if china attempts to invade Taiwan

[_Z_Ryuken]

And then we'd have to cut China off from it's oil. If China presents itself as some kind of war mongering nuke happy baby factory ready to burst, they are going to have more problems to solve than simply who is the next target.
Chine is too resource hungry and Taiwan has too much coal.

 

[bbson john]

Taiwan has never been acknowledged as a separated state in the international stage. Although there are two parties, Taiwan are by no means an independent state. Even the "father of the state", our country initiator, has been the same in Taiwan and China, Dr. Sun Yet Sen.

China couldn't defeat Taiwan, they have very little capability to launch an offensive across water. Their Air Force and Navy are shite, and they would never manage to land enough troops on the island. Taiwan would hold them off indefinitely with their superior technology.

No, we can take over Taiwan within 48 hours, or one week at most. Talking about Navy army, China is inferior I admit. It will be quite a problem if we invade Japan, but it is absolutely not a problem if we were to take over the sea and land on Taiwan.

And then we'd have to cut China off from it's oil. If China presents itself as some kind of war mongering nuke happy baby factory ready to burst, they are going to have more problems to solve than simply who is the next target.
Chine is too resource hungry and Taiwan has too much coal.

I think my Government has discovered a new oil field months ago.

 

[99.vikram]

Taiwan has never been acknowledged as a separated state in the international stage.

The people want to be free of China. China has never done anything beneficial for Taiwan, even by accident.

No, we can take over Taiwan within 48 hours, or one week at most.

That doesn't mean sh*t. What will you do about the international backlash? All the diplomacy and goodwill that China earned will be gone.

I think my Government has discovered a new oil field months ago.

So you're perfectly ok with being isolated from the outside universe?
No wonder communism works there.

 

[bbson john]

The people want to be free of China. China has never done anything beneficial for Taiwan, even by accident.

No, we did. We trade. We lend money to them. We give them pandas. You can't just let Taiwan be an independent state just because the people want to be free. They can still be free under one country, like one country two systems.

That doesn't mean sh*t. What will you do about the international backlash? All the diplomacy and goodwill that China earned will be gone.

We have the ability, but it doesn't mean we have to. In fact, we promised not to take military action against Taiwan, at least not before Taiwan pronouncing independence.

 

[Mr-Fusion]

Nothing will happen.

China is far too important for the world's economies. Not even America is stupid enough to go to war with their biggest work force. Walmart and all those big evil corporations aren't going to give up all that fantastic cheap labour.

When Britain left Hong Kong people were scared that China would institute their regime all over the land, but it didn't happen. China has left Hong Kong more or less to govern itself which is quite nice of the Chinese.

You damn kids!! /shakes fist
.

 

[bbson john]

Not to rain on the parade or anything but why would anyone willingly want to join an oppressive dictatorial police state when you already have democracy, capitalism and relative (it is Asia after all) freedom? Are you confused that Taiwan is not begging for the PRC to take her back?

ONE COUNTRY, TWO SYSTEMS!!! CHECK IT IN WIKIPEDIA!!!!!!!!

Don't scold me 'cos I am using wiki as a source. I am presently living in such condition and the democracy is going fine here. For the reason Taiwan should join PRC, their economy is surely benefited since a wider trade is allowed, as well as a better military defense again foreign aggression. *staring at Japan and America*

 

[99.vikram]

*staring at Japan and America*

Well, maybe the people of Taiwan don't want to join China at all, even if it benefits them.
China, has never held culture or tradition in high regard, so these people feel threatened.

Japan is too busy developing it's economy to wage wars.
And everyone knows America will invade Iran next. Then North Korea, then Cuba, and so on.

 

[bbson john]

Well, maybe the people of Taiwan don't want to join China at all, even if it benefits them.
China, has never held culture or tradition in high regard, so these people feel threatened.

We, now, paid more attention on traditional culture. We are eagerly protecting them. After all, the Taiwaness can still rule themselves after the shift of sovereign. They can rule themselves. They shouldn't have anything to worry about.

Japan is too busy developing it's economy to wage wars.

But the right wing...

 

[nokori3byo]

Could anyone actually stop China if they did that?

According to some experts, Taiwan themselves could. The logistics of launching an amphibious invasion on that scale are nightmarish.

 

[Bob_Marley]

China couldn't defeat Taiwan, they have very little capability to launch an offensive across water. Their Air Force and Navy are shite, and they would never manage to land enough troops on the island. Taiwan would hold them off indefinitely with their superior technology.

