Idiocy with the Police

[Calanen]

Now I often have had no love for the police. My grandad and uncle were criminal lawyers, and Im a lawyer too. Ive seen scandalous behaviour by the cops, on many occassions.

But I do accept they have a job to do. And I also accept, that is made much harder by ill informed criticism, and the softly softly appoach that their political masters will have them take nowadays.

Recently, in Australia, a Commodore (hmm, a bit like maybe a Crown Victoria? although made by General Motors) sedan, stolen in a home invasion, was sighted by detectives who then gave chase. They car would not pull over, and increased its speed, in a residential neighbourhood to 140 kilometres per hour. Like 90 miles per hour approx. The car lost control, crashed, and the two passengers in the back were killed. The driver ran.

The area of Macquarie Fields where this occurred is a public housing estate. It is well known as a dangerous no go area for the majority of Sydney's citizens. Many in the public arena on the left, said that the Police executed these criminals, inflicting a sentence of death on them. In addition, there have been calls to stop police 'sentencing people to death' for stealing a car.

This is just the loony. The cops were doing their job. If you steal a car, and drive like an idiot and die, thats your fault. Not that of the police. They could have pulled over. They could have driven with care away. Or more importantly, they could have obeyed the law like everyone else! But they chose to run, and it killed them. The only people they have to blame, is themselves.

Following this incident, residents of Macquarie Fields staged 4 days of riots. Police held off doing much, because of constant criticism from the bleeding heart liberals. They trashed the area, throwing petrol bombs. Police watched.

This morning, a Subaru WRX was sited by a police car smashing open the Versace store in Castlereagh street. The police car was on the same street, could see this happening. According to an anonymous source from the police, who wrote to a media talkshow - this car called in the sighting, asked for backup and said they would pursue to arrest. Area command said, pullover, let them go.

So because of criticism from the bleeding hearts - police now have to watch, as ramraiders trash the Versace store (which was closed today while it cleaned up and fixed extensive damage) and drive off. Cant be chased.

And this says to all of the criminals in our state, drive as fast as you can, like an idiot, the cops cannot touch you. Make sure you use a car to commit your crimes, and you have a free run to do whatever you like. Great job people.

 

[KoreBolteR]

yes, the police have a job to do ffs!

what if that speeding car hit a group of children playing on the road, then would the tables be turned...

"why didnt the police chase them?!?" - people would be saying.

 

[burner69]

You've pin pointed a very loony area of the loony left there (Very extreme left though, may I add).
This kind of stuff p*sses me off no end.

 

[pomegranate]

On the other hand, what about the innocent pedestrians or other road users that are hurt due to high-speed chases? The thieves wouldn't drive dangerously unless they were be persued (sp?).... just a thought.

 

[Icarusintel]

Thank god that's only in Australia... America stays safe another day

 

[Ranga]

Following this incident, residents of Macquarie Fields staged 4 days of riots. Police held off doing much, because of constant criticism from the bleeding heart liberals. They trashed the area, throwing petrol bombs. Police watched.

i agree with what ur saying, but i heard on the radio that riot police were trying to disperse the riots.

Thank god that's only in Australia... America stays safe another day

thankyuo for being so considerate... :|

 

[Eg.]

we've had race riots like that in america. a black guy died after being chased by cops on his motorcycle, and the black population just got up and started setting shit on fire. all because the cops were pulling him over.

 

[Hapless]

On the other hand, what about the innocent pedestrians or other road users that are hurt due to high-speed chases? The thieves wouldn't drive dangerously unless they were be persued (sp?).... just a thought.

Not necessarily. Do you honestly think all stupid driving is police induced? In all the high speed chases I've been involved in, the only time I've seen an "innocent civilian" hurt is when the idiot was following the chase around and got hit head on by the suspect. Moral: If you see a police chase going on, stay the hell out of the way and DON'T follow it.

