I just can't wrap my head around it

[comradesean]

 

[Shift]

Yes, he meant jewish law. Thank you. Jewish law was the old testament.

No it isn't. The Jewish Law consists of books that the Pharisees wrote at the time.

So please, either admit he was saying that jewish law doesn't go away or show me in the new testament where he says only the 10 commendments apply.

If you can't do that then you agree that the old testament applies and if you ever ate shellfish in your life you commited an abomination.

You are still missing the point. What Jesus meant in that entire phrase you keep throwing at me was that he supported the Jewish Law, and that it would always remain in place. But he would 'fulfill' all these laws himself, because we are simply unable to, once he accomplished we was sent to Earth to do, i.e. die on the cross. So even though the laws still remain in place, his sacrifice meant that we do not have to follow them anymore, creating a shortcut to salvation sort of speak. Jesus intercedes, so we don't have to. That is what is meant when he 'bore humanities sin'.

 

[comradesean]

Personally, I think Stephen Hawking is a god. Anyone else want to write a book up about his great deeds and worship him?

 

[Shift]

Why are you still here? I'm sure you have better things to be doing other than trolling on an internet forum.

 

[Mogi67]

No it isn't. The Jewish Law consists of books that the Pharisees wrote at the time.

Not quite. Torah (the law) consisted of what is now known as the Old Testament, as well as additional writings and oral traditions of various rabbis and religious leaders. When Jesus referred to "the law" passing away or being fulfilled, he was speaking about the Jewish ethos as a whole.

So even though the laws still remain in place, his sacrifice meant that we do not have to follow them anymore, creating a shortcut to salvation sort of speak. Jesus intercedes, so we don't have to. That is what is meant when he 'bore humanities sin'

In Christ's time the Jewish religion had become petty and dull as a result of the pharisaic obsession with keeping the law to an extreme. Jesus meant to liberate Judaism and the rest of humanity from this type of spiritual tyranny. By saying that the whole of the law boils down to "Love the lord your God with all your mind, heart, and soul, and your neighbor as yourself", he's saying that love and compassion is really the only important thing to follow. Of course humanity ****ed it up and the church added a whole host of rules which don't necessarily agree with this philosophy..like how any drinking was/is viewed as a sin by protestants.

Everything Jesus said was amazing, it's everything else about Christianity that ruins it.

 

[No Limit]

No it isn't. The Jewish Law consists of books that the Pharisees wrote at the time.

And what were they based on? The old testament.

You are still missing the point. What Jesus meant in that entire phrase you keep throwing at me was that he supported the Jewish Law, and that it would always remain in place. But he would 'fulfill' all these laws himself, because we are simply unable to, once he accomplished we was sent to Earth to do, i.e. die on the cross. So even though the laws still remain in place, his sacrifice meant that we do not have to follow them anymore, creating a shortcut to salvation sort of speak. Jesus intercedes, so we don't have to. That is what is meant when he 'bore humanities sin'.

No, you are the one missing the point and you keep ignoring it when I point it out to you. Again, this is the exact quote:

I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

You are trying to pretend the words "until heaven and earth disappear" are not in there. But they are. So whatever fulfilment Jesus talks about it will not be fulfilled until heaven and earth disappear (as I understand christianity that means when good defeats evil).

What part of this is not clear to you?

 

[Shift]

No, he means he supports the Law and it will always remain in place 'until heaven and earth disappear', but UNTIL he has accomplished his mission, i.e. when he dies on the cross and we won't have to follow them anymore. If you will fail to read what I'm saying then I'm just going to stop debating with you, because I'm just repeating myself.

 

[No Limit]

For ****s sake shift. Does heaven and earth still exist? yes? Then the law still applies. The law as you just said being based on the old testament.

This is the problem I have with people like you. When you come to a point where you can't argue logically you just ignore things. Again "until heaven and earth disappear" is right in there, I didn't make it up. You are sitting here pretending that phrase does not exist.

 

[No Limit]

If you are going to say that you won't debate with me if I don't listen to you don't go back and edit your post after I responded adding things you didn't have in there before since when you first posted you again ignored the phrase "until heaven and earth disappear". Now you are trying to pretend you don't speak english.

