If I were Gabe...

AgentSmith

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If I were Gabe I would have done the following with HL2 MP:

First, very simple unspectacular DM with a few maps taken right from the game and using the various HL2 weapons. Certainly this is something that Valve can handle producing given the enormous revenue that HL2 is certain to generate and the amount of time they took making HL2. This MP would have been included in the bronze (cheapest) game package.

Second, Counter-Strike: Source. Maybe the 'main' MP for HL2 I would have made this part of the silver and gold packages and would have started by porting 1.6 over. Working out the kinks we are all experiencing now I would have added/changed the following:

1) Realistic weapons physics. No more of the all bullets travel the same but just inflict differant damages I would have added scope sway to the x-hairs that would be minimal for smaller weapons like SMGs and increased for weapons like the AWP. I would have it so that the weapon dictated the accuracy when moving, standing, etc so that, for instance, an SMG or shotgun is the only weapon that is really accurate on the move with the assault rifles behind that and then the scopped rifles and snipers paying a hefty price for not being stationary and even crouhed. I can go into more detail but the point being that 3 or 4 shots is a kill from any gun, the trick becomes using realistic weapon physics to distingiush the differant weapons. Sniper rifles would be one shot kill in cheast or head but would be not have the static unmoving crosshairs or quick zoom stuff that 1.6 has.

2) Damage, without going into too much detail as I am not a weapon expert number cruncher I would keep the 1 hit kill for headshots but buying a kevlar helmet would make it so a face hit is the only one hit kill and a hit to the rest of the head is more like 50% bonus to damage. 3 or 4 shots with about anything would be a kill and a system of a, say, a 50% dmg bonus for a head hit and 50% penalty for arm or leg hit. Point being that I would set it up to make HS something that takes some skill, random sprayed HS are far too frequent in CS, IMHO and kevlar helmet should make it a bit more difficult. The days of 8 or 9 hits for a kill would be gone, it simply is ridiculous to have people jumping and dancing around each other unload clips wiating to get a kill - gameplay is the main goal but keeping with the more realistic look and physics more realistic damage is essential to the experience.

3) Movement has to be dialed back from the Quake DM style of CS. Jumping 6 feet high and the Carl Lewis length of jumps would be dialed back and shooting while jumping would be an excercise in reducing your ammo count, not getting kills.

4) Maps would be non linear and open. Classice certainly have a place but the old practice of run to choke point A or B and fire, rinse and repeat can be expanded on to included more open areas and a good mix of choke points for firefights and open areas for tactics and even stealth. A little more space would be good too but not too big as quick rounds are important to the whole CS style. Porting the big maps like office, dust, dust2, and a few others would be a must but at least 2 or 4 new maps with a new 'style' would give the game a new dimension and maybe inspire mappers to come up with some new stuff.

5) Physics are important to Source and need to be important in any game running on Source to get the egnine's full ability worked into the gameplay. Just plopping items here and there that move is silly and detracts from play. Instead of that I would strategically place some items to allow them to be part of play instead of a footnote. Example, having doors that move when you bump then so they can be closed and even blocked with other objects in the area - nades could clear them even blowing them off thier hinges. Also, flying objects would inflict damage on anything they hit.

6) The money system, I think this may be a small thing but I would have a server setting to allow for two money systems. One for competition that is mainly rewarding on a team bases and one that is for public servers that rewards more on an individual basis. It could be something like on a public server you get 60% of money from your actions (plant bomb, pick up bomb, kill a guy, etc) and 40% from your teams performance (winning the rnd, getting some hosties, planting the bomb even if defused). Point is that there should be rewards for working the objectives and not just completing them. This would alleviate the team stacking on public servers to a degree and encourage players to go for the objectives as working them even if not completing them would yield reward.

