Immigration

[Solaris]

What's your opinion on immigration both legal and illegal in your own countries?

Personally I'd like to see relaxed controls to make lives better for the illegal immigrants amongst us.


Woot 2000th politics thread.

 

[repiV]

What's your opinion on immigration both legal and illegal in your own countries?

Personally I'd like to see relaxed controls to make lives better for the illegal immigrants amongst us.


Woot 2000th politics thread.

I should forward that one to the Liberal Democrats in order that they reconsider their policy on letting 16 year olds vote...

 

[kirovman]

I would prefer to see a less arbitrary policy.

I'm a bit disconcerted about how the government turns a blind eye to illegals, whilst treating legal (or prospective) immigrants harshly.


I also hope there isn't going to be laws against me emmigrating with lots of money in the future.

edit- I probably should have elaborated more on what I meant, but can't be bothered right now.

 

[Beerdude26]

I'd like to see some more actions to make illegal immigrants legal. Some of them have been here for years, they've got a house and a family and often speak Dutch or French (our national languages) decently, but they don't have a passport. :|

We've already gone through the "16 year olds should be able to vote" debate here. We agreed that it wasn't exactly a smart idea.

 

[repiV]

I'd like to see a return to the only sensible method of managing immigration, which is allow it when it benefits us and deny it when it doesn't.
And we should not allow immigration to tear our identity and culture apart as it is currently doing. Some parts of London, you could be mistaken for thinking you're in India or Iran...
Non-citizens should not be afforded the same rights to be contentious regarding the fundamental tenets of our society as citizens have, either. Come here and talk about destroying the West and get booted out, permanently.

 

[Asknoone]

I would prefer to see a less arbitrary policy.

Pretty much. We need more control over immigration as a whole. That doesn't mean relaxing the law on illegal migrants either. I'm all for integration of society, but were far too lax on whom, when where.

I'd like to see a return to the only sensible method of managing immigration, which is allow it when it benefits us and deny it when it doesn't.
And we should not allow immigration to tear our identity and culture apart as it is currently doing. Some parts of London, you could be mistaken for thinking you're in India or Iran...
Non-citizens should not be afforded the same rights to be contentious regarding the fundamental tenets of our society as citizens have, either. Come here and talk about destroying the West and get booted out, permanently.

Once upon a time, all the land on this Earth was a single mass. I'd hardly call what you are describing as 'tearing our culture apart.' Some parts? It isn't exactly the whole of London is it? I'm all for booting out people who talk about destroying the west (permanently as well), but in light of that we really need less in the way of Islam phobia, which seems to dominate this country.

 

[kirovman]

At the same time, I feel we shouldn't be that protectionist with regards to work.

In a free market Europe, a lot of people complain about the Poles coming over. But the door swings both ways.

Well, if the Poles can work harder for cheaper, then maybe that'll encourage some people to get off their backsides...

 

[Beerdude26]

Belgium has a .008% population growth rate, we could use some immigrants

 

[Asknoone]

Well, if the Poles can work harder for cheaper, then maybe that'll encourage some people to get off their backsides...

Exactly. I'm sick and tired of hearing people pissing on about foreigners coming over to our country and 'stealing' our jobs. Its ridiculous. The only people complaining are those rumbling around on the dole in a bed sit somewhere. These people are working harder for cheaper, because they want the job and they want to work. Then you get someone with a reasonable line of work moaning about it because they can. Because they hear it down the pub and adopt it as 'wrong' without the common sense to actually think about it.

 

[repiV]

Pretty much. We need more control over immigration as a whole. That doesn't mean relaxing the law on illegal migrants either. I'm all for integration of society, but were far too lax on whom, when where.

You can't have integration without controlled immigration...

Once upon a time, all the land on this Earth was a single mass. I'd hardly call what you are describing as 'tearing our culture apart.' Some parts? It isn't exactly the whole of London is it? I'm all for booting out people who talk about destroying the west (permanently as well), but in light of that we really need less Islam phobia that seems to dominate this country.