Again, the exact quote is:

I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

There is no buts, there is no ifs. It says what it says. Now unless you want to change the english language you can not dispute that until earth and heaven are no more (good has defeated evil) the law still applies.

 

[comradesean]

Why are you still here? I'm sure you have better things to be doing other than trolling on an internet forum.

Maybe just because I'd rather see this arguement go back to the original topic such as the creation of the universe and not this rather oft-repeated arguement over an old book. And yes, you are still technically the one who twisted this arguement in this direction. I mean, you've either realized what All Limit is doing and you love arguing pointless shit or you're not paying any attention.

I mean, You probably know that everything you're saying hinges on the fact that the people from two millenia ago weren't completely duped. I mean, Who even cares if the man really existed if he wasn't really the man people think he was? I'm not into conspiracies, but shit. Propaganda isn't hard to spread to the populace, ya hear? Whatever. Maybe it's all real. Maybe it's not.

Now about that Stephen Hawking fella's thoughts about that universe thingy?

 

[No Limit]

^ Stephen Hawking was already settled. He never said God didn't exist, he said you didn't need a God for the universe to exist. Which is pretty ****ing obvious and doesn't really deserve the headlines it got.

If you don't like this conversation then leave.

 

[Shift]

For ****s sake shift. Does heaven and earth still exist? yes? Then the law still applies. The law as you just said being based on the old testament.

This is the problem I have with people like you. When you come to a point where you can't argue logically you just ignore things. Again "until heaven and earth disappear" is right in there, I didn't make it up. You are sitting here pretending that phrase does not exist.

This is the last time I will say this.

'I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law..'

This is stating, that he supports the Law, and the Law will always remain in place 'until heaven and earth disappear' BUT

'UNTIL EVERYTHING IS ACCOMPLISHED'

What on earth do YOU think he means when he says everything is accomplished? What was Jesus sent to Earth to do? To die for on a cross, for humanities sin, that was his purpose. So why the hell would he say 'I'm going to die on the cross and bore all your sin, and if you believe in me and what I do, then that's your key to salvation, oh but all those old laws? Yeah you still have to follow them'

His death on the cross was because of humanities incapability of NOT sinning, God realized this, that is why he sent Jesus to do what he did. Humanity could NOT follow the law and no sin, no matter how hard we tried. Jesus died on the cross, and belief in him would grant us salvation instead of having to follow the law, that we couldn't do anyway.

 

[No Limit]

So Matthew threw "until earth and heaven is no more" just for shits and giggles?

And so what you are saying that at this time everything has been accomplished? Good has defeated evil? So Jesus isn't coming back? The rapture won't happen?

 

[comradesean]

What was Jesus sent to Earth to do? To die for on a cross, for humanities sin, that was his purpose.

Shittiest quest ever. It even makes escorts somewhat bearable.

 

[Shift]

Maybe just because I'd rather see this arguement go back to the original topic such as the creation of the universe and not this rather oft-repeated arguement over an old book. And yes, you are still technically the one who twisted this arguement in this direction. I mean, you've either realized what All Limit is doing and you love arguing pointless shit or you're not paying any attention.

I stated my views on the creation of the universe, and I was hounded because of it, which led to the discussion we are in now actually. You consider it pointless shit yet you found it fit to argue your point earlier? If you don't like it, leave, its perfectly simple.

 

[Shift]

So Matthew threw "until earth and heaven is no more" just for shits and giggles?

And so what you are saying that at this time everything has been accomplished? Good has defeated evil? So Jesus isn't coming back? The rapture won't happen?

I'm saying that humanity now have a realistic path to salvation since he died on the cross. Jesus's return and the rapture is God's final judgement on humanity, i.e. judged on whether we took faith in Jesus and what he did. And Matthew didn't say that, its what Jesus said, Matthew recorded it. And he put it in because it Jesus's way of saying that the Law is important and will be always, but only I can 'fulfil' what the law states so humanity doesn't have to.