I think this would not take a ton of 'work' over and above what the normal port has taken and the extra money from getting people into silver or gold would make up for it. It would still be CS but instead of CS on Source it would be CS WITH Source, big differance. It would also not be so differant that it would eliminate the future for CS2, in fact it would lay a good groundwork for whatever is next for CS. I thnk the key is the use of physics part and the weapons physics. On the weapons it is just, IMHO, so dated to have a simple 'better gun takes less bullets' to kill system like CS has now. A new system that bases the weapon performance on its type would encourage new dimensions of gameplay where some maps might necessitate SMGs for run and gun accuracy while others need assault rifles for a good balance and maybe some sniper use. Take an SMG - as it is now the only real differance between it and an AK47 is that it takes twice the bullets to kill - both players act the same even as they are equipted totally differantly. Realistic or advanced weapon physics with bullet drop and based on weapon type would pit player against player instead of gun verse gun. I might only have an SMG but if we meet in a moving firefight I got the advantage while if we meet at mid or longer range you are superior. The advanced penetration matrix that Source has would play to this as well wtih differant materials being able to be penetrated by the appropriate weapons. Anyways, think about how it would work in a map like Office with tight halls SMGs and shottys would be great but on a map like dust with more focused choke points assault rifles would be the way to go but you could also go SMG and rush, your style would have to match your weapon and you would have to adapt your tactics to the situation. New more open and diverse maps would also highlight this new dimension more.

Anyways, aside from going on a diet that is what I would do if I was Gabe. I think it would bring new life (and new people) to CS/HL2 which would yield more money now and more money come CS2 time and it would fulfil the hype and promise that a long awaited game like HL2 has and that is NEW gameplay, CS:S just isn't new and doesn't live up to all HL2 was supposed to be. Something like the above would ALSO provide a good base for the MODs that are planeed to spring from, having just a plain 'ole sloppy CS:S port doesn't give MODs much to work with and detracts from the liklihood of great lasting MODs emerging.
 
Frank said:

Are all 1700+ of your posts as useless as that one? If you don't like what I posted then leave the thread, no need to be an a$$.

I left off one thing, I would drop 56K support. Part of what we are seeing in CS:S is the comprimises that come from having to cater the netcode to support 56k and there is simply too much limit on what you can do when you include 56k support. maybe the simple HL2 DM could have the dumbed down physics and include 56k support but CS:S, as we can see, suffers to much flayiness mixing dial up and broadband users and just limits the amount of 'Source' stuff you can do. Several succesful MP titles (and ALL of the 'next gen engines') have done this so I would not worry about this affecting the titles success at all.
 
Art_Crime, I'd say it's more like "we're lucky you aren't Gabe."
 
ROFL look who it is....and once again bitching about hl2dm and cs source...
 
perrkele said:
Art_Crime, I'd say it's more like "we're lucky you aren't Gabe."

Maybe you are lucky but at least you would have a new game and not a sloppy port of a 5 year old game. Certainly there is something to be said about having something new that fully utilizes the engine you are buying when you get HL2 and even if the idea is not to your exact liking a more advanced MP from Valve would mean more advacned and dynamic MODs to come later.

HollowTipz said:
ROFL look who it is....and once again bitching about hl2dm and cs source...

It is a suggestion, only a fanboy like yourself would take it as a bitch.
 
Well, I'm glad you have the intiative to put your own ideas out there, but I think the realism you are going for would detract from fun.

There are plenty of mods out there going for "super realism" (Insurgency comes to mind), so join one of those.
 
I don't think it would change play that much - it would just achieve the same or similar play via a differant route. For instance, adding the dimension of differant weapons having differant purposes instead fo the flat single diminsion of more money equals faster killer. You might need less bullets under my idea to kill but you would miss more if you are not using it in its 'element' so the net result is similar.

I think part of the need for something like this from Valve is that MODs are going to have one hell of a tough time implementing whole new systems like weapon physics and the like - with HL2 coming out with no real MP all they have to MOD is CS with better graphics and the funky force field barrels. Not sure I can impart my menaing here well but CS didn't really change Quake DM much, it added the differing gui stuff and the diff models and stuff and the round bases thing but from a technical level it didn't alter the engine - if just rearranged and altered the values of what was there. I understand and acknowledge how revolutionary these changes where at the time and am not taking away from that. Now, what Valve did with the Quake engine was sorta like what people think MODs are going to do with Source (but I doubt) and that is adding new systems and heavily modifying existing ones to give us a 'real' Source MP. I cannot think of one MOD that has ever done that - in the end MODs are at thier core the same as the parent game with a differant out skin, the underlying game and such remains just as the Quake movement, weapon physics (simple as they may be), and other elements remain in CS today.
 
