i cannot believe we havent had a good old fashioned abortion discussion

[qckbeam]

Adoption seems obvious if you're pro-life, however if you're prochoice, then you dont see the lil guy as alive. Which means in that sense you're forcing the mother to have a child for someone else. Forcing people to have babies for people is obviously wrong...

But the way I see it no one is forcing anyone to have children. No one forced the mother to have sex (if they did then abortion is, in my opinion, a valid option). No one forced her to start the process of creating a child. If she willfully made that first step knowing full well what could happen, then it was a choice. Sex is great fun and everything, but the participants must understand the consequences. You can't just hit the delete key on a human life without reason. I don't see what is so unreasonable about this stance. If the mother willfully engages in intercourse and ends up pregnant she shouldn't, save for a medical situation, be allowed to simply terminate the process at will. There is a life growing inside of you. You started this process; you can bear the consequences of it for nine months and then give the baby to an adoptive family if you wish.

I don't see how people can say a fetus is comparable to a chunk of skin either. If you leave the fetus alone, in nine months time it will leave the womb and grow into a fully developed human being...do skin cells do this and I just wasn't aware of it or what?

 

[Steve]

If you think it's that much of a problem jump of a cliff. Come on, be a hero.



..Didn't think so.

I will... if you come with me.




...didn't think so.

 

[Raziaar]

Adults shouldn't be allowed to abort babies. Babies should be allowed to abort adults!

Okay, that didn't make any sense. But it wasn't supposed to. I'm tired and going to bed. Heh.

Seriously though, I don't approve of it, but not sure if there should be a law for it. Even if there wasn't a law, I still hold no respect for a mother who kills her child. Only in rape situations would I condone it.

I don't look kindly upon women who are so keen to have sex(especially teenagers), yet so abhored by the sole purpose of procreation. Nature intended species to have sex to reproduce, not simply for the pleasure of sex. If you don't want babies, then get your damn tubes tied! Yes, guys can have it done too! And it's reversible too, I believe, should you ever choose to at some point in your life settle down to have a child.

Heh, seriously though, I think population overcrowding could be solved by tying a child's tubes when they are young, and so should the people desire to have a child, then they could get them untied. No unwanted pregnancies. I'm not saying I would support something such as that, just saying that it would solve most problems regarding unplanned pregnancies.

 

[Dedalus]

ok where to start...

because the person has made a mistake, does not mean they should live with it. that doesnt mean they should keep the child, there is a massive market of available adoption clients, and thats precisely where the child should go. or maybe we should just kill it

yeah i agree with you, adoption is a valid course of action.

see above. doesnt it seem barbaric to you to just kill something that has a perfectly reasonble chance at having a life just like you or me?

of course it's always barbaric to end any life. naturally we'd have to ascertain at what stage of development the foetus was at, and at what stage it could be called 'alive'. but for me, ending it right there is less barbaric then subjecting the child to a potential life in poverty. you'll often find, a lot of unwanted pregnancies occur in the lower to middle classes of society. the kind of people who don't have enough savings to support their children, and have to take out huge governmet grants/benefits and end up working all day everyday to pay it off, and spend no time raising the child.

Those are valid points, but rather than kill the child (or terminate the pregnancy, however you'd like to phrase it) why not just give it up for adoption? There are so, so many couples who would make wonderful parents and cannot have children themselves, and so are trying to adopt. There are thousands upon thousands of people out there, just waiting for their baby. I know from personal experience that the wait for a child can often turn out to be years, simply because the number of children to adopt is tiny compared to the number of parents trying to adopt. I don't understand how you could say yes to unrestricted abortions when the alternative of letting the child live and grow up in a home with parents that love him or her is such a viable one.

yep yep. completely agree with the adoption part.

That's a pretty crazy theory considering how many of these unwanted children would end up in the homes of adoptive parents and grow up to be happy, functional people. No offense or anything of course

yes i know, i'm a nutter

As for your last statement, about how the parents should decide and that's that, I can't fully agree. Once again, I believe that in certain cases the parents should be allowed to decide, but if two grown adults engage in consensual sex while fully aware of the consequences and end up with a perfectly healthy and normal pregnancy on their hands, termination should not be on option. You'd be putting a stop to a process that in nine short months would produce a normal, healthy human being that could easily be placed into the arms of adoptive parents to live a happy life under their guidance. I'm a firm believer that it is very much our business to make sure life is not ended needlessly.

one huge point you guys are missing, is that the process of giving birth to the child doesn't stop when it pops out of it's mother. the parents have to raise the child too. that's a huge burden. ask people who already have kids.

i mean, my parents are always telling me how they used to go out all the time and have so much fun with their disposable income, then i popped out and that was their life down the tube. of course they're doing it in jest (i hope), but it made me understand that having a child is one thing, but raising them - and doing it properly - is a lifetime investment. not everyone is fit to raise a child. yeah like you say, adoption is an option, and one that i support.

please hammer this into your heads though, because it's a fallacy in your thinking. it's spiffing to force the parents into having the kid, fine, that's your argument won. but what happens afterwards? there's another human being to raise. it doesn't happen by magic. there seems to be a large amount of apathy towards raising the child. you'll argue to death about the unborn child's right to live, but you're unwilling to argue points or provide better facilities to help raise that child. "they have to pay for their misdemeanour" is a very weak argument, and one borne from ignorance and immaturity i believe.

honestly, adoption aside, what option is there for the parents who are expecting a child, but have no way in hell to raise it?