 

[RidleyRockets]

What was Jesus sent to Earth to do? To die for on a cross, for humanities sin, that was his purpose.

Well it was slightly more than that, He was a zombie wizard jew who was his own dad that was sent to earth so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.

 

[Shift]

Shittiest quest ever.

What sacrificing himself by going through one of the worst ways of dieing in history, while simultaneously bearing ALL of humanities sin in the process, with a torment so unbearable that he himself cried out 'why have you forsaken me' to God, just so humanity can have salvation even though they didn't deserve it?

I can't think of any sacrifice worthy enough to mention when confronted with something like that.

 

[No Limit]

I'm saying that humanity now have a realistic path to salvation since he died on the cross. Jesus's return and the rapture is God's final judgement on humanity, i.e. judged on whether we took faith in Jesus and what he did. And Matthew didn't say that, its what Jesus said, Matthew recorded it. And he put it in because it Jesus's way of saying that the Law is important and will be always, but only I can 'fulfil' what the law states so humanity doesn't have to.

So everything hasn't yet been accomplished?

And when that final judgement does come heaven and earth will be no longer. Right?

What sacrificing himself by going through one of the worst ways of dieing in history, while simultaneously bearing ALL of humanities sin in the process, with a torment so unbearable that he himself cried out 'why have you forsaken me' to God, just so humanity can have salvation even though they didn't deserve it?

I can't think of any sacrifice worthy enough to mention when confronted with something like that.

Yeah, when I get pissed at myself I usually cry out "Why did you **** up so bad Paul"!

 

[Shift]

So everything hasn't yet been accomplished?

And when that final judgement does come heaven and earth will be no longer. Right?

Everything Jesus set out to accomplish was accomplished when he died on the cross, that, for the last time, is what he meant.

And no after rapture there will be a millennium of peace of prosperity followed by eternity in the presence of God, for those who believed in Jesus anyway. Take it how you will.

 

[No Limit]

Look, if you could just answer the questions directly that would save us a lot of time.

Jesus never said anything about what he set out to accomplish. He only said that everything must be accomplished before the law wouldn't matter any longer. The rapture hasn't happened yet and good hasn't yet defeated evil so everything hasn't been accomplished.

And after everything has been accomplished there will be no heaven and earth, just eternity in the presence of God. Otherwise what was Matthew talking about when he said no heaven and no earth?

 

[comradesean]

I stated my views on the creation of the universe, and I was hounded because of it, which led to the discussion we are in now actually. You consider it pointless shit yet you found it fit to argue your point earlier? If you don't like it, leave, its perfectly simple.

You weren't hounded. We were making fun of you and sky wizards at the same time. I'm pretty sure the sky wizards prefer not to be likened to your science fiction and hocus focus. They do the REAL work of the universe.

Not to mention that my point the entire time was for the arguement to stop. I mean, it's not even a discussion. It's just you and No Limit pointing out quotes from a fictional book and trying to prove each other wrong which is just him hounding you and you repeating yourself. That's not a discussion. That's not a discussion at all.

(Post is totally filled with opinions. Take it however you will.)

 

[Shift]

You weren't hounded. We were making fun of you and sky wizards at the same time. I'm pretty sure the sky wizards prefer not to be likened to your science fiction and hocus focus. They do the REAL work of the universe.

Not to mention that my point the entire time was for the arguement to stop.

Haha you are unbelievable. So you were making fun of me and my beliefs but you were also trying to get the argument to stop? Look up the word contradiction in the dictionary, you might learn something.

Anyway I'm done with this discussion, its gotten very dull. No Limit, the Bible is interpreted in a very specific way, that's why there is such thing as theology. You see a different message from it than I and many others do, well that's fine, but if we carry on like this we will literally be here all night.

So as you were gentleman.

 

[Eejit]

You're getting bogged down in the minutiae with a 'moderate' (believe only the huggy parts) Christian, No Limit.
Broaden your position.

Basically people believe in the Christian God because the Bibles describes him and in a feat of circular reasoning says that the Bible is an infallible work attributed to said God. Therefore treating any part of the book as incorrect or 'made up' undermines the entire thing.