Lucky for us that you're not Gabe and can't ruin our game with your realism.
 
impakt said:
Lucky for us that you're not Gabe and can't ruin our game with your realism.

That is the point - nothing done to a new game changes the old game (of which there are now two, CS and CZ). Why in the world would you want the same game over and over? You want graphics to advance and improve and physics to advance and improve and netcode to advance and improve but the play is somehow supposed to never change? That doesn't make any sense at all. In fact, it makes about as little sense as it would if HL2 came out and was simply HL1 with source graphics and physics and nothing else differant.
 
MiccyNarc said:
I wish to God you were Gabe.

I promise you one thing; if I were and you owned CS, CZ, and CS:S - you would have three differant games instead of three boxes with the same game with differant graphics.
 
1, 2, and 3... no way...

4... sounds fun...

5... I agree... I'm pretty disappointed with how the physics system was implemented... that leads into your point about 56k support... if that's what it takes to get physics that actually work, so be it...



I also agree about not really having a "jump-off" point for mods... we're being left to figure out just how we actually can use the "good" physics and new stuff like the manipulator in multiplayer all on our own...
 
Agree with ideas 1, 2, and 3 or not wouldn't you agree that something other than Quake 2 style CS is beyond due? I mean in 5 years games have evolved in so many differant directions - even the Quake/CS style stuff. Just porting over the 'gameplay' to the new engine is stupid and shortchanging the community and the game.
 
in my opinion, cs source is great, but yah something new would be nice.

have patience my friend. plenty of new content is just around the corner :)
 
Mac said:
have patience my friend. plenty of new content is just around the corner :)

I don't know how you can say that - in the world of CS the whether you can pick up a dead guys grenade or not is considered a major change/update and takes 3 years to implement so I wouldn't be holding my breath for CS:S to be anything more than it is right now, save a few more player models to miss because of the crap netcode. :farmer:
 
The minute Valve drops 56k support for Cs:S(if they do), i will hunt down a nd kill anyone who agrees its a good decision. I will be a Terrhighspeeder. I terroize high speeders muahhahahaha!
 
Minerel said:
The minute Valve drops 56k support for Cs:S(if they do), i will hunt down a nd kill anyone who agrees its a good decision. I will be a Terrhighspeeder. I terroize high speeders muahhahahaha!

Well, given how you 56k b00bs shoot in game I won't be too worried. :thumbs:
 
i dont even understand how 56k ppl can get their hands on CSS lol i remember my 56k .... i cant imagine it
 
i think you shouldnt talk about someone you dont even know, just because gabe is on the heavy side, doesnt mean he has to go on dieet etc etc, you talkin bull**** my friend
and ffs plz people, it isnt about how "fat" gabe is..its about the game, what im seeing is that people are more concerned about gabe wheight, than the game itself.

sorry for bad english
 
AgentSmith said:
I don't know how you can say that - in the world of CS the whether you can pick up a dead guys grenade or not is considered a major change/update and takes 3 years to implement so I wouldn't be holding my breath for CS:S to be anything more than it is right now, save a few more player models to miss because of the crap netcode. :farmer:

ah i meant other mods and new stuff valve produces, ie team fortress 2.
 
Mac said:
ah i meant other mods and new stuff valve produces, ie team fortress 2.

Well, as I mentioned I think the liklihood of MODs being of any quality are slim given that Valve couldn't even create a true Source multiplayer. I mean if Valve couldn't make the physics work without this goofy force field thing then are we to believe some MOD people can? Same with the netcode and other issues.

