ID Cards

[ríomhaire]

It's modernisation. Just think of the things that are a 'step towards 1984'

Credit Cards and Banks (Control your money and can be used to track you)
Mobile Phones (Can be used to track you)
Factories/Mass Production (When you aren't self imployed you cannot control your means of work. Unions cannot work if the companies band together, the workers would probably break first)
The Internet (Free exchange of ideas or tracking people's thoughts with IP addresses?)
etc etc

 

[short recoil]

The main thing that worries me is anti terrorism, if there comes a point where the government has a certain level of control of its own and "the people" disagree in a majority the only way to act would be through physical action to gain power back.

The government could use the excuse of "anti terrorism" to prevent people from fighting for what they believe is truly right.

Ok so i didn't explain my point very well but i hope you know what i mean.

 

[clarky003]

They even said, in cases like the London bombings, it wouldnt beable to stop that kind of terrorisim.. which is why I call bullshit.

 

[ríomhaire]

Yeah, I know what you mean, the Patriot Act and that shit.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

Compulsory National ID's - NO WAY.

Voluntary- certainly, I'd even sign up.

No, won't lead to a 1984 situation. I'm opposed to it in the US because it infringes on state's rights.

 

[Laivasse]

Funny that someone should mention the Queen, I was thinking earlier that it'd be great if she could step in on matters like this where the government is trying to implement something radical that's, frankly, expensive, sinister and totally unpopular. No matter how much of a buffer the Lords is, it's probably going to make it through there in some form or another - deals will be made, some bullshit concessions thrown around, etc. It'd be great if the Queen could just pop up and say "Look, just...no. Just...no, stop the shit. No."

You really know your democracy is being abused when you have to rely on your most undemocratic institutions to help you out.

 

[Kangy]

THEY'LL NEVER TAKE ME ALIVE!

Well, actually, I'm emigrating before they can force me to have one. So much for "leaders of the free world", I'm out of here before they can get me with any of their crap about national security just so they can break boundary after boundary of my privacy.

Also, my MP is utterly crap. She has NEVER voted outside the Labour party whip I don't think, she just stinks of political henchmanism.

 

[gick]

Also, my MP is utterly crap. She has NEVER voted outside the Labour party whip I don't think, she just stinks of political henchmanism.

Ditto. My MP is a total Blairite. Somebody in the constituency challenged her over the fact that she was pro-Iraq war and she basically said 'well sorry but I'm right and you're wrong, k thnx bi'.

 

[craig]

If it means a safer society I have no problem with submitting my DNA to the govornment (of my own free will of course). I have nothing to hide.

The idea of an ID card doesn't offend me, but I just wish they could somehow make them more useful. Instead of having an ID card at all why can't we just have our thumb print scanned? Then if a cop did stop you they could scan your thumb and get all the information they wanted.

Cards FTL. Thumb and Retinal scanning should be used for everything.

 

[Solaris]

If it means a safer society I have no problem with submitting my DNA to the govornment (of my own free will of course). I have nothing to hide.

The idea of an ID card doesn't offend me, but I just wish they could somehow make them more useful. Instead of having an ID card at all why can't we just have our thumb print scanned? Then if a cop did stop you they could scan your thumb and get all the information they wanted.

Cards FTL. Thumb and Retinal scanning should be used for everything.

You have nothing to hide?
You can't be free if your under survellance.

 

[15357]

You have nothing to hide?
You can't be free if your under survellance.

Actually, you would be permited to go anywhere legal, even with surveilance.

Because its in the boundaries of the law. Yes. The law. Obey.

 

[el Chi]

Meh, I've got no ethical stance against it- I just think it'll be expensive to introduce and not all that effective in the long run.

I do have an ethical stance against it, but at the most basic level, this is the whole idea's major flaw.
It beggars belief, it really does.

 

[ríomhaire]

You have nothing to hide?
You can't be free if your under survellance.

You can't be free if you do not have total control of your life. NO ONE DOES! Get over it.

 

[el Chi]

Well, we're talking degrees of freedom though, aren't we?
I feel people should be free not to have these cards imposed on them, however I do not feel people should be free to rape minors.

 

[Solaris]

You can't be free if you do not have total control of your life. NO ONE DOES! Get over it.

Freedom of Expression? Its seriously at risk, you cannot be free if your under surviellance, becuase you wonder if its a good idea to buy/read/say such and such in case it might look bad ect.