 

[Icarusintel]

thankyuo for being so considerate... :|

Eh, we have plenty of problems with our own police, so, you can rest assured it's not a picnic up here, especially in PG County, MD right near where I live, always some police scandal going on up there

 

[Calanen]

On the other hand, what about the innocent pedestrians or other road users that are hurt due to high-speed chases? The thieves wouldn't drive dangerously unless they were be persued (sp?).... just a thought

.

Yes Im sure that having just stolen a car, committed a ram raid - that the hypothetical thief has ABUNDANT respect for the road rules, and other traffic laws, and he is the model careful driver. Pity the horrible police have to wreck all of this stellar driving ability by chasing the poor guys.

 

[kmack]

yes, the police have a job to do ffs!

what if that speeding car hit a group of children playing on the road, then would the tables be turned...

"why didnt the police chase them?!?" - people would be saying.

Not saying I agree with this one way or the other, but what if it's the police car that goes into a group of children. Chances are a hot pursuit will NOT start if police do not speed after a suspect. The suspect will go normal speeds, chase with a helicopter or use detective work.

 

[Calanen]

Use detective work? Helicopter? Do u know how big Sydney is? By the time there is a helicopter up, the dudes are gone.

So basically u just have to stay in the car - and you are golden. Like in this case, cops watched as these guys loaded up a car, smashed the Versace shop in, gave em a wave as they drove away.

Now that they are gone:

1.) Probably they will never be caughtl

2.) The WRX will be stripped;

3.) The Versace merchandist will never be recovered.

So there are no consequences for being on the run from police in a car. So what does this mean? Do more crimes in the car.....Because you know you are untouchable.

 

[CptStern]

"South Australian research found that almost 90 per cent of chases began after a routine traffic offence." - source


a $20 fine isnt enough of a justification for putting people's lives in danger

 

[Ranga]

Eh, we have plenty of problems with our own police, so, you can rest assured it's not a picnic up here, especially in PG County, MD right near where I live, always some police scandal going on up there

hehe.. we've had exactly the same here.... scandals... scandals... scandals.... but we have a good organisation that looks after the scandals

 

[WySiWyG]

In the uk apparently its illegal for the police to pursue people on mopeds without crash helmets on.

 

[Sieg]

The job of the police is to protect the public,not the oppisite.

 

[SupremePain]

Come on, the police are as responsible as the criminals in chases. It's like running after someone with a hammer yelling "I won't hurt you!" it's retarded putting civillians lives at risk to catch a guy who just stole a TV.............. The police are suppose to keep things in perspective when dealing with incidents such at chases.

 

[Hapless]

"South Australian research found that almost 90 per cent of chases began after a routine traffic offence." - source


a $20 fine isnt enough of a justification for putting people's lives in danger

More often than not, the fine isn't the reason they are running. THe majority of times a cop pulls someone over, he/she has no idea what the person or people on the car just did, whether they have warrants, whether is a gun or dope in the car, whether there's a body in the trunk, etc.

That being said, our pursuit policy is that a supervisor monitors the pursuit, the officers involved call out speed, traffic/pedestrian conditions and charges, and the supervisor makes the decision based on those factors whether the chase continues or not. Unfortunately the, "Oh my God, police shouldn't chase people," crowd makes some supervisors nervous, and they will terminate any chase immediately. One pursuuit was terminated by a supervisior even though he was advised that officers believed there was an injured female in the backseat, and the female was later found dead, dumped in a cemetery of all places. She'd been murdered. Apparently she was still alive at the time the pursuit was terminated. THis happened where I work, not some big city like LA.

 

[Hapless]

Come on, the police are as responsible as the criminals in chases. It's like running after someone with a hammer yelling "I won't hurt you!" it's retarded putting civillians lives at risk to catch a guy who just stole a TV.............. The police are suppose to keep things in perspective when dealing with incidents such at chases.

"Excuse me, sir, could you please stop and return that TV and let us take you to jail? No? Is there a better time when we can get in touch with you and arrest you, then?"