Fairytales are fine, and people can believe them if they want if they keep it to themselves. The problem is hundreds of millions of religious folk who want to deny women the choice as to whether to continue a pregnancy. Or deny scientists the chance to research life-saving treatments based on stem-cells. Or denounce certain sexual orientations as an 'abomination'.
While I'm only giving examples related to Christianity given the direction this thread has gone there are similar problems resulting from the beliefs of other religions too. Even the supposedly most benign, Buddhism, results in the suffering of countless animals as followers often refuse to euthanise sick pets or livestock for whom the only recourse is a merciful release simply because they believe it will count towards them being reincarnated as a being high up the ladder.

 

[Stigmata]

the Bible is interpreted in a very specific way, that's why there is such thing as theology.

If the Bible were interpreted in a specific way, there would be no theology, only God. But the Bible is interpreted in many specific ways. This is why we have theology, multiple religions, sectarian violence; it is a book full of contradictions.

As you were.

 

[No Limit]

So as you were gentleman.

If you don't mind I'm just gonna summerize the discussion real quick, please let me know if any of this is unfair in any way.

You: Anyone that doesn't fully follow the bible isn't a true christian. I follow the bible all the way. Well except the old testament because Jesus told us not to follow that.

Me: Jesus says right here that until heaven and earth are no more and everything has been accomplished you need to follow the old testament.

You: Everything has been accomplished so we don't need to follow it any longer.

Me: Everything hasn't been accomplished (bad vs evil, heaven and earth, rapture, etc)

You: No I mean everything Jesus wanted to accomplish.

Me: But that's not what Matthew says about it being just what Jesus wanted to accomplish, he said everything. You are putting words in his mouth that are not there.

You: The reason I am putting words in his mouth is because of theology. I don't have time to explain so I'm just gonna take my ball and go home.

You're getting bogged down in the minutiae with a 'moderate' (believe only the huggy parts) Christian, No Limit.
Broaden your position.

You and many others were making very good points. I didn't mean to distract from that and I wish Shift would have addressed some of those posts as well. To be fair to him everyone gangs up on religious folk so he had a lot of people to respond to, like I said I didn't mean to distract from the points you were making I just wanted to stick to some specifics in terms of the argument I was making.

 

[Druckles]

I try to avoid specific conflicts with translation or interpretation. My sister and brother-in-law seem to spend most of their time discussing and arguing specific interpretations of passages.

Personally, I think it rarely matters either way.

 

[comradesean]

Haha you are unbelievable. So you were making fun of me and my beliefs but you were also trying to get the argument to stop? Look up the word contradiction in the dictionary, you might learn something.

Anyway I'm done with this discussion, its gotten very dull. No Limit, the Bible is interpreted in a very specific way, that's why there is such thing as theology. You see a different message from it than I and many others do, well that's fine, but if we carry on like this we will literally be here all night.

So as you were gentleman.

Rofl, contradictions. I definitely did not contradict myself. It started out as a discussion on an intelligent creator vs natural happenstance and then devolved into what you see here. I have no idea how you can even consider this one arguement when I'm pretty sure there was some kind of discussion about religion in politics in there somewhere.

 

[L3N!N]

Cool, another one of these cyclic and highly inflammatory threads fueled by stubborn members and sparked off by news of one man's opinion.

Why even argue? You came in with an opinion, and from what I can tell from threads similar to this, you leave with the same opinion.

 

[Raziaar]

Great... this thread turned from a discussion about something from nothing and how god fits into it, into a simple mundane religion discussion.

 

[Bad^Hat]

If you don't mind I'm just gonna summerize the discussion real quick, please let me know if any of this is unfair in any way.

You: Anyone that doesn't fully follow the bible isn't a true christian. I follow the bible all the way. Well except the old testament because Jesus told us not to follow that.

Me: Jesus says right here that until heaven and earth are no more and everything has been accomplished you need to follow the old testament.

You: Everything has been accomplished so we don't need to follow it any longer.