 

[Septih]

how far do you suspect they will go? The government does not have the manpower to watch everyones actions, and I doubt the courts would charge you for reading suspect material.

 

[Edcrab]

I do think some people are blowing it out of proportion- even though they've had twenty years from the titular date we're miles from the government starting up an 1984 scenario- but I can totally understand the grievances.

The thing is, I don't oppose it on ethical grounds because I can't see, really, how well it could possibly track somebody (and thus limit their freedoms)- unless they start forcing people to flash it around at every opportunity.

So, conversely- how could it possibly cut down on terrorism? Identity fraud yes, but thus far our terrorists haven't made any attempt to hide their respective identities... it'd have a tiny impact on any potential attacks.

If you want to spend my tax money on "security", sort out the borders. Don't invite everyone in and then issue them with a token plastic rectangle :|

 

[ríomhaire]

IMO, a totalitarian can't come into full power without the support of the people. Of course you'd be surprised what desperate people will do.

 

[Solaris]

The thing is, I don't oppose it on ethical grounds because I can't see, really, how well it could possibly track somebody (and thus limit their freedoms)- unless they start forcing people to flash it around at every opportunity.

Its forcing people to hand over a little part of themselves to the state, so it can monitor them. We are a free people, the state doesn't monitor us, or watch us. That is not its job, we must be vigilant as a people at what the state does with the powers we grant it.

 

[Nat Turner]

lol, you Brits are insane. Thank God I don't live in your 1984 Airstrip One country.

Totalitarianism FTL.

 

[kirovman]

Luckily I'm an Inner Party member. I just love oppression.

 

[ríomhaire]

lol, you Brits are insane. Thank God I don't live in your 1984 Airstrip One country.

Totalitarianism FTL.

What about the Patriot Act? And your president who considers your constitution just a piece of paper?

 

[Nat Turner]

What about the Patriot Act? And your president who considers your constitution just a piece of paper?

It doesn't matter what he thinks, because he'd get impeached if he stepped way out of bounds and authorized things that are egriegously unconstitutional. The Patriot act was on the brink as it is. In the UK where you have nearly unrestricted democracy the government can do whatever the **** it wants as long as enough people support it. Tyranny of the majority and all that.

 

[kirovman]

It doesn't matter what he thinks, because he'd get impeached if he stepped way out of bounds and authorized things that are egriegously unconstitutional. The Patriot act was on the brink as it is. In the UK where you have nearly unrestricted democracy the government can do whatever the **** it wants as long as enough people support it. Tyranny of the majority and all that.

Yes, just like when Tony Blair went to war in Iraq against the will of the people, and under false pretences. That would never happen in America.

 

[Nat Turner]

Yes, just like when Tony Blair went to war in Iraq against the will of the people. That would never happen in America.

Most people supported the war actually at the time (becuase Bush lied to us all). Now most people want out.

 

[ríomhaire]

It doesn't matter what he thinks, because he'd get impeached if he stepped way out of bounds and authorized things that are egriegously unconstitutional. The Patriot act was on the brink as it is. In the UK where you have nearly unrestricted democracy the government can do whatever the **** it wants as long as enough people support it. Tyranny of the majority and all that.

Thank God I live in Ireland, good old constitutions!

 

[craig]

I find it interesting that some of you guys seem to think the introduction of these cards means the govt. will be watching your every step even though a piece of plastic in your wallet would make this equally as probable as it is they're watching you right now... unless they're inplanting an RFID chip inside the plastic!

But yeah. Streets are watched by CCTV and no one seems to have a problem with that. I just think this is the next logical step. Probably save a lot of police man hours too when shifty crooks used to give them a false ID in the past and they had to find out who the heck they were.

 

[Nat Turner]

I find it interesting that some of you guys seem to think the introduction of these cards means the govt. will be watching your every step even though a piece of plastic in your wallet would make this equally as probable as it is they're watching you right now... unless they're inplanting an RFID chip inside the plastic!

But yeah. Streets are watched by CCTV and no one seems to have a problem with that. I just think this is the next logical step. Probably save a lot of police man hours too when shifty crooks used to give them a false ID in the past and they had to find out who the heck they were.

RFIDs are next, you're quickly moving in that direction. I hope you enjoy a government that sits on your shoulders and tells you what to do. After all, nothing wrong with being watched if you live a perfect life.

