone. Nobody's perfect, I mean sh** guys.

i sense you never heard of moderate religion?

i have no problem while religion keeps their dogma to itself, stop imposing it to others. stop giving rules that have no base whatsoever.

atheist don't do that, although it just seems today...they just want to get rid of religion being such a decisive factor in our public life. once religion would be gone from the public sphere humanity, science could start developing freely without having to bother if someone gets insulted by it.


in short....

religion says "you'll do it my way or no way"
atheism says "you can do it however you like, just prove me wrong"

 

[Kadayi]

He may be doing more harm than good, but he's no hypocrite.

Ok maybe 'hypocrite' is the wrong word (it was pretty late when I was writing), but I just don't think his ideas and arguments are as all encompassing as he purports. I certainly don't hold with the evolutionary biologist assumption that humanity possesses some natural inbuilt morality, that keeps us in check. Perhaps I'm alone in this but I vividly recall witnessing enough unruly and frankly sadistic behavior in the playground when I was a young child to know that there is nothing inherently moral going on. We are born animals and taught/raised to be humans.

You have every right to make me you're bitch concerning are various asundry debates about Palestine and Israel -- but you sir, today, are full of win.

That's very kind of you to say.

I don't really care what other people believe in most cases, but when it's the people who were elected to represent us in making important decisions that affect all of our lives it's a little different.

If someone is elected to represent the will of the people surely his personal beliefs shouldn't figure into it at all if he/she is doing their job correctly no? I mean I might oppose the Death Penalty because I think it cruel, but if the majority of people believe it just, shouldn't I as their representative support their position? Also belief is one thing, acting on those beliefs is an entirely different matter surely? Bill Clinton was a bold faced liar (I did not inhale, I did not have sex ...) and an adulterer when he was in office, but he ran the Country pretty well for two terms so no one really gave a shit what he did on/thought on his own time, even when Ken Starr was trying his damnest to get him impeached. Kennedy as well, the man couldn't help himself when it came to sticking his cock in anything that moved, but he's hailed as a great president. Sure I'd be wary of any man claiming that he is a creationist, but as long as he isn't going to impose those beliefs on society through legal measures I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[[Matt]]

Is Christianity enforced by law or is it by personal choice? Because unless it's enforced it hardly constitutes as dominant, popular maybe but nothing more. Much like being made to eat your greens when you're young, your parents might well raise you through their belief system, but when your grown up your not obliged to legally continue are you? There are far more insidious 'religions' out there than Christianity, and I find the constant trolling of it alone lame in the extreme. :dozey:

In my country we have state funded Christianity with the queen as the head of the church for which the funding comes straight out of my taxes. We also have christian based religious programs shown on the BBC every Sunday funded once again from my own pocket via the TV licence fee. Although the anglican church is a relatively benign for of christianity compared to whats prevalent in the US I still think i have a right to complain

As for the original post it makes a good point. Think of all the criminals in jail that were put there based on forensic evidence alone? Would we set them free because no one directly observed their crimes?

 

[nurizeko]

Christianity gets beef because its basically one of the Abrahamic faiths, AKA one of the largest offenders in the grand scheme of religious superstition and foolery.

There are indeed moderate Christians, and my parents are two (I help them when their church does charity events) and I am entirely capable of keeping my feelings to myself, or even ignoring them.

However, the internet, god bless its awesomeness (excuse the saying) allows me to hold no such social politeness for the sake of peace and civil discourse.


On the intranets I get to say it as it is and how I see it.

On the internet if I want to tell a stranger that I believe their god is just an imaginary friend, I can, just as a Christian may tell me, if they so wish, I am going to burn in the Earth's mantle, sorry, hell.


Don't get me wrong, religion was a good try when humanity didn't know any better, but in this day and age where heaven is now known as space and hell is basically the hot innards of the earth, and with every new scientific discovery faith has had to take several steps back, whats the point?.