As for TF2 and other such thing those are, as I understand, seperate retail titles so unless they are giving them away it is irrelevant to this discussion. Heck, even if they do give them away it is still a pretty huge ripoff given that they go my money weeks ago and those products are many weeks away.
 
AgentSmith said:
That is the point - nothing done to a new game changes the old game (of which there are now two, CS and CZ). Why in the world would you want the same game over and over? You want graphics to advance and improve and physics to advance and improve and netcode to advance and improve but the play is somehow supposed to never change? That doesn't make any sense at all. In fact, it makes about as little sense as it would if HL2 came out and was simply HL1 with source graphics and physics and nothing else differant.

I play CS on a competitive level, so yes, I want the same game. I dont wan't major changes that takes out the skill I've earned after playing since the initial release of cs beta1 back in 99. I want the transition from cs to cs:s to be minimal, merely a cosmetique difference. And thats not the same as if HL2 was HL1 with better graphics, cause HL is a singleplayergame.
 
tru stop bitching to us about ur probs y not go mail sumone who has an effect on the games outcome lol
 
AgentSmith said:
Well, as I mentioned I think the liklihood of MODs being of any quality are slim given that Valve couldn't even create a true Source multiplayer. I mean if Valve couldn't make the physics work without this goofy force field thing then are we to believe some MOD people can? Same with the netcode and other issues.

As for TF2 and other such thing those are, as I understand, seperate retail titles so unless they are giving them away it is irrelevant to this discussion. Heck, even if they do give them away it is still a pretty huge ripoff given that they go my money weeks ago and those products are many weeks away.
We discussed the physics in CS:S before and came to the conclusion that the reason they made the physics so wonky is to ensure that they don't really change the strategy and tactics of CS players. Its to keep the purists happy and the physics will be done properly for HL2 and any other mods.
 
Hish said:
i think you shouldnt talk about someone you dont even know, just because gabe is on the heavy side, doesnt mean he has to go on dieet etc etc, you talkin bull**** my friend

Actually, my illiterate friend, YOU are talking bullshit. If you saw gabe years ago, he was much healthier, he is way overweight now. He does need to lose weight, he's unhealthy at his current weight. He is without a doubt not a healthy individual anymore, however I do agree people on here should shut up about his weight, I'm betting a lot of those who rag on him being overweight, are probably pretty chubby themselves.
 
impakt said:
I play CS on a competitive level, so yes, I want the same game. I dont wan't major changes that takes out the skill I've earned after playing since the initial release of cs beta1 back in 99. I want the transition from cs to cs:s to be minimal, merely a cosmetique difference. And thats not the same as if HL2 was HL1 with better graphics, cause HL is a singleplayergame.

Typical CS logic (or lack thereof). THEN PLAY THE SAME GAME, CS 1.6. If it is perfect, if you have so little skill that you cannot adapt to a new video game with differances then PLAY THE SAME GAME, CS 1.6.

The Mullinator said:
We discussed the physics in CS:S before and came to the conclusion that the reason they made the physics so wonky is to ensure that they don't really change the strategy and tactics of CS players. Its to keep the purists happy and the physics will be done properly for HL2 and any other mods.

Now that is simply nonsensical. Valve intentionally made the physics crappy and intentionally made a MP for HL2 that doesn't use the engine's capabilities to keep it the same as the old game. That, in essence, is what you are suggesting. Even if that where true and it wasn't just a case of the enigine not being able to deliver the physics to MP in an effecient usable way it would mean that when you buy HL2 you are getting ripped off because you are not getting a HL2/Source MP, you are getting the same old Quake 2 DM MOD and that is the main beef. Either way (I tend to think it is clearly the later and Source is just not able to deliver decent physics to MP) the customer is getting shortchanged and it is entirely unlikely that MODs will do better. Certainly there is alot of talent out there on MOD teams, but nothing that matches what a true game developer can bring to bear. There is no way any of these planned MODs are going to do what Valve couldn't, they will re-skin and re-model with great success but they will not reinvent Source MP and figure out how to make it work where Valve failed.
 