The modernisation and expansion of the PLAAF and PLAN is well underway (along with a downsizing and modernization of the PLAGF). The PLAN has bought an aircraft carrier, now effectivly controls the Taiwan Strait with its submarine fleet, the PLAAF is replacing its obselete aircraft with J-10 and Su-27/Su-30 (both purchased from Russia and produced in China as the J-11) variants (Both of which are capable of outmatching anything in the RoC arsenal) and is also developing its own 5th generation Jet fighter comparible with the F-22 (though this is still in early development). The PLAM are also in the process of improving their force projection capablities.

Also, remember, the PLAN doesn't have to rule the worlds oceans to achieve what it needs to like the US, it only needs to control the Taiwan strait for the time being.

Maybe not right now, but at most 5 years, the PRC would crush the RoC with relative ease if they so chose to. Once the PLA got boots on the ground the war would be all but over, as the RoC is almost entirely dependent upon its airforce for defense.

 

[bbson john]

What does Taiwan have?

 

[<RJMC>]

ONE COUNTRY, TWO SYSTEMS!!! CHECK IT IN WIKIPEDIA!!!!!!!!

Don't scold me 'cos I am using wiki as a source. I am presently living in such condition and the democracy is going fine here. For the reason Taiwan should join PRC, their economy is surely benefited since a wider trade is allowed, as well as a better military defense again foreign aggression. *staring at Japan and America*

isnt supposed that system will last for 50 year so at those 50 passed the territories will turn to comunisn?

 

[The Monkey]

China lacks the naval capacity to invade Taiwan, although that can change in a couple of years.

No, we did. We trade. We lend money to them. We give them pandas. You can't just let Taiwan be an independent state just because the people want to be free. They can still be free under one country, like one country two systems.

Why the **** do you care if Taiwan wants to be free of China? Every people has the right to chose which country to belong to. So why don't you get the hell of Taiwan's back and mind your own business. If anything, it's ROC who should liberate PROC.

You can't just let Taiwan be an independent state just because the people want to be free.

That is the dumbest thing I've ever read on this forum.

 

[Bob_Marley]

What does Taiwan have?

about 150 early model F16s (hoping to purchase around another 60 in the near future. Deal currently blocked by US), 50-60 Mirage 2000s, 130 F-CK-1s and 60 or so F5s

The PRC has around 100 Su-30s, 145 Su-27/J-11 (more in production, including the improved J-11B), 70-100+ J-10s (Only recently introduced, more to be produced. Advanced "stealth" 5th generation variant, the J-10C supposedly in development), 250 J8IIs, 500 J-7s (Upgraded MiG-21s). Obviosly, they could not practically deploy the entire might of the PLAAF in position to attack Taiwan, but the Surplus of older aircraft allows them to deploy their best aircraft where they need them.

The same princeple applies to other wings of the PLA, the best trained and equipped units tend to be stationed on the Taiwan strait.

Taiwanese military doctrine is generally that any invasion must be stopped by the airforce and navy and so prevent a landing by the PLAM. Essentially, once that happens the RoC is more or less fooked.

The key to the battle for Taiwan will be air superiority. And with the improvements the PLAAF are making it seems that it is tipping more and more in the PRC's favor, especially with the US's refusal to sell them large numbers of aircraft.

 

[Nemesis6]

For long, I've held the theory that any infantry-assault on Taiwan will fail. Here's why:

The backbone of the Chinese infantries' weaponry is the Type-56, a Chinese copy of the original, Soviet AK47. The author of guns.world*** explains, "Some sources said that quality of those guns was worse than of Soviet original ones. Most notably, at least some Type 56 rifles lacked the chrome plating in the barrel and gas system area, and thus were much less resistant to corrosion."

So, naturally, when the ignorant Chinese rifleman fires his weapon, it'll jam. He presses the trigger again, at this point it screws itself up internally. He tries one last times, and it blows up in his hands. This happens with every one of them. Looking from afar, a Taiwanese commander is scratching his head.

So infantry is out of the question. And apparently, the Taiwanese focus on their airforce. That is probably the most logical defense. If they decide to actually attack with infantry, they should remove all magazines from them and issues orders to attack Banzai style with the mounted bayonets.

 

[bbson john]

Why the **** do you care if Taiwan wants to be free of China? Every people has the right to chose which country to belong to. So why don't you get the hell of Taiwan's back and mind your own business. If anything, it's ROC who should liberate PROC.

First, PRC is in Chinese-styled post-communism, which is greatly difference from former communist rule of terror. People can do almost everything they want in PRC. The Government will not oppress them. Taiwanness should pay no fear on PRC, where they belong to.