 

[MAx]

Do you people think parents are ok with just giving away their baby\babies? Christ people! What do you seriously think is worst for a parent: Giving away their child, or never have it?

No wait, don't answer me, I know what you'll say.


But just put yourselves in their shoes for one tiny second, would YOU enjoy having a baby at the age of 17? Or would you perhaps change your stance to abortion? Just think about it!

 

[HunterSeeker]

Abortion is ok before the fetus has developed a brain. It is not an indepenedent living being before that IMO, just a part of the mother.

 

[qckbeam]

please hammer this into your heads though, because it's a fallacy in your thinking. it's spiffing to force the parents into having the kid, fine, that's your argument won. but what happens afterwards? there's another human being to raise. it doesn't happen by magic. there seems to be a large amount of apathy towards raising the child. you'll argue to death about the unborn child's right to live, but you're unwilling to argue points or provide better facilities to help raise that child. "they have to pay for their misdemeanour" is a very weak argument, and one borne from ignorance and immaturity i believe.

honestly, adoption aside, what option is there for the parents who are expecting a child, but have no way in hell to raise it?

Why lay adoption to the side? It's an extremely viable option. There are organizations out there that will do everything they can to make sure the adoption process is smooth, quick, and basically as easy as possible for the birthmother. There are, as I said earlier, thousands upon thousands of couples looking to adopt. All the birthmother has to do is give birth and finish up the process she started of her own free will. Once it's over that's it, you can go back to your life. If you want to meet the adoptive parents, see your baby, etc. you are free to do so. If you don't want to, then don't. There is simply no need for abortion in cases where the woman is going to give birth to a healthy baby because she had intercourse with a man of her own free will. You want to dismiss adoption for whatever reason and that’s ridiculous. Again, adoption is an extremely viable option and you cannot simply dismiss it.

I'm not asking for the mother to raise the child. If she can't, she can't; I completely understand and sympathize with her situation. All she has to do is give birth, that's it. She doesn't have to raise the child, she doesn't have to pay the medical costs with giving birth, she doesn't have to do anything other than deliver the child.

Again, all of the above is assuming the mother was not raped, is of age, and will be having a healthy pregnancy (for both her and her child).

 

[Raziaar]

I think Adoption is a good thing, but really it wouldn't be nessesary if people who didn't want babies, would stop having sexual intercourse unprotected. Or at least if they got their tubes tied. Having sex and trying to avoid the natural childbirth that comes along with it, without having done all you can to prevent it in the first place, only so you could continue having sex concequence free is pretty damn irresponsible.

We humans are the only ones who have sex without the desire to have babies. It's not natural behavior. We've just changed our mentalities over the course of history.

 

[Death.Trap]

I will... if you come with me.




...didn't think so.

I'm not the one for killing of other people because of a supposed population problem. So your post makes no sense at all.

 

[Dedalus]

no no, i didn't mean to lay adoption to the side. i meant, if we put adoption to the side for the moment (in relation to this discussion), what other choices are there for the parents?

i said in my post i'm in complete agreement with the idea of adoption.

 

[qckbeam]

no no, i didn't mean to lay adoption to the side. i meant, if we put adoption to the side for the moment (in relation to this discussion), what other choices are there for the parents?

i said in my post i'm in complete agreement with the idea of adoption.

Alright, I think I may have misunderstood you before then. I'm sorry about that.

If you lay adoption to the side for the moment then the only other choice (save for abortion) is to raise the child yourself. Obviously there are some people who really aren't fit, or are truly unable to raise their children and placing the child in their hands would be an irresponsible action. If there was no such thing as adoption my opinion on the matter of abortion might change. I believe you're right when you say it would be more humane to terminate the pregnancy rather than subject a child to a life of poverty, neglect, and abuse. But since there is adoption, and it is really a viable option for everyone, there isn't much point in debating it, is there?

We humans are the only ones who have sex without the desire to have babies. It's not natural behavior. We've just changed our mentalities over the course of history.

That's not true. Many animals have been observed to engage in all sorts of sexual activity, including sex simply for the fun of it. In the animal kingdom we see examples of almost every form of sexual expression engaged in by humans, such as:

homosexuality
oral sex
masturbation
sex toys
group sex

Sex in the animal kingdom is used by different species for different things. Humans are not the only ones to engage in sexual activity for reasons aside from procreation.

 

[Dedalus]

Alright, I think I may have misunderstood you before then. I'm sorry about that.

If you lay adoption to the side for the moment then the only other choice (save for abortion) is to raise the child yourself. Obviously there are some people who really aren't fit, or are truly unable to raise their children and placing the child in their hands would be an irresponsible action. If there was no such thing as adoption my opinion on the matter of abortion might change. I believe you're right when you say it would be more humane to terminate the pregnancy rather than subject a child to a life of poverty, neglect, and abuse. But since there is adoption, and it is really a viable option for everyone, there isn't much point in debating it, is there?

the point of leaving adoption aside for the moment was so i could get your opinions on how else the parents could deal with the unwanted child. to which you've given me your views and i'm satisfied with them.


unrelated topic...am i being overly hostile or confrontational in my posts? it just comes accross that you seem to be a bit 'off' with something i've said. anyway, probably reading too much into it.

 

[qckbeam]

unrelated topic...am i being overly hostile or confrontational in my posts? it just comes accross that you seem to be a bit 'off' with something i've said. anyway, probably reading too much into it.

No you're certainly not

I'm not angry, or upset in the least. I'm sorry if I came across that way. My fault.