It's enough. Large swarthes of London just do not feel like home anymore. I live quite close to Wembley (and worked there for a while)...it's like another world. Every other shop is an Indian shop, you hardly ever see a white person (except in the office - which is rather like an alternate universe within an alternate universe) and English can rarely be heard.
Also, it's really, really, really dirty and rundown. And the Christmas lights they have up in the streets are all Hindu displays.
Is it such a bad thing to want to feel at home when you're at home?
If I go on holiday to India, I want to visit India, not England. And I also want to come home to England, not India, when I return.

Not to say that Islamophobia is warranted, but I believe Muslims generally have themselves to blame for it. There's a reason we have Islamophobia, but not Hinduophobia, Buddhophobia, or similar for any other religion on the planet - despite most of them being more well-represented in British society.
If there was less whining about cartoons insulting Mohammed and more integration and support for Western values then there wouldn't be anywhere near as much of a problem.
If you walked around dressed in a Jedi robe, or something else overbearingly obvious that clearly identifies you as different from everyone else, held beliefs that completely contradicted the fundamental ideals of the mainstream, kept to your own little community of Jedi robe-wearers and said nothing when other members of your community blow things up and try to build enormous mega-sized places of worship, then became suddenly outraged at people's attempts to suppress the divisiveness you are causing, would you be the one responsible for creating "Jedi-o-phobia"? You betcha. Same thing here.

 

[repiV]

At the same time, I feel we shouldn't be that protectionist with regards to work.

In a free market Europe, a lot of people complain about the Poles coming over. But the door swings both ways.

Well, if the Poles can work harder for cheaper, then maybe that'll encourage some people to get off their backsides...

That's quite true. On the other hand, unemployment in London is high and where do new immigrants flock to? London.

We have the highest unemployment in the country at 8.4%...for people in my age group it's far higher. It's VERY difficult to get a first job...it took me months, and it's not like I'm unskilled!

 

[Raziaar]

I'm all for legal immigration. I've never been one of those people who thinks the borders should be closed up.

But... illegal immigration needs to be dealt with. Proper ways for people who want to live here, but are currently illegal, need to be put into place if they are viable canidates for being united states citizens. In the same ways that legal immigrants had to attain their citizenship.

 

[kirovman]

Large parts of the world do feel very British, namely the Commonwealth countries.

We have the highest unemployment in the country at 8.4%...for people in my age group it's far higher. It's VERY difficult to get a first job...it took me months, and it's not like I'm unskilled!

Yeah... took me 4 or 5 months. And we're probably too centralised as an economy to be honest.

However, youth unemployment in France for example is much higher though.

And the thing about pushing everyone into Universities, that's just to keep them off the dole (and their parents and/or loan paying) for 3 or 4 more years.

 

[repiV]

Large parts of the world do feel very British, namely the Commonwealth countries.

We once ruled them...that's to be expected. Although as an empire, we tended to leave the subject cultures alone rather than alter them to our liking. Something that is seemingly reflected by our attitude to immigration - let them do whatever they want.

Edit: damn your edit!

Yeah... took me 4 or 5 months. And we're probably too centralised as an economy to be honest.

However, youth unemployment in France for example is much higher though.

And the thing about pushing everyone into Universities, that's just to keep them off the dole (and their parents and/or loan paying) for 3 or 4 more years.

Yeah, but France is a socialist scumhole where you're bound by law to work a maximum of 35 hours a week. We should really be aiming higher.
I feel this policy of trying to get half the population into university is horrifically misguided...

 

[Beerdude26]

It's enough. Large swarthes of London just do not feel like home anymore. I live quite close to Wembley (and worked there for a while)...it's like another world. Every other shop is an Indian shop, you hardly ever see a white person (except in the office - which is rather like an alternate universe within an alternate universe) and English can rarely be heard.
Also, it's really, really, really dirty and rundown.
Is it such a bad thing to want to feel at home when you're at home?
If I go on holiday to India, I want to visit India, not England. And I also want to come home to England, not India, when I return.

So, what to do now? They have 'infiltrated' our working areas and are now pretty hard to remove.