Will people still be claiming god exists when humanity is going about changing entire solar systems at a whim, and making stars but mere play things?.

The ultimate irony I think is that for all the fervent belief in an imaginary deity, its science which will allow us to become ourselves as near to godhood as possible, should humanity survive long enough.


[/rant you, very much]

 

[Absinthe]

Christianity gets a lot of heat on these boards and in a lot of western society because it is both the predominant religion of the region and because its influence is perceived more easily than the religious happenings on the other side of the globe. Dawkins is no different. I can't say I quite understand your venom against him, Kadayi. It's fair game to disagree with his views on the origins of morality. But his focus on Christianity is a pragmatic one. His audience is more likely to be of the Christian faith than any other one. The growth of Islam throughout Europe aside, it just makes sense to target beliefs that are understood or relatable by most people. Besides, many of his arguments against the Christian god can be applied to other deities, and his attacks are more often general transcendental arguments than scriptural ones. More importantly, he argues heavily from the perspective of an evolutionary biologist stance (evolution v. creationism). "The God Delusion" spends a good deal of its time going into this. I don't think it makes sense to accuse him of being hypocritical or blindly single-minded. At least not in this case.

But I digress. I too have come to tire of Christian "bashing". Well, to a certain extent. Not enough people are equal in their criticism when it comes to faith. Christianity catches all the flak, but it's like everybody locks their safety back on when it comes to Islam or the multitude of other faiths that populate the planet. Especially when Christianity today, despite all its backward existence in the world of modernity, can't compare to the kind of God-fueled aggression and violence that takes place in the Middle East. It's a shame that Anti-Muslimism has become so intertwined with racism. Then there's always the BS "Oh, that's not Islam's fault! It's the economy/culture/resources/government/foreign meddling that makes suicide bombers so angry!".

Most people here would never give Christianity the same slack.

 

[jverne]

Christianity gets beef because its basically one of the Abrahamic faiths, AKA one of the largest offenders in the grand scheme of religious superstition and foolery.

There are indeed moderate Christians, and my parents are two (I help them when their church does charity events) and I am entirely capable of keeping my feelings to myself, or even ignoring them.

However, the internet, god bless its awesomeness (excuse the saying) allows me to hold no such social politeness for the sake of peace and civil discourse.


On the intranets I get to say it as it is and how I see it.

On the internet if I want to tell a stranger that I believe their god is just an imaginary friend, I can, just as a Christian may tell me, if they so wish, I am going to burn in the Earth's mantle, sorry, hell.


Don't get me wrong, religion was a good try when humanity didn't know any better, but in this day and age where heaven is now known as space and hell is basically the hot innards of the earth, and with every new scientific discovery faith has had to take several steps back, whats the point?.

Will people still be claiming god exists when humanity is going about changing entire solar systems at a whim, and making stars but mere play things?.

The ultimate irony I think is that for all the fervent belief in an imaginary deity, its science which will allow us to become ourselves as near to godhood as possible, should humanity survive long enough.


[/rant you, very much]

i have the answer to the last statement...yes idiots will always believe in a deity.

even after humans would become immortal, master the universe and other dimensions, making christmas lights with big bangs. they'll still just say god was first. because of practical immortality they'll just need to raise the boundary to go to heaven. then they'll say you just have to wait till the end of space and time to go to god.

simple idiocy can conquer the most perfect scientific accomplishment, without breaking a sweat.

 

[Narvi]

People aren't bothering the Muslims because they're scared of them, actually. They didn't do it before September 11th because nobody actually cared that much about them then. Besides, Christianity is the most prevalent religion in the western world, so people are exposed to its beliefs quite often.

And complaining about Dawkins bothering only with Christianity is silly. He's focusing on the big fish. I haven't seen his arguments, but never have I heard that he puts the problems of Christianity down to it exclusively. Besides which his intention appears to be not to change the minds of the extremists, but to present his arguments before the moderates, and eventually have atheism gain acceptance as a valid option, instead of the socially stigmatic one it is currently.