Second, we are not tring to "liberate" Taiwan. We are taking over the sovereign. Yet, Taiwanness can still rule themselves, for at least 50 years or more. Until after 50 years, if they feel like they want to keeping ruling themselves, there is no doubt that the one country two systems can continue. So what do Taiwanness fear of?

At last, if the people in Utah want to live free, having their own army, will the US Government let them? No! They will just be oppressed like rioters. This is just the same in China. Taiwanness try to take over Taiwan, but we can't let'em. We may give in, but certainly not give up.

 

[Nemesis6]

Except Utah doesn't have a history involving any kind of sovereignty. Taiwan does. "The Government will not oppress them." This is true. They will not oppress them if they do not:

A: Post something against the government in a yahoo group (Jail)
(This happened in Hong Kong, by the way)
B: Give out bibles on a street corner (Beaten to death by police)
C: Generally just get busted saying something bad about the government in any way (reported by secret agents amongst the populace, random jailtime or beating)

 

[bbson john]

Except Utah doesn't have a history involving any kind of sovereignty. Taiwan does. "The Government will not oppress them." This is true. They will not oppress them if they do not:

If there is a riot, there is a "history" then. Also, how much do you know about the history of China.

A: Post something against the government in a yahoo group (Jail)
(This happened in Hong Kong, by the way)

It didn't happen in Hong Kong. The article 23 failed to be put onto laws. You even don't know what place Hong Kong is.

B: Give out bibles on a street corner (Beaten to death by police)

US Police shot at a pipe repairer to death because they suspected that he was "terrorist". It turned out that it was just another innocent person get killed by police.

p.s. Does not happen in Hong Kong, under one country two systems.

C: Generally just get busted saying something bad about the government in any way (reported by secret agents amongst the populace, random jailtime or beating)

Does not happen in Hong Kong, under one country two systems.

 

[Geogaddi]

US Police shot at a pipe repairer to death because they suspected that he was "terrorist". It turned out that it was just another innocent person get killed by police.

Way to avoid the question there.


Why is it acceptable to even criminalize someone who is doing nothing harmful in any way, much less beat them to death?

 

[bbson john]

Simply type "terrorist innocent US" in google search to see what come out.

 

[Nemesis6]

It didn't happen in Hong Kong. The article 23 failed to be put onto laws. You even don't know what place Hong Kong is.

What do you mean? The Chinese government pushed Yahoo to give them the IP address of a person who had spoken out against the Chinese government, and arrested him in Hong Kong. The bottom line: China did this and something tells me Hong Kong had absolutely nothing to say about it.

US Police shot at a pipe repairer to death because they suspected that he was "terrorist". It turned out that it was just another innocent person get killed by police.

You can't draw parallels. Those guys do their job, and they're only human, as such, they make mistakes. I doubt beating someone to death for handing out a book isn't a mistake.[/quote]

p.s. Does not happen in Hong Kong, under one country two systems.

Well, obviously it does... I mean the woman's dead and the guy's in prison, and if I remember correctly, he was given a lifetime.

By the way, you're in Hong Kong, right? Try entering amnesty.org
Doesn't work? Search on google for "Falun Dafa". Doesn't work either? Now, open two windows: In #1, go to google.cn and image search for "tiananmen" in #2, go to google.com, and do the same. See the difference?

 

[bbson john]

What do you mean? The Chinese government pushed Yahoo to give them the IP address of a person who had spoken out against the Chinese government, and arrested him in Hong Kong. The bottom line: China did this and something tells me Hong Kong had absolutely nothing to say about it.

Source or it didn't happened.

By the way, you're in Hong Kong, right? Try entering amnesty.org
Doesn't work? Search on google for "Falun Dafa". Doesn't work either? Now, open two windows: In #1, go to google.cn and image search for "tiananmen" in #2, go to google.com, and do the same. See the difference?

Remind you. It is Hong Kong here. We don't use www.google.cn, but www.google.com.hk. Similar to that in Taiwan (www.google.com.tw)
Taiwanness can keep it after the shift of sovereign.

This, again, shows the successful one country two systems.

 

[Bob_Marley]

For long, I've held the theory that any infantry-assault on Taiwan will fail. Here's why:

The backbone of the Chinese infantries' weaponry is the Type-56, a Chinese copy of the original, Soviet AK47. The author of guns.world*** explains, "Some sources said that quality of those guns was worse than of Soviet original ones. Most notably, at least some Type 56 rifles lacked the chrome plating in the barrel and gas system area, and thus were much less resistant to corrosion."