AgentSmith said:
As for TF2 and other such thing those are, as I understand, seperate retail titles so unless they are giving them away it is irrelevant to this discussion. Heck, even if they do give them away it is still a pretty huge ripoff given that they go my money weeks ago and those products are many weeks away.

if you are refferring to buying hl2 off steam, that was your own discretion, how is valve ripping you off? you knew that you wouldnt get hl2 immediately after purchasing it off steam.

And as far as i know teamfortress 2 will be off the source engine so the same stuff that applies in this discussion will apply to teamfortress 2.

to me it sounds like you are a pessimistic. Is there no possibility for improvement? As you should have learned from previous valve games, they do update them quite often to fix problems that crop up. Who is to say this is going to change for Source?
 
TF2 is going to be a seperate retail title, or so that is what Valve has said to date at least. CS:S per Valve is the MP for HL2, the fact that it is buggy, sloppy, and doesn't even utilize the Source engine fully is perfectly good reason to be miffed. If when HL2 comes out the same can be said of the single player then I am sure people would be crying foul - so why should it be any differant for people who buy games for MP as much (or even more) than SP.

Look, I am not a fan of the CS for HL2 multiplayer - I bet that much is obvious. However, that being said, had Valve at least given me a Counter Strike that was MADE to run with Source instead of just Counter Strike that happens to run on Source I would be OK with that. It is subtle but important distinction - think of getting a part for something and it is made for that somthing verses getting a part that you have to modify and jerry-rig to get to work. CS:S is jerry-rigged to work on Source, it is not designed for Source and that is less than the community deserves, IMHO.
 
what are your credentials on this matter? Unless you work for valve i dont see how you can pass this opinion that cs source is ''jerry-rigged" as a fact, as this appears what you are doing. I don't see how Counter-Strike source is just "cs that happens to run on source" as apposed to "cs that was made to run with source." your throwing words around without any hard evidence, and that my friend irks me just a little.

yes it is buggy, but i wouldnt go so far as to say that cs:source is 'jerry-rigged.' How do you even know what it's supposed to be like? How do you even know that it could be better than what has been given to us, when hl2 hasnt even been released yet? what are you comparing it to?
 
Mac said:
what are your credentials on this matter? Unless you work for valve i dont see how you can pass this opinion that cs source is ''jerry-rigged" as a fact, as this appears what you are doing. I don't see how Counter-Strike source is just "cs that happens to run on source" as apposed to "cs that was made to run with source." your throwing words around without any hard evidence, and that my friend irks me just a little.

yes it is buggy, but i wouldnt go so far as to say that cs:source is 'jerry-rigged.' How do you even know what it's supposed to be like? How do you even know that it could be better than what has been given to us, when hl2 hasnt even been released yet? what are you comparing it to?

Come on, there is no way you can objectively say that CS:S is a Source game - it is clearly just a ported Quake MOD and a sloppilly ported one at that. Look the the various game elements, all are straight from the Quake 2 engine that CS was MADE FOR. It isn't a game that was made to run on Source, it is a Quake 2 game made to work on Source. CS:S is near exactly the same as CS (with some missing stuff and more bugs) but with better graphics and funky physics that only really amount to aesthetic additions. No vehicles (something 5 year old engines couldn't do), now new maps (something 5 year old engines couldn't do), no expansive non linear maps (something 5 year old engines couldn't do), no customizable player models (something 5 year old engines couldn't do), no long view distances or even any long distances 'cause the maps are nearly exactly the same, no nothing that new game engines can do except for better graphics and the goofy physics (which are arguably a detriment to gameplay). In short, CS:S offers no new content, no new gameplay, no new additions or abilities save for some aesthetic improvements.

Let me 'prove' this with a question - of HL2 single player was HL:Source would you be happy? Of course not. You would feel ripped off and disappointed because even though HL:Source has better graphics it is the SAME game you allready have and doesn't take advantage of all the great hyped features that this Source engine is supposed to have.
 