Maybe start a dialog between them? And don't tell me that there isn't a single one that can't speak English in there Since you seem pretty confident that they're a community within a community, surely there has to be some kind of spiritual or economical leader that you can start conversations with?

 

[repiV]

So, what to do now? They have 'infiltrated' our working areas and are now pretty hard to remove.

That's the problem. The damage has already been done, and it may be too late to do anything much about it. We can lower the damage however, by being more demanding of new immigrants.

Maybe start a dialog between them? And don't tell me that there isn't a single one that can't speak English in there Since you seem pretty confident that they're a community within a community, surely there has to be some kind of spiritual or economical leader that you can start conversations with?

Oh, most of them can speak English. It's just that the people there are so overwhelmingly Indian, that English is rarely spoken in the area. Which makes me feel like a foreigner in my own country.
It's not a small area either - Wembley is enormous. No doubt large areas of East London are very similar, it being known for this problem...but I don't really go there.

 

[Beerdude26]

No seriously, can't your government or whoever start a dialog with that community? Happens here in Belgium all the time.

Government: "Hey what do you think of this proposal?"
Community: "We feel it could be improved by this and this"
Government: "K. And does it piss any of you guys off?"
Community: "Probably some retards, but we'll take care of them."
Government: "Lovely."

This is how it goes most of the time (Well, take out the "this and this should change" for a lot of dialogs). That community then really does make sure there aren't any OMGWTFMUSTDESTROYANYTHINGWESTERN people go on a massive Jihad spree when they hear of the news.

 

[repiV]

No seriously, can't your government or whoever start a dialog with that community? Happens here in Belgium all the time.

Government: "Hey what do you think of this proposal?"
Community: "We feel it could be improved by this and this"
Government: "K. And does it piss any of you guys off?"
Community: "Probably some retards, but we'll take care of them."
Government: "Lovely."

This is how it goes most of the time (Well, take out the "this and this should change" for a lot of dialogs). That community then really does make sure there aren't any OMGWTFMUSTDESTROYANYTHINGWESTERN people go on a massive Jihad spree when they hear of the news.

You're funny.

On a serious note, the attitude here is "live and let live". It's deeply ingrained into the English psyche, and we're paying the price for that virtue now.
The concept of societal harmony or any kind of collective experience of life is generally pretty alien to us - just live your life and let other people live theirs.
Previously, this worked fine. But we never faced a tidal wave of people who have nothing in common with us flooding into the country before, either.
At least, not for a thousand years.

 

[kirovman]

I think it's more of a "I'm scared of everyone else because the law is against me" kind of psyche.

Which goes for speaking out against anti-social behaviour too.

In a very controlled society, such as this, it will be the "under-the-table" miscreants which will thrive.

 

[repiV]

I think it's more of a "I'm scared of everyone else because the law is against me" kind of psyche.

Which goes for speaking out against anti-social behaviour too.

In a very controlled society, such as this, it will be the "under-the-table" miscreants which will thrive.

I see your point, but I think the "live and let live" one stands also.
Think about it - it's so fundamentally ingrained into our thinking that everyone else can live their lives however they want to that talk of assimilation is often labelled RACIST. We have little conception of the harmonious society, or what makes society tick. We're probably one the most individualistic people on the planet. Reflected in our enormous crime rates and frequent inability to discuss this problem in a sensible matter.

 

[Tyguy]

As long as im not paying for their direct tv subscriptions, I dont care. But the problem isnt with them, its with our bs border control and our hilariously bad ability to keep a constant goal towards this.

 

[Asknoone]

You can't have integration without controlled immigration...

Yes, which is pretty much what I said.

It's enough. Large swarthes of London just do not feel like home anymore. I live quite close to Wembley (and worked there for a while)...it's like another world. Every other shop is an Indian shop, you hardly ever see a white person (except in the office - which is rather like an alternate universe within an alternate universe) and English can rarely be heard.
Also, it's really, really, really dirty and rundown. And the Christmas lights they have up in the streets are all Hindu displays.
Is it such a bad thing to want to feel at home when you're at home?
If I go on holiday to India, I want to visit India, not England. And I also want to come home to England, not India, when I return.