Me: Everything hasn't been accomplished (bad vs evil, heaven and earth, rapture, etc)

You: No I mean everything Jesus wanted to accomplish.

Me: But that's not what Matthew says about it being just what Jesus wanted to accomplish, he said everything. You are putting words in his mouth that are not there.

You: The reason I am putting words in his mouth is because of theology. I don't have time to explain so I'm just gonna take my ball and go home.

I think what he's trying to say is that "until heaven and earth are gone" refers to how the law will prevail, not how it will be upheld. Therefore, we still have judaism who follow the laws of the old testament (and whatever other books they hold as law), and creationists who claim to follow it (except the icky parts), while "moderate" christians like Shift can happily ignore it and still attain salvation.

I'm not saying he's right, or even that it makes sense, but really this whole line of discourse is kind of circular and petty.

 

[No Limit]

I don't know. He finally agreed "the law" that his bible talks about refers to the old testament. And the quote clearly says "not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law". So I don't know how what he says makes any sense without totally altering what the bible says to fit his own idea of what the bible should say. God's law must be followed to the letter as he himself said.

 

[Druckles]

God's law must be followed to the letter as he himself said.

As someone else wrote that he said.

 

[TechnoHippyChic]

...sacrificing himself by going through one of the worst ways of dieing in history, while simultaneously bearing ALL of humanities sin in the process, with a torment so unbearable that he himself cried out 'why have you forsaken me' to God, just so humanity can have salvation even though they didn't deserve it?

I never could understand how him being alledgedly tortured and murdered somehow absolves "sin". What does one have to do with the other? Couldn't god have just granted salvation without all this gruesome crucifixion business?

On the orignal topic, an eternal expanding and contracting universe seems an elegant explanation.

There's an interesting thread over on godlikeproductions about vacuum being a just another state of matter / energy.

 

[Eejit]

As someone else wrote that he said.

Warning: this applies to everything in the Bibble

 

[Top Secret]

This is why I love computers. So simple. No needless questions of meaning or existence. Just binary and code.

 

[comradesean]

This is why I love computers. So simple. No needless questions of meaning or existence. Just binary and code.

You'll change your tune when they start murdering your family.

 

[Godron]

I don't know. He finally agreed "the law" that his bible talks about refers to the old testament. And the quote clearly says "not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law". So I don't know how what he says makes any sense without totally altering what the bible says to fit his own idea of what the bible should say. God's law must be followed to the letter as he himself said.

I think he was trying to say that Jesus's crucifixion somehow made it so we no longer had to follow the Law to get into heaven. Hence he "died for you sins" etc. Of course, even if you accept this, the fact remains that God's Law is still the moral absolute; he's just agreed to let us off for not killing enough homosexuals (Lev.20:13). Which is a bit messed up.

I never could understand how him being alledgedly tortured and murdered somehow absolves "sin". What does one have to do with the other? Couldn't god have just granted salvation without all this gruesome crucifixion business?

I asked my physics teacher this once (quite a religious guy), and he said something about Jesus taking our sin from us. So he took not only the blame for our sins, but the responsibility. I may also have heard that this applies to the original sin (sin inherited from Adam, who ate the forbidden fruit) of all future generations. Don't quote me on that though, I guess Shift's the man to ask. Either way, I'd still agree that it's pretty nonsensical. I think it's derived from the old scapegoat stories in the Old Testament. If a man has sinned, a priest can perform a ritual to transfer that sin onto a goat, which is then killed or cast off into the desert. Hence, that man is no longer damned to hell.

 

[Acepilotf14]

Looking at society today, I really wonder if it should be called 'intelligent' design.

 

[No Limit]

I think he was trying to say that Jesus's crucifixion somehow made it so we no longer had to follow the Law to get into heaven. Hence he "died for you sins" etc. Of course, even if you accept this, the fact remains that God's Law is still the moral absolute; he's just agreed to let us off for not killing enough homosexuals (Lev.20:13). Which is a bit messed up.

But he didn't explain where in the bible it said he could just ignore everything from the old testament now that Jesus died for his sins. The bible clearly says otherwise.