AgentSmith said:
Typical CS logic (or lack thereof). THEN PLAY THE SAME GAME, CS 1.6. If it is perfect, if you have so little skill that you cannot adapt to a new video game with differances then PLAY THE SAME GAME, CS 1.6.

You don't seem to follow my lead, every big tournamenthost will eventually move to cs:s and that's why I can't stick to 1.6.


and btw It's spelled differences, not differances.
 
impakt said:
You don't seem to follow my lead, every big tournamenthost will eventually move to cs:s and that's why I can't stick to 1.6.

and btw It's spelled differences, not differances.

I seriously doubt that for two reasons:
One - if CS:S is the same as CS then there is no reason to go to CS:S (just takes more money and runs slower which is bad for competiton). The hardcore CS people will remain with old CS.
Two - given the above the only way CS:S can really thrive is if it is CHANGED to use all Source can do (instead of just mimicking an outdated 5 year old engine) and if that happens then you will have old CS and new CS and maybe competition ladders for both.

Anyways, aside from the above (which I admit is pressumptive) the fact is that with your logic you could argue for games never advancing but that would be silly. Something comes out and it is great but esp in PC stuff and gaming nothing is the best for long - technology changes what can be done and that has to be explored or why bother. Graphics and gameplay both have to follow this - I mean you could say "NO, don't make CS:S graphics better because my system will run slower and I won't be as good in competition" Or "I have a crap PC and cannot play a better graphics game" or something to that effect for physics or any new advancement but the point is if YOU are incapable of advancing then you can stick with the original. If the world all around you advances then you will just get left behind but that is the way things go - you adapt and you move on.

CS exists in all its glory (competition ladders and pub servers galore) for ONE reason above all others. in its time it was simply the most unique and advanced multiplayer there was and for HL2 MP to go forward in that veign it needs to be the same. Sure, MODs will come - but MODs are just that - modifications and Valve has given nothing of merit to modify with CS:S. It is just a port of a 5 year old game with all that 5 year old game's limitations, MODers are not going to modify that into some revolutionary new game that doess all Sourse was promised to do. CS:S falls in that trap in that so long as it is pretty much just regular CS ladders will stick with it, the only way CS can continue on Source is if CS is remade to work with all Source has to offer, IMHO.
 
AgentSmith said:
Come on, there is no way you can objectively say that CS:S is a Source game - it is clearly just a ported Quake MOD and a sloppilly ported one at that. Look the the various game elements, all are straight from the Quake 2 engine that CS was MADE FOR. It isn't a game that was made to run on Source, it is a Quake 2 game made to work on Source. CS:S is near exactly the same as CS (with some missing stuff and more bugs) but with better graphics and funky physics that only really amount to aesthetic additions. No vehicles (something 5 year old engines couldn't do), now new maps (something 5 year old engines couldn't do), no expansive non linear maps (something 5 year old engines couldn't do), no customizable player models (something 5 year old engines couldn't do), no long view distances or even any long distances 'cause the maps are nearly exactly the same, no nothing that new game engines can do except for better graphics and the goofy physics (which are arguably a detriment to gameplay). In short, CS:S offers no new content, no new gameplay, no new additions or abilities save for some aesthetic improvements.

Let me 'prove' this with a question - of HL2 single player was HL:Source would you be happy? Of course not. You would feel ripped off and disappointed because even though HL:Source has better graphics it is the SAME game you allready have and doesn't take advantage of all the great hyped features that this Source engine is supposed to have.


Im not looking for an argument here, but maybe you dont quite have the right interpriation of what cs:source is.

it is not a new game, it is a direct port. They never said there would be new content, such as most of the things listed above, they said they were porting cs 1.6 to the source engine in order to take advantage of its physics and graphics. This means there will not be new vehicles, new non linear maps, ect ect until they decide to add them in an update, if at all.
I agree that they could have put more effort into the physics, but i also think that and physics that are larger than the current objects (like doors blowing off ect) would effect the netcode too much and thus make it laggier for all. I dont have any solid proof of this but its just a personal opinion.