You sound very much afraid of Islam, Muslims and the integration of society aspect. I've stopped going to London - the place is a shit hole, so I can't say whether or not you are exaggerating. It's your home; I'll take your word for it. Your justified in saying that you want to feel at home, and that you don't want other cultures dominating your area, but really, is it that bad? I for one don't see the problem in being surrounded by foreign people, or Muslims for that matter. Its London, its a big place, I think your going to feel a little swarmed but that isn't the reality of it surely.

The idea of somewhere being dirty does not boil down to it being the fault of foreigners. England is a very dirty place. I live in a small town, and I can quite honestly say it's a shithole. Not Crawley shit (Love you Lawyer), but shit. It's up to the local council to sort that out, and yes, the locals, but I think your being a little unfair there given the state of this country as a whole. What part of London isn't really dirty?

Not to say that Islamophobia is warranted, but I believe Muslims generally have themselves to blame for it. There's a reason we have Islamophobia, but not Hinduophobia, Buddhophobia, or similar for any other religion on the planet - despite most of them being more well-represented in British society.

Yes, there is a reason, and it's called the post 9/11 world. Muslims are feared, despised and the subject of huge criticism and abuse due to a series of terrorist attacks. That is not fair, in my humble opinion. I'm not going to judge someone on something others have done, which is exactly what most of the country is doing. You want to live your life but because of your religion and skin colour your being put against a group of west hating wacko's who's only goal in life is to bring destruction to the world in the name of Allah.

Have themselves to blame for it? I don't think so somehow.

 

[repiV]

Yes, which is pretty much what I said.



You sound very much afraid of Islam, Muslims and the integration of society aspect. I've stopped going to London - the place is a shit hole, so I can't say whether or not you are exaggerating. It's your home; I'll take your word for it. Your justified in saying that you want to feel at home, and that you don't want other cultures dominating your area, but really, is it that bad? I for one don't see the problem in being surrounded by foreign people, or Muslims for that matter. Its London, its a big place, I think your going to feel a little swarmed but that isn't the reality of it surely.

The idea of somewhere being dirty does not boil down to it being the fault of foreigners. England is a very dirty place. I live in a small town, and I can quite honestly say it's a shithole. Not Crawley shit (Love you Lawyer), but shit. It's up to the local council to sort that out, and yes, the locals, but I think your being a little unfair there given the state of this country as a whole. What part of London isn't really dirty?



Yes, there is a reason, and it's called the post 9/11 world. Muslims are feared, despised and the subject of huge criticism and abuse due to a series of terrorist attacks that left devastation in their wake. That is not fair, in my humble opinion. I'm not going to judge someone on something others have done, which is exactly what most of the country is doing. You want to live your life but because of your religion and skin colour your being put against a group of west hating wacko's who's only goal in life is to bring destruction to the world in the name of Allah.

Have themselves to blame for it? I don't think so somehow.

I'll address your post properly tomorrow, as I'm off to bed now. Just a couple of points, though. I've lived in this area for all my life, and it used to be really, really clean and upmarket. Now, the vast majority of it is a shithole. Incidentally, the deterioriation mirrors the level of immigration from third-world countries. My part of the borough is still very nice, and it's mostly populated by "middle class" whites, Jews and wealthy Indians and Sri Lankans.
Meanwhile, the area surrounding the town's mosque is utterly disgusting where once it was very nice. I lived just down the road from there just a few years ago, and it was lovely.
Call it what you want, but the correlation cannot be denied.

And I wasn't exaggerating about Wembley. Except for the small area surrounding the stadium (which is really rather nice), it's a Godforsaken and very alien place...

Muslims aren't just hated because of 9/11. Christians aren't feared and hated because of the IRA. It's their behaviour, hypocrisy and separateness - which has really been brought into the spotlight in recent years.

 

[Beerdude26]

Muslims aren't just hated because of 9/11. Christians aren't feared and hated because of the IRA. It's their behaviour, hypocrisy and separateness - which has really been brought into the spotlight in recent years.