If he went to Saudi Arabia he'd just get shot and burned and killed, and people there would be happy about it.

And it's not a socially viable option to actually admit to atheism. You could say that you are an agnostic and "just confused about it" and get away with it, but if you say that you're an atheist, people get offended.

Oh, and I used to be a Muslim myself, and only became an atheist last year, but believe me when I say that if I ever told any of my friends or family, I would suffer horribly for not believing in a god who makes retarded rules for retarded reasons.

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

People aren't bothering the Muslims because they're scared of them, actually. They didn't do it before September 11th because nobody actually cared that much about them then. Besides, Christianity is the most prevalent religion in the western world, so people are exposed to its beliefs quite often.

And complaining about Dawkins bothering only with Christianity is silly. He's focusing on the big fish. I haven't seen his arguments, but never have I heard that he puts the problems of Christianity down to it exclusively. Besides which his intention appears to be not to change the minds of the extremists, but to present his arguments before the moderates, and eventually have atheism gain acceptance as a valid option, instead of the socially stigmatic one it is currently.

If he went to Saudi Arabia he'd just get shot and burned and killed, and people there would be happy about it.

And it's not a socially viable option to actually admit to atheism. You could say that you are an agnostic and "just confused about it" and get away with it, but if you say that you're an atheist, people get offended.

Oh, and I used to be a Muslim myself, and only became an atheist last year, but believe me when I say that if I ever told any of my friends or family, I would suffer horribly for not believing in a god who makes retarded rules for retarded reasons.

Where do you live? And also most people, in my experiance, don't care if I'm an atheist.

 

[Gray Fox]

I disagree with absinthe, I believe economy/culture/resources/
government/foreign meddling are often
responsible for creating the situation in which religion can
thrive. It's not by accident that most extremism of any kind is
located in poor countries.

And a lot of people are willing to overlook that, especially if
it concerns any responsibility the west has in the current
situation. Religion has become a convenient way to dismiss any
secular notions of unfairness.

Plus more often then not means of fighting war are
used to excuse a political position. Which to me is unfair,
seeing as that would always make the guys with the precision
weapons the good guys, and that guys that have no other choice
but to use "dirty" tactics the bad guys. This is especially
apparent when concerning the Palestinians.

Any nation can be made extreme if you put enough pressure on it's
citizens, weather or not that extremism takes the form of religion,
fascism, Stalinism or whatever is irrelevant.

History has showed that religious extremisms can only be fought by
improving the education system, the economy, and rest. And that
means addressing the economy, addressing the government, addressing
your own countries foreign policy against that country.
And off course that doesn't mean we should just ignore religion
and condone it's followers actions. But extremist religion is as much
if not more a symptom then a cause of a countries strife.

 

[Narvi]

Where do you live? And also most people, in my experiance, don't care if I'm an atheist.

The Maldives.

And of course it depends on where you live.

 

[jverne]

I disagree with absinthe, I believe economy/culture/resources/
government/foreign meddling are often
responsible for creating the situation in which religion can
thrive. It's not by accident that most extremism of any kind is
located in poor countries.

And a lot of people are willing to overlook that, especially if
it concerns any responsibility the west has in the current
situation. Religion has become a convenient way to dismiss any
secular notions of unfairness.

Plus more often then not means of fighting war are
used to excuse a political position. Which to me is unfair,
seeing as that would always make the guys with the precision
weapons the good guys, and that guys that have no other choice
but to use "dirty" tactics the bad guys. This is especially
apparent when concerning the Palestinians.

Any nation can be made extreme if you put enough pressure on it's
citizens, weather or not that extremism takes the form of religion,
fascism, Stalinism or whatever is irrelevant.