 

[CptStern]

More often than not, the fine isn't the reason they are running. THe majority of times a cop pulls someone over, he/she has no idea what the person or people on the car just did, whether they have warrants, whether is a gun or dope in the car, whether there's a body in the trunk, etc.

....but it clearly says:

"South Australian research found that almost 90 per cent of chases began after a routine traffic offence."

maybe they've been watching one too many Dukes of Hazzard re-runs, maybe they have to take a dump and stopping for the cops could lead to stinky underwear, maybe they dont want the cops to find that illegal firearm they have in their trunk, maybe they're a minority and fear what the cops will do to them ..maybe, maybe, maybe ...the only thing the cops have going at the time of the chase is that the person committed a TRAFFIC offense ..in 90% of those cases

..not enough of a justification

 

[No Limit]

Can you please post a source to this? I am not saying you are lying but what you posted was an opinion; I would like to get some facts before I make a judgement.

Edit: I am talking to Calanen to make this clear; should have quoted.

 

[Hapless]

....but it clearly says:

"South Australian research found that almost 90 per cent of chases began after a routine traffic offence."

maybe they've been watching one too many Dukes of Hazzard re-runs, maybe they have to take a dump and stopping for the cops could lead to stinky underwear, maybe they dont want the cops to find that illegal firearm they have in their trunk, maybe they're a minority and fear what the cops will do to them ..maybe, maybe, maybe ...the only thing the cops have going at the time of the chase is that the person committed a TRAFFIC offense ..in 90% of those cases

..not enough of a justification

So let's encourage people to run from the police. Let's tell them, "Hey, you don't have to stop for the police. After all, a $20 fine isn't enough justification."

As for the stinky underwear, just about every cop has a story about stopping a guy for speeding who claimed to be speeding because they had to take a dump BAD. Most of the time, we let them go. Better safe than sorry. :E

 

[CptStern]

still doesnt change the fact 90% of the times the chase was initiated by a traffic offense ..couldnt you just write down their plate and send them a ticket? ...maybe even visit his home to arrest him for running from the cops at a more convient time?

 

[SupremePain]

"Excuse me, sir, could you please stop and return that TV and let us take you to jail? No? Is there a better time when we can get in touch with you and arrest you, then?"

Are you high? You think it's okay to possible kill little susie whoose playing with her soccer ball just to catch a guy who stole a TV?

Stern pretty much nailed it in, i thought.

 

[GhostFox]

No chase laws are very common. That is nothing. Come to Canada. The YCJA means that kids always get off scott free. The younger ones cannot be charged with anything. Kids here steal cars all day long. There is one 12 year old kid here in winnipeg who in about 6 months, stole 14 vehicles, critically injured 1 person in his first crash, and then killed a mother and daughter in his second (about a month ago maybe). Everytime the police catch him running around in his stolen car, they escort him home. Because he is 12 he is immune from prosecution for his crimes, even the two murders. It is sickening. The cops are tearing their hair out in frustration.

On a side note when talking about cops, 4 RCMP officers were killed yesterday in Alberta when some nut with a rifle gunned them down on his farm. So if you are going to say bad things about the police, just remember that they are going out there every day to put their lives on the line for you and sometimes they lose them.

 

[jondy]

No chase laws are very common. That is nothing. Come to Canada. The YCJA means that kids always get off scott free. The younger ones cannot be charged with anything. Kids here steal cars all day long. There is one 12 year old kid here in winnipeg who in about 6 months, stole 14 vehicles, critically injured 1 person in his first crash, and then killed a mother and daughter in his second (about a month ago maybe). Everytime the police catch him running around in his stolen car, they escort him home. Because he is 12 he is immune from prosecution for his crimes, even the two murders. It is sickening. The cops are tearing their hair out in frustration.

That's pretty ****ed up.

Not really sure what to make of this, there are good arguments on both sides - my instinct says chase the ****ers but looking at the stats I'm not so sure

 

[Hapless]

still doesnt change the fact 90% of the times the chase was initiated by a traffic offense ..couldnt you just write down their plate and send them a ticket? ...maybe even visit his home to arrest him for running from the cops at a more convient time?

First of all, you would have to be able to identify the driver of the vehicle. You can't just send the owner of the vehicle a ticket because someone driving his vehicle committed a traffic offense in it. But, let's say we know who the driver is. We issue a persons wanted or a warrant (persons wanted=issued by police, warrant=issued by a judge) and try to pick him up later. He doesn't answer the door. So we try another time. Still doesn't answer the door. Then a cop sees him out driving again and tries to stop him and he runs again. We let him go, issue another persons wanted or get another warrant. THen we go to his house. He doesn't answer the door. And so on, and so on. BTW, we can only kick in someone's door to get them if it's the address listed on the warrant, we can postively say he's in the house and IT'S NOT FOR A MISDEMEANOR OR TRAFFIC OFFENSE. Unless it's hot pursuit (or fresh pursuit as the Supreme Court calls it.) We can't kick in someone's door on a persons wanted at all, unless it's fresh pursuit. A judge usually won't grant an arrest warrant on a misdemeanor or traffic offense unless the person has already been arrested and fails to appear in court, at which time they will issue a bench warrant, which is technically different than an arrest warrant. As you can see, my job is not as simple as you apparently think it is.

 

[Hapless]

Are you high? You think it's okay to possible kill little susie whoose playing with her soccer ball just to catch a guy who stole a TV?

Stern pretty much nailed it in, i thought.

No, I'm not high. If the suspect kills little Susie while fleeing from the police, the suspect is responsible, and would be charged appropriately. Why is it that people think the police should be held responsible for a suspect's actions? Oh, I know, it's more likely the grieving family can get money from the police department and the police officer than some schmuck who is stealing TV's. Which is really what this boils down to.

 

[Hapless]

On a side note when talking about cops, 4 RCMP officers were killed yesterday in Alberta when some nut with a rifle gunned them down on his farm. So if you are going to say bad things about the police, just remember that they are going out there every day to put their lives on the line for you and sometimes they lose them.

I'm sure there are some on this forum who will say, "Well, that's their job. If they didn't want to die, they shouldn't have become police officers."

 

[CptStern]

First of all, you would have to be able to identify the driver of the vehicle. You can't just send the owner of the vehicle a ticket because someone driving his vehicle committed a traffic offense in it. But, let's say we know who the driver is. We issue a persons wanted or a warrant (persons wanted=issued by police, warrant=issued by a judge) and try to pick him up later. He doesn't answer the door. So we try another time. Still doesn't answer the door. Then a cop sees him out driving again and tries to stop him and he runs again. We let him go, issue another persons wanted or get another warrant. THen we go to his house. He doesn't answer the door. And so on, and so on. BTW, we can only kick in someone's door to get them if it's the address listed on the warrant, we can postively say he's in the house and IT'S NOT FOR A MISDEMEANOR OR TRAFFIC OFFENSE. Unless it's hot pursuit (or fresh pursuit as the Supreme Court calls it.) We can't kick in someone's door on a persons wanted at all, unless it's fresh pursuit. A judge usually won't grant an arrest warrant on a misdemeanor or traffic offense unless the person has already been arrested and fails to appear in court, at which time they will issue a bench warrant, which is technically different than an arrest warrant. As you can see, my job is not as simple as you apparently think it is.

you're still not addressing that most of the chases began with a traffic offense ...a traffic offense IMHO isnt grounds for putting people's lives at risk

 

[No Limit]

First of all, you would have to be able to identify the driver of the vehicle. You can't just send the owner of the vehicle a ticket because someone driving his vehicle committed a traffic offense in it. But, let's say we know who the driver is. We issue a persons wanted or a warrant (persons wanted=issued by police, warrant=issued by a judge) and try to pick him up later. He doesn't answer the door. So we try another time. Still doesn't answer the door. Then a cop sees him out driving again and tries to stop him and he runs again. We let him go, issue another persons wanted or get another warrant. THen we go to his house. He doesn't answer the door. And so on, and so on. BTW, we can only kick in someone's door to get them if it's the address listed on the warrant, we can postively say he's in the house and IT'S NOT FOR A MISDEMEANOR OR TRAFFIC OFFENSE. Unless it's hot pursuit (or fresh pursuit as the Supreme Court calls it.) We can't kick in someone's door on a persons wanted at all, unless it's fresh pursuit. A judge usually won't grant an arrest warrant on a misdemeanor or traffic offense unless the person has already been arrested and fails to appear in court, at which time they will issue a bench warrant, which is technically different than an arrest warrant. As you can see, my job is not as simple as you apparently think it is.

That's strange because there have been many cases here where cops kicked in doors at parties because they thought there was under aged drinking involved. This is part of this party patrol they have going on in our city which is probably found in other places. I was at a party a few months ago and the cops just walked right in without any permission; problem was that most were over 21.

 

[Hapless]

you're still not addressing that most of the chases began with a traffic offense ...a traffic offense IMHO isnt grounds for putting people's lives at risk

I don't need to address it, because it doesn't matter. I've explained to you why it doesn't matter. If we stop chasing people, we might as well not even have a job. Once people figure out that we won't chase them, it's all over.

 

[Hapless]

That's strange because there have been many cases here where cops kicked in doors at parties because they thought there was under aged drinking involved. This is part of this party patrol they have going on in our city which is probably found in other places. I was at a party a few months ago and the cops just walked right in without any permission; problem was that most were over 21.

Where do you live? I don't see how they could get away with that. Hell, most of us here go to stuff like that with our lights and sirens on so they know we're coming. Any underage drinkers left deserve to be arrested. :cheese:

 

[SupremePain]

No, I'm not high. If the suspect kills little Susie while fleeing from the police, the suspect is responsible, and would be charged appropriately. Why is it that people think the police should be held responsible for a suspect's actions? Oh, I know, it's more likely the grieving family can get money from the police department and the police officer than some schmuck who is stealing TV's. Which is really what this boils down to.

Dude... :| can't you see the logic in making someone drive a 2 ton weapon even faster is a really bad idea? the police officers are not directly responsible but they are AS responsible. Their job is to save lives. Not to contribute to a death toll.

 

[CptStern]

I don't need to address it, because it doesn't matter. I've explained to you why it doesn't matter. If we stop chasing people, we might as well not even have a job. Once people figure out that we won't chase them, it's all over.

ya cuz it'll be like something out of Deathrace 3000, where everyone is speeding down the road willy-nilly running over pedestrians for points


look, if even one innocent bystander is killed the ends does not justify the means

 

[Hapless]

Dude... :| can't you see the logic in making someone drive a 2 ton weapon even faster is a really bad idea? the police officers are not directly responsible but they are AS responsible. Their job is to save lives. Not to contribute to a death toll.

I'm not making someone do anything. It is well established that when an officer activates his emergency equipment behind your vehicle, you are too pull to the right and stop. If you choose not to stop, that is your choice. That is YOUR responsibility. Not mine. Is it my fault if a drunk driver takes off from me, I don't chase him, and 20 minutes later he takes out a family?

 

[Hapless]

ya cuz it'll be like something out of Deathrace 3000, where everyone is speeding down the road willy-nilly running over pedestrians for points


look, if even one innocent bystander is killed the ends does not justify the means

If you fail to pull over for me, then you are no longer committing a minor traffic violation. You are now committing Fleeing and Eluding a Peace Officer, a misdemeanor. If you extinguish your lights, exceed the speed limit by 21 or more mph or a couple other things, you are now committing Aggravated Fleeing and Eluding, which is a felony crime.

So would it be worth it if you were a suspect in a home invasion/sexual assault and I chased you?

 

[Razor]

you're still not addressing that most of the chases began with a traffic offense ...a traffic offense IMHO isnt grounds for putting people's lives at risk

Stern, a normal person doesn't just run from the cops for committing a traffic offense. There have been lots of cases where a criminal causes a traffic offense, running a red light, etc, getting away from the crime, the police see them running the red light and try to pull them over, the criminal, who might have raped and murder 30 school children starts to run...are you saying that we should let him run off? Do you have any common sense at all?

Police are trained in high speed pursuits, they are monitored constantly during a chase, they will hang back if going through a residential area if the crimes aren't deemed serious enough, and police helicopters are also used so that police cars can lag back, but to say that police should never chase a driver who speeds off when trying to be pulled over for a traffic offense is absolutely awful in my view. I would much rather see a maniac doing 90 in a built up area or a high street with 3 police cars in toe, then a maniac doing 90 down the high street with no police cars.

 

[Calanen]

Normally, these guys come to the attention of the police for a minor traffic incident. Then the cop car starts following and punches in the number plate. In New South Wales at least, cops don't have to pull you over if there is a traffic violation. They usually do, but don't have to. They can just write you up and post it to you. Then the number plate comes up as a stolen car.......or, incredinly the bad guy is actually using his own car (yeah I know really clever criminals) and the rap sheet comes up with outstanding warrants. And thats why the run.

Soccer mom with 3 kids in the back that rolls through a stopsign, does not say 'Hang on kids, we blowing off da man!' drop down gears and burn rubber. The bad guys do.

And I agree with the policeman - once bad guys know that they will not be chased, and it is starting to get that way in Australia, its all over.....

And No Limit - all of what I said happened, and its kind of tedious to post copies of newspaper articles for everything I say. I rely on you and yours to post 'Calanen is a liar this never happened' if it didn't.

I was hoping the transcript of the 2GB station thing was up - where a police officer wrote to Ray Hadley, and described what happened with the Versace store. I was in the city, I saw the Versace store smashed up, just as the cop said it was. I did not take any photographs of the Versace store, and thte 2GB website does not have transcripts on it. That I could find.

As for the whole Macquarie Fields affair, do a google search on Australian web pages. Its everywhere.

Yes it was an opionion. But one based on facts.

But to the extent I can...:

http://smh.com.au/text/articles/2005/02/27/1109439456996.html?oneclick=true

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,12441301-1702,00.html

At the same time the Versace store thing happened, the police officer (who include his name but Ray withheld it so he does not get a new asshole torn for him - and he would, this government is particularly vicious on what they consider to be 'traitors') faxed what happened to Ray Hadley. I have no doubt that is what happened. In light of the Macquarie Fields thing, and some lefties upset about the car chase, the Premier's Office I imagine, would have told the Police - no more chases, at the moment please....which translated down to Area Command saying let them go.

 

[Calanen]

And Stern, the whole 'if one innocent bystander is killed' also extends to 'if one criminal is killed it means he is given the death sentence for a car chase.' Who is to say that more people will not be killed if these guys are let go instead of stopped?

Ok,if criminals commit crimes, we want them to be as safe as they can be when they do so. Don't want any1 being sentenced to death for less than a capital crime, so how bout these ideas?

- easy access to store fronts, to prevent any criminals being injured by falling plate glass when they do a ram raid;

- ladders with safety harnesses provided up the side of apartment complexes, so that cat burglars can have ready access to ply their trade, and not be injured or killed doing so - for example, if the police were to come and shout out at them to surrender, they may slip and fall and die, which would be a tragedy;

- police officers with cars limited to 20mph, and with kill switches that can be activated by area command, to ensure that the bad guy gets away, and no1 is injured.

All this means that - criminals know - the more I drive like an idiot, the more likely the police chase will be terminated, and the more likely I will get away. Now, what it means, which is even worse, is, however I drive, I will be let go - because no more chases.