 

[Cooper]

The same exact defense, "oh no government will take over" was used when thumb printing was introduced.

 

[Solaris]

Most people supported the war actually at the time (becuase Bush lied to us all). Now most people want out.

Thats becuase most of you are stupid. Thats a fact. Don't think your escaping the wrath of tyranny, Alex Jones says Americas on Marcial Law Level 8.

 

[ríomhaire]

Thats becuase most of you are stupid.

Worst comeback EVER!

 

[ComradeBadger]

RFIDs are next, you're quickly moving in that direction. I hope you enjoy a government that sits on your shoulders and tells you what to do. After all, nothing wrong with being watched if you live a perfect life.

I'm pretty much sick of your 'America > UK' attitude..

Oh and Solaris, Alex Jones is a crackpot conspiracy theorist - I wouldn't believe a word he says until it's supported by noted acedemics.

 

[Sulkdodds]

I wouldn't believe a word he says until it's refuted by noted acedemics.

lol :rolling:

I hope you enjoy a government that sits on your shoulders and tells you what to do. After all, nothing wrong with being watched if you live a perfect life.

Right back atcha, unfortunately.

 

[15357]

Whats so wrong with identity cards? It would be just like having a more detailed driver's license.





Imo, goverments should barcode people in the right arm, so they can easily identify people, alive or dead.

 

[Llama]

You have some strange ideas :|

ID cards dont seem to OTT, barcoding everyone is a bit...extreme.

 

[15357]

You have some strange ideas :|

ID cards dont seem to OTT, barcoding everyone is a bit...extreme.

............

I'm sorry, I sometimes get carried away.

 

[Laivasse]

RFIDs are next, you're quickly moving in that direction. I hope you enjoy a government that sits on your shoulders and tells you what to do. After all, nothing wrong with being watched if you live a perfect life.

I'm pretty much sick of your 'America > UK' attitude..

Oh and Solaris, Alex Jones is a crackpot conspiracy theorist - I wouldn't believe a word he says until it's refuted by noted acedemics.

I don't think there's anything 'america>UK' about it. He's just right. It's fair enough that the US government went to war with the support of most Americans. Over here we just got royally bumf*cked by our government - they saw our protests, said 'meh, they just live here, they don't run the place - we must make Bush happy!' and went ahead with what they were doing.

Fact is, it's British tradition to take it up the bum, in so many meanings. Just look at prices here. Look at incompetence and customer service. And that attitude of 'ah well...they're not really doing anything wrong, let them get on with it' is borne out by how so many of us Brits are so completely passive about our civil liberties being eroded away. I see all of this, and I still think Britain is probably a better place to live than the US for the moment, but only just.

People need to wake up and stop taking things for granted - just because this country has once been democratic and free, it doesn't mean it always will be. As Ming Campbell said once about the detention thing, the liberties we possess now are those we won by clawing them away from the state over 100's of years - if we surrender them back then they wont be easily reclaimed. People don't seem to understand the danger of precedents. The ID cards thing might only seem like a small, perhaps even convenient measure to many people. But factor in the fact that the government have gone through about 5 different crappy arguments for them before settling on one that works (terrorism, immigration, etc.... eventually ID fraud), factor in the potential for surveillance, and factor in the CONTEXT in which this has come about - govt pushing for detention without trial, introduction of laws curtailing free speech, pensioners arrested under terrorism legislation - and it looks TERRIBLE.

 

[VictimOfScience]

Alex Jones is a crackpot conspiracy theorist

Yeah he is. He's also way off the mark! He needs his head and eyes examined carefully.

 

[Nat Turner]

You have some strange ideas :|

ID cards dont seem to OTT, barcoding everyone is a bit...extreme.

It only sounds extreme because you don't have mandatory RFID cards yet. Once you get them, I'm sure your government will easily be able to convince the majority that they're normal and are 'good' (OMG not the "terrorists" !!). Then these tracking devices will become the status quo, just like every other injustice your government and society perpetuates...

edit: yeah that comment was about barcodes, but I'm just saying

 

[Nat Turner]

I'm pretty much sick of your 'America > UK' attitude..

Oh and Solaris, Alex Jones is a crackpot conspiracy theorist - I wouldn't believe a word he says until it's refuted by noted acedemics.

I have nothing against your country, just your government. It's a big difference. If you think the two are the same, then you have some serious rethinking to do.