But who is to be put to blame the most? Them, for coming over here, or us, for not paying attention enough and letting it escalate to this?

 

[repiV]

But who is to be put to blame the most? Them, for coming over here, or us, for not paying attention enough and letting it escalate to this?

That's an interesting question, and I look forward to answering it. Now though, I really must sleep.

 

[Beerdude26]

That's an interesting question, and I look forward to answering it. Now though, I really must sleep.

Lol same here gnight

 

[Asknoone]

And I wasn't exaggerating about Wembley. Except for the small area surrounding the stadium (which is really rather nice), it's a Godforsaken and very alien place...

Well, I don't live there, so I wasn't contradicting you. I'm not saying the whole of the hatred towards Muslims can be pinned on 9/11. Hell, of course it can't, there's a whole series of other factors as well.

 

[ComradeBadger]

Woah woah woah backup.

London is NOT a shithole. It's the best city I've ever been to. Birmingham on the other hand.. you can take that.

 

[Asknoone]

It certainly was when I went. Awful place. Hated it.

 

[zleppelin]

Here in the US we have a lot of Mexican and Hispanic immigrants, many of whom are illegal. Where do most of the current immigrants in the UK come from?

 

[Nemesis6]

Well, in Denmark we have quite a problem with integration. Racism is very prevalent here, towards blacks, Arabs, and of course Jews. The most common form of racism here is anti-Arab sentiment. The reason for this is, in my opinion, their lifestyles here. You see, in Denmark, the majority of immigrants are Iranian and Somali. Turkish, too. Mix in a bunch of Arabs whose fathers came here some 10 to 20 years ago. The young generation spawned by these immigrants can, at times, be truly appalling. Generally speaking, a lot of them have little if any respect for Danish culture or values. I think the phrase "****ing Dansker!" sums their attitude up pretty well. It's also what a large portion of them know us as.


And maturity doesn't necessarily doesn't come with age. For example, one would think that someone a bit over 19 years would be above the level of saying "Jew" to someone with a skullcap on the bus, and giving them the finger when they get off. This is the reason I am critical of immigration - The reason they run from their countries is because they know they live in crap. Problem is, they bring it with them. But now, THEY are not the ones suffering.


I guess... I'm against immigration when it comes to Arabs or more specifically, Muslims, I guess. I know that initially it sounds strange and racist, but... When you've seen the other side of immigration, a side that will turn on its host countries at the second they do something that is against the culture that they themselves are trying to force upon us through organizations like Hizb Ut Tahrir, Minhaj Ul Quran and the likes, the likes of which actually stand on street corners handing out leaflets to Arab/Middle-Eastern men urging them to kill Jews, you WILL agree with me. And to top it off, a statistic showed that the majority, or very close to 50% of Muslim immigrants flat out did not want to become integrated into Danish society.

 

[Ome_Vince]

We also have similar problems, I think that in most cases people blind-folded try to overlook social problems, in fear of racism.
If we polarize debates that way, then there can only be racists and leftists, and nothing in between, which i think is one of the bigger problems in Europe.
Open up the debates, let people complain.
As for immigration, i generally don't have a lot of problems with it, until it starts to seriously divide societies due to large changing demographics and no integration.

 

[delusional]

i dont have much of a problem with muslims especially since i only know like two,(one moved to the US from Pakistan two years ago) and they have pretty much integrated into our society, doesnt mean all muslims do.
Hispanics i do have a problem with though since i live in Southern California and i am pretty much a minority. and a lot of them dont even bother to learn english which forces me to learn the language, that i really hate. another thing they do is wave their mexican flags everywhere and they also play there damned salsa music very loud so i can hear it down the street. im not xenophobic or anything, but i really hate spanish and dont want to learn it since many hispanics wont learn english.

 

[Gunner]

Repiv: vote far right if you're unhappy.