I also very much doubt that 56k support will be removed because IMO with the introduction of steam, they are just making cs more and more noob friendly, and i would suspect many casual gamers would be on a cheap 56k plan, not having the need for broadband.
 
Carnage_333 said:
it is not a new game, it is a direct port. They never said there would be new content, such as most of the things listed above, they said they were porting cs 1.6 to the source engine in order to take advantage of its physics and graphics. This means there will not be new vehicles, new non linear maps, ect ect until they decide to add them in an update, if at all.

I agree that they could have put more effort into the physics, but i also think that and physics that are larger than the current objects (like doors blowing off ect) would effect the netcode too much and thus make it laggier for all. I dont have any solid proof of this but its just a personal opinion.

I also very much doubt that 56k support will be removed because IMO with the introduction of steam, they are just making cs more and more noob friendly, and i would suspect many casual gamers would be on a cheap 56k plan, not having the need for broadband.

I agree with what you say there, 100%. That is the problem, IMHO. With no new MP there is not a starting point for MODs to work from. MODs can re-skin and re-model to change a MP but no MOD as ever completely invented or reinvented a MP. CS sorta did but only in the rounds mode - the rest is just re-skinned and re-modelled Quake 2 DM where dmg attributes are changed to fit the new weapons and the like. But nothing new was coded in, nothing original was developed - that is the domain of developers not MODers. Look at BF and DC, basically they are the same thing but the theme is changed. In fact the one big thing they 'added', helicopters - have to use the plane flight model (albeit MODed) so they really don't fly like Helis. This is the limitation I am talking about and without Valve having created a MP that at least offers all of Source in an online environment there is not anything there to be MODed, or very little at least.

I mean can anyone name one MOD that is differant than its parent game in any substantive way? As I said CS did the round based thing, that was new and differant but it didn't modify what the enigne could do, just changed the GUI and other thing that where allready there. The movement, weapon physics (how the bullets travelled, the player movement, the map limitations, etc). I just don't think people get what is involved in creating a 'next generation' MP game - heck, HUGE developers like EA, UbiSoft, Atari, Epic, and the like have all struggled with bringing these next generation features to MP, do we really expect a MOD team to do this with the same quality result? Unlikely I think.

That being said if the decision to port CS as HL2 MP was thier plan all along then my point in this thread is that CS should have been changed at least enough to use to all of Source. New source versions of maps and not just the same map with a few items that roll around - new source featurse like player model selection that let you change outfits instead of just picking one model or another - new Source physics that are PART of gameplay instead of something you shoot while running to one of the map's two chokepoints - new Source environments that are open, detailed, and non linear, possibly even a couple vehicles to tranport you around new, larger SOurce maps - new Source wepaon physics instead of the old Quake two park x-hair in spot and shot exactly to that spot no matter how far or whatever - new Source weapon variety and equipting possiblities. Sure it can still be CS, and doesn't have to be CS2 - but I think it did need to be CS on Source and not just CS with Source graphics.

If they had done this then we would still have old CS for the die hards and a new CS for those who want more than that old Quake 2 gameplay (with all its limitations). We would also have a great game for MODers to start with and create some great MODs and Valve would have a great launching prequal for the real next CS, CS2. I can best point you to the BF series to see how this SHOULD have gone down. BF '42 is like CS in this example, BF:V is like what CS:S should have been, and BF2 is like what CS2 would be down the road. EA allways planned a DC style true sequal to BF '42 but the technology was a bit off in the distance so they reworked the refractor engine and released BF:V/ BF:V was basically BF '42 with a few new additions like heat seeking missles, a true helicopter flight model so they flew like Helis and not ackward planes, and some other enhancements (mainly graphics and the like). Weapons changed according to the time perion change and overall BF:V (except for an early problem with balance of Helis) was an infantry map instad of BF '42 which was more a vehicle battle with infantry as support. Now BF2 is slated for early next year and it goes far further with physics, ragdolls, 100+ people online, and all sorts of other goodies with the Refractor two engine. Had Valve followed this model then we would have original CS, then a Source reworked CS, and the stage would be set for CS2 and the like.
 
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