History has showed that religious extremisms can only be fought by
improving the education system, the economy, and rest. And that
means addressing the economy, addressing the government, addressing
your own countries foreign policy against that country.
And off course that doesn't mean we should just ignore religion
and condone it's followers actions. But extremist religion is as much
if not more a symptom then a cause of a countries strife.

i agree with most of it. that is also why Christianity gets the most flak, because in the western world people are educated enough to see it bullshit. why are they educated? because of the "good" social and financial condition the society is in.

why doesn't islam get battered. because most countries with it are a cesspools of filth and misery. the funny things is that their leaders don't give a **** about it.

 

[Saturos]

Will people still be claiming god exists when humanity is going about changing entire solar systems at a whim, and making stars but mere play things?.

The ultimate irony I think is that for all the fervent belief in an imaginary deity, its science which will allow us to become ourselves as near to godhood as possible, should humanity survive long enough.
[/rant you, very much]

Just curious, but if the notion that humans could possibly possess a technological level to possibly claim "god-hood" in like a hundred billion years or so, then why is it so hard to believe that some other entity created the universe in the first place? I don't get it. Is it the intelligent part of the design that's impossible, or is there some beef against the thought of, "a god" or, "God himself"? :| Maybe God's technology is so advanced that he could just simply speak the universe into exsistence you know? It's not that crazy considering that people used to think the world was flat about 600 years ago. Not very long ago really. We are still a very young race with much to learn.

 

[jverne]

Just curious, but if the notion that humans could possibly possess a technological level to possibly claim "god-hood" in like a hundred billion years or so, then why is it so hard to believe that some other entity created the universe in the first place? I don't get it. Is it the intelligent part of the design that's impossible, or is there some beef against the thought of, "a god" or, "God himself"? :| Maybe God's technology is so advanced that he could just simply speak the universe into exsistence you know? It's not that crazy considering that people used to think the world was flat about 600 years ago. Not very long ago really. We are still a very young race with much to learn.

well actually you are correct but this is another issue we're talking about.

we talk about a god who just is there and did everything we know no questions asked (the god our religions portray). we are not talking about some beings that became god-like trough technical evolution/advancement.

if it was the second case i'd probably be fine with. i have no problem with some (evolving/evolved) being spawning everything we know of. yes it would make my life miserable knowing that everything we see is just an illusion, a reality show for those beings.

we currently have no evidence for either of the two. it's just that the second is far more believable and less contradictory.

this issue is nicely portrayed in the Stargate series (Ancients/Ori).

 

[99.vikram]

We are still a very young race with much to learn.

That's what Optimus Prime keeps saying...

 

[Saturos]

well actually you are correct but this is another issue we're talking about.

we talk about a god who just is there and did everything we know no questions asked (the god our religions portray). we are not talking about some beings that became god-like trough technical evolution/advancement.

if it was the second case i'd probably be fine with. i have no problem with some (evolving/evolved) being spawning everything we know of. yes it would make my life miserable knowing that everything we see is just an illusion, a reality show for those beings.

we currently have no evidence for either of the two. it's just that the second is far more believable and less contradictory.

this issue is nicely portrayed in the Stargate series (Ancients/Ori).

If you're into RPG games, then you should play Star Ocean:Till The End Of Time for the PS2, like, right now.:thumbs: Has a very similar plot/scenario that I think you'll find interesting. Plus, it's one of the better RPG's out there for PS2.

That's what Optimus Prime keeps saying...

Heh, I never thought about that, but he does say that in TF:the movie.:E My subconscious response perhaps?

 

[Moonraker]

in the end NOBODY knows what went on long ago or where we came from, we theorize and try to make sense of minute clues but we DONT KNOW nither creationist or evolutionist. so its all stupid arguing anyhow, im pretty tired of these threads calling the creationists stupid. i mean it almost seems like an excuse to bash 'God-beleivers' and that is far too common here. if you believe there is a God, thats great, if you dont, thats great too, stop arguing over it, its not helping one single thing.