 

[The Monkey]

In Sweden's case, we need to work harder and stronger to intigrate our immigrants, to make it easier for them to find jobs. They say Sweden has the world's best educated taxi drivers; many of our immigrants have a good education, but they get stuck in crappy jobs due to discrimination. We need the work force the immigrants possess, but we must learn how to take advantage of it better.

 

[kirovman]

How do you force people to integrate though?

I mean you can make them take citizenship exams and stuff but that's not everything.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink it.

You have to make being British an attractive thing. Currently, being British is seen as being drunk and aggressive and anti-social. Of course there's a lot of positive British traits too, but they're not being seen due to the negative factors.
Societies problems go further than just the immigrants.

I do agree that if you are coming here with the view that you hate British society, you shouldn't be allowed to be a part of it though. The only problem though is how do you examine this?

 

[Solaris]

I'm going to make two points here, which kind of contradict each other.


One:

Muslims are British, kebab Houses, Mosques, Asian people, Muslims, Chinese People, Asian Areas, White Areas, Churches, are all British things.

As far as I am concerned, as soon as someone becomes a citizen of this country, they become British. Whatever customs and culture they have becomes part of British culture. This white middle class suburban place you dream about is not Brittan, repriV. Britain is multiculturalism, it is partly a Muslim country. English is not the only language of these lands, whilst it is the most spoken, Urdu, is a British Language too, used by British people.

You have no right to say what customs or traditions other Britians should follow. No British citizen has anymore rights than another, and no British citizen is anymore British than another.

Two:

**** being British, ****ing patriotism, **** all that. We are all people of one world, I owe no allegiance to any country, I owe my allegiance to mankind.
If someone lives there lives differently to me, I will not tell them to change, as long as they don't infringe on my way of live and vice versa.


I'm sure the white, traditionalist, God Save the Queen brigade will disagree, but as they live in a democracy, all other participants in that democracy are equal, under society and under the law.

That is how it is, should be, and should remain.

 

[Nemesis6]

Ok, I have one question for you - What is your opinion of organizations like Al-Muhajiroun, MPAC, and all those Islamist groups you have over there? These guys are the same ones endorsing the RESPECT nutjobs and other utter loony leftist communists, yet people do not see their agenda, and they're allowed to come with such classic remarks as:

"You will take over USA! You will take over UK! You will take over Europe! You will defeat them all! You will get victory!! You will take over Egypt! We trust in Allah!"

Or the nice guy Abu Hamza - "...What makes Allah happy? Allah is HAPPY when a kuffar get killed."

Or another guy - "Islam’s superior than the Jews, than the Christian, than the Buddhists, than the Hindus. Who ever seeks any other thing apart for Islam will never be accepted. And the Christian or Kuffar, you may think to yourself. No, No, No, they are innocent. No Kuffar is innocent."

"Multicultural" Britain has allowed this in the name of tolerance and whatnot. That is ridiculous.

You have no allegiance to your country, neither do they. But their allegiance does not belong to mankind. It belongs Allah.

 

[zleppelin]

Hispanics i do have a problem with though since i live in Southern California and i am pretty much a minority. and a lot of them dont even bother to learn english which forces me to learn the language, that i really hate. another thing they do is wave their mexican flags everywhere and they also play there damned salsa music very loud so i can hear it down the street. im not xenophobic or anything, but i really hate spanish and dont want to learn it since many hispanics wont learn english.

And as we Americans know, "most" Hispanics wave their flags on your face, play loud salsa music and don't bother to learn English. And as Hispanics know, "most" White Americans live in trailer parkers, watch NASCAR, wear mullets, drive an old pick up truck and would love to appear on the Jerry Springer show.

**** being British, ****ing patriotism, **** all that. We are all people of one world, I owe no allegiance to any country, I owe my allegiance to mankind.

I owe my allegiance to the universe. I am not going to take sides against aliens just because they come from another planets. We are all part of the same universe, ok?

 

[Nemesis6]

Oh yeah, and another product of multiculture in Britain is videos such as thing - http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9083681522527526242&q=Sheikh+terra

A Jihadi music video called "Dirty Kuffar". Just watch it and tell me something hasn't gone wrong in British society.