So, naturally, when the ignorant Chinese rifleman fires his weapon, it'll jam. He presses the trigger again, at this point it screws itself up internally. He tries one last times, and it blows up in his hands. This happens with every one of them. Looking from afar, a Taiwanese commander is scratching his head.

So infantry is out of the question. And apparently, the Taiwanese focus on their airforce. That is probably the most logical defense. If they decide to actually attack with infantry, they should remove all magazines from them and issues orders to attack Banzai style with the mounted bayonets.

Now, this theory would be sound execpt for:

The Type-81, not the Type-56 is currently the primary Chinese rifle. The AK knock-offs are currently gathering dust in store rooms.

The Type-81 is being replaced by the QBZ-95 and QBZ-03 rifles, and virtually all of Chinas front line units are now equipped with one or the other, starting with, you guessed it, the troops stationed on the Taiwan Strait.

 

[Nemesis6]

Source or it didn't happened.

http://www.wired.com/techbiz/media/news/2006/04/70698 <- Dissident jailed. And this is just ONE example.

http://www.faluninfo.net/displayAnArticle.asp?ID=7587 <- Falun Gong Woman kidnapped and beaten to death. Again, I remind you this is not an isolated incident.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2004/07/04/1146506.htm <- Woman beaten to death for handing out bibles

Remind you. It is Hong Kong here. We don't use www.google.cn, but www.google.com.hk. Similar to that in Taiwan (www.google.com.tw)
Taiwanness can keep it after the shift of sovereign.

Well, the examples mentioned are censored by the great firewall of China. Apparently you're on the other side of it.

 

[Jerry_111]

First, PRC is in Chinese-styled post-communism, which is greatly difference from former communist rule of terror. People can do almost everything they want in PRC. The Government will not oppress them. Taiwanness should pay no fear on PRC, where they belong to.

Second, we are not tring to "liberate" Taiwan. We are taking over the sovereign. Yet, Taiwanness can still rule themselves, for at least 50 years or more. Until after 50 years, if they feel like they want to keeping ruling themselves, there is no doubt that the one country two systems can continue. So what do Taiwanness fear of?

At last, if the people in Utah want to live free, having their own army, will the US Government let them? No! They will just be oppressed like rioters. This is just the same in China. Taiwanness try to take over Taiwan, but we can't let'em. We may give in, but certainly not give up.

What if the Taiwanese don't want anything to do with the one country, two systems policy at all?

 

[Nemesis6]

That is irrelevant. They will bow to Zhonghua Renmin Gongheguo.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Still, after what's happened over in Iraq, I don't think the American people would want to invade another country for a long time.

Oh sure, you'd think that.

Invading China would be a very foolish idea, not even Bush is that stupid.

I think invading China would be the international communities last priority in dealing with the protection of Taiwans sovereignty. Although, if enough international markets and corperations were to be concerned that an open war between Taiwan and China might put at risk the cost they're oversea's manufacturing and outsourcing take to produce goods, if any goods at all, then the highest we'd ever see our country involved on the countries behalf would be diplomacy with the intent to secure our corperate industries manufacturing gains.

If war we're an option, I'd doubt publicly people would be interested in sending our soldiers to protect outsourced jobs, so the propaganda would be litigated to, "The Taiwanese are being oppressed, and well, we believe in the quiet graces that moralit -- ... OH WHO THE HELL CARES PROTECT OUR CORPERATIONS!!1"

 

[bbson john]

http://www.wired.com/techbiz/media/news/2006/04/70698 <- Dissident jailed. And this is just ONE example.

http://www.faluninfo.net/displayAnArticle.asp?ID=7587 <- Falun Gong Woman kidnapped and beaten to death. Again, I remind you this is not an isolated incident.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2004/07/04/1146506.htm <- Woman beaten to death for handing out bibles


Well, the examples mentioned are censored by the great firewall of China. Apparently you're on the other side of it.

The first source and the third source is reliable, to be neutral. Yet, the Second source is questionable. I will be talking about this later. People got beaten by police is not an extensive phenomena in China. There are polices that obey the laws, and there are some who don't. This is the same in USA, some polices beat innocent blacks to death. Will you say the USA is a dangerous place? No. Abuse of power is common on everywhere in the world. It is not correct and has to be mended. However, these occasional incidences prove nothing. Also, those incidences didn't happened in Hong Kong. How the headquarter of Yahoo in Hong Kong helps to prosecute mainland people in the mainland is their commercial decision. You are perfectly safe in Hong Kong. No one gets arrested for political reason in Hong Kong. This shows how successful one country two systems is.

As for the second link, it is a link to falun dafa website. It includes information about how police interrogate the believers of dafa. It can prove something if it is real, but it is not. Most of the news released from the website or their newspaper is fabricated. For example, you read something like this. http://big5.minghui.org/mh/articles/2006/2/22/121366.html

做真相資料　正念顯威力

由於邪惡的干擾，我有幾天不能上網，總出現?不能打開此頁?。突然有一位同修告訴我急需幾十份《洪吟（二）》。我於是發起正念：?清除破壞網絡的邪惡，讓同修們及時看到師父的經文。?這時，我沒有一點雜念，只有這個心願。打開電腦，奇蹟出現了，明慧網清清楚楚呈現在面前，找到《洪吟（二）》，剛下載完，網馬上就斷了。我雙手合十，感謝師父！之後又接連幾天發正念清除破壞網絡的邪惡，終於又能正常上網了。

一位同修也談到有一次正在製作真相資料時，電腦主機突然斷電，重新啟動幾次機器毫無反應。同修馬上立掌發正念，機器啟動了，剛把資料做完，主機又斷電了。第二天請專業人員（常人）一檢查，原來主機電源開關脫焊斷線了，線頭掉下來有一個多釐米遠；對為甚麼能重新啟動，專業人員表示不可理解。同修知道，這是大法的威嚴，正念的威力。

I translate it into English.

*Owing to the evil, I could not surf the net these days. The websites always appeared the words "page could not be found". Suddenly, one of my colleagues told me that I needed to download several pieces of 《the quotation of hung (II)》(a religion document of Falun dafa). So I instituted the field of mind of correctness. "To clear the evil mind which destroyed the Internet, so as to let my colleagues to read our chef's doctrine." At this moment, I had no other thought, but to fulfill my wish. I turned on my computer, the miracle befell. the Minghui website(website for falun dafa) emerged clearly before me. I found 《the quotation of hung (II)》. When I had just finished downloading it, the network shut down again. I closed my hands, thanked my chef! On the following days, I kept releasing the field of mind of correctness to clear the evil destroying the Internet. I finally can surf the net once again.

One of my colleagues has also talked about that once, while he was making a document of facts, the computer lost its power all of a sudden. He restarted his computer for several times but there was absolutely no response. The colleague closed his hands and released the field of mind of correctness. The computer started up. When he had just finished the document, the computer went off-line again. On the other day, a computer repairer (ordinary person) came and checked my computer. He found that the computer lost its power because the power line had broken apart. The two broken ends of the power wire were separated with more than one centimeters. The repairer was astonished and uncomprehending about how the colleague could turn on his computer and finished my work. While his colleagues know, this is the power of dafa, the energy of the field of mind of correctness.*

So falun dafa can violate the basic laws of physics. Is it even make sense? There are lots of pieces of news about how residents in China are interrogated by the Government. I found those news a no longer reliable when I read the piece of "news" aforementioned in the minghui website, the co-website of faluninfo.net.

 

[<RJMC>]

so in that one country 2 sistems thing the added place can keep theyr policie if they want to? for example hong kong can keep theyr policy after the 50 years?

 

[bbson john]

so in that one country 2 sistems thing the added place can keep theyr policie if they want to? for example hong kong can keep theyr policy after the 50 years?

We have our policy for 50 years, or MORE. We are actually in capitalism while mainland China is in communism. The democracy is progressing in Hong Kong, rather than regressing. Universal suffrage, which was not used to be possible under the reign of UK, is within our reach now.

 

[Jintor]

I heard you guys even had a Falun Gong protest in the streets without anyone coming over the beat the **** out of them.

 

[<RJMC>]

We have our policy for 50 years, or MORE. We are actually in capitalism while mainland China is in communism. The democracy is progressing in Hong Kong, rather than regressing. Universal suffrage, which was not used to be possible under the reign of UK, is within our reach now.

so thats means that still in some day you will turn to comunisn anyway?

 

[bbson john]

so thats means that still in some day you will turn to comunisn anyway?

No, but mainland communism turns into capitalism. :shh:

 

[BabyHeadCrab]

We wouldn't have to invade, all we'd have to do is stop buying cheap plastic shit - China's economy as we know it would implode.

Oh wait - this is 'mericuh, we will never stop buying cheap plastic shit.

 

[Dr. Breen]

We wouldn't have to invade, all we'd have to do is stop buying cheap plastic shit - China's economy as we know it would implode.

Oh wait - this is 'mericuh, we will never stop buying cheap plastic shit.

/looks at computer peripherals

D: