Interesting.

[ComradeBadger]

I think someone else raised this point. I've never seen an agressive religious person on these forums, yet I see agressive atheists all the time, complaining how religion is bad (bullshit), causes war (bullshit), blinds people (bullshit), opposes science (bullshit). etc.

Remember one thing: religion has a handful of fanatics who unfortunatly gives relgion and religious people a bad name, however, atheism as a belief has a hell of a lot of fanatics.

 

[Sprafa]

ha!

You've been looking the wrong way.

Maybe in these forums, due to the inequality between samples (I'd say there are more atheu than religious members) there are more agressive atheus in number.

Atheism, is unfortunately, a catalyzer of unreasoning due to the apparent lack of guidance that the lack of an omnipresent, all-knowing, all-destining being provides.

That is no argument over anything. Look at how many wars were fought for religion, and look how the age of science & reasoning is bringing together the World today (the nuclear deterrent counts, as does the UN).

Religion isn't bad by essence. Many religions profess equality and universal peace. Unfortunately most of them are also totalitarian, that is, they profess their superiority over all other religions. That's the problem.

 

[ComradeBadger]

Sprafa I wasn't just talking about the forum, I was talking about life in general

And look at how many wars were fought for the sake of 'they've got our land' or 'They're a threat to us'. And name 1 purely religious war. (You can't include the crusades, as they were fought for political reasons, religion was merely the means of getting people to fight)

 

[The Monkey]

And look at how many wars were fought for the sake of 'they've got our land' or 'They're a threat to us'. And name 1 purely religious war. (You can't include the crusades, as they were fought for political reasons, religion was merely the means of getting people to fight)

The leaders started war for pure power-related purposes, yes, but the soldiers at the front fought about religion. So you can say, that no wars have been about religion, but you can also say that almost every single war until WWI has been about religion. Hope you get my point.

 

[Sprafa]

Sprafa I wasn't just talking about the forum, I was talking about life in general

And look at how many wars were fought for the sake of 'they've got our land' or 'They're a threat to us'. And name 1 purely religious war. (You can't include the crusades, as they were fought for political reasons, religion was merely the means of getting people to fight)

name 1 religious war = the modern Global Islamic Jihad agaisnt the foreign (namely Western [christian]) influence in Islamic countries

The secession of the Sunnis from the Al-Khalifah empire. The modern secession of the Islamic Chechens from Russia. The extermination of non-Christians during the early Byzantine Empire....

I could go on.

Your defense failed. Besides, no war is really solely one thing. So, you admit, the powerful use religion to blind the people about the true meanings of things, such as to impel them to fight.

 

[Absinthe]

Remember one thing: religion has a handful of fanatics who unfortunatly gives relgion and religious people a bad name, however, atheism as a belief has a hell of a lot of fanatics.

Get out much? I could easily swap the words "atheism" and "religion" in that sentence.

Any way, I'm not outright disagreeing with you. But you aren't really making a strong case when your reasoning consists of the word "bullshit" repeated four times.

 

[The Mullinator]

Religion isn't bad by nature, for all major religions that currently exist today if there was another species that was more "peaceful" than we are then it would not be a bad thing at all.

Its human beings that are the problem, we use religion to do bad things. Most athiests are just fed up with seeing so many people do that so they end up being extremelly bitter with those who do believe in religion.

As an athiest myself I think we should stop believing in any religion. Not because I think that any of it is bad, but because human beings simply can't be trusted to do anything good with it.

 

[ComradeBadger]

Heh, that is a fair point (both Absinthe and Sprafa)

Indeed, religious intolerence is a bad thing, and that's what is generally used to blind people, it's all down to the leaders, religion in those times was essentially propraganda, a means of control. However, this was by no means a bad thing, since the one thing a lot of people would listen to in those times was 'do this or you'll get smited'

Anyway, to elabourate on my first point:

Religion isn't bad: it gives hope to people, gives a set of rules by which to live, promotes healthy values (not all the time ref: homosexuality) and generally keeps a lot of people happy.

Religion doesn't cause war: sadly, people and the machinations of power cause war.

Religion doesn't blind people: just becuase people are religious, doesn't mean they are blind to your point of view.

Religion doesn't oppsee science: is it any co-incidence that a large number of scientists (mostly in the fields of physics and chemistry) are religious? Not really, to them, the more they find out about the world and the way it works, the more it seems to them not to have happened by chance.


I would like to point out at this point, I am a an agnostic in terms of religious beliefs and a borderline hedonist/situationalist when it comes to ethical thinking.

 

[ShadowFox]

I am, at least somewhat Atheistic in my beliefs, in that I don't believe there to be a god.

However the last thing I would ever want to do is push my beliefs on others. One of the greatest problems I have with organized religion is active persuit of recruits. The whole thing sickens me. I think you should join a religion if you believe it, not because you were told to believe it.

This is what bothers me about Atheism these days. I put on a scholarship tracking website that I was Atheist because it asked for my religous beliefs. Much to my shagrin I got a notice that there was a scholarship for "Atheist activism". I abhor this thought. In my opinion, atheism should be the very antithesis of this. There should be no organization. Hell, what are we organizing for? A lack of belief?

If atheists were being persecuted, I could see it, but we aren't. Thus the whole idea of "celebrating" and "promoting" atheism seems unnecessary and to me, rather disturbing.

Sorry for the rant, but I wanted to get that off my chest.

 

[ComradeBadger]

Thing is, the Christians I know... (this in real life) are (OH NOES) fundamentalists, and I have some quite fun arguements with them over hot topics. And they've never attempted to push their views on me.. yet, I see nearly everyone they meet deride their beliefs (I can't stand one of the members of this group, that's not becuase of her religion, it's becuase she's ****ing annoying :thumbs: ) without provocation.

It's almost as if atheism is the 'in' thing to be.

 

[Bait]

To say religion starts war is almost impossible. It can't be comprehended. For the most part, religions preach peace and compassion towards others.

Human interpretation of religion can cause wars. When one man sees a verse in one light, he may think it means "kill those who are against you". Another may see the verse saying "kill those who have done wrong to you."

The sad thing about wars, really, is that religion is almost always dragged into the conflict, even if it had no place in the beggining. It's a sad fact. Religion always finds its way into a war that could symbolize purely everything that religion could be against. When this happens, people get skewed perceptions of what the religion means. These skewed perceptions could incite more hatred, resulting in more fierce war.

Anyways, I am kind of shocked at the amount of atheist abroad. I'm not sure what pushes a man to become atheist, but I would very much like to know. Heh.... One thing I learned recently was that the easy type of people to turn to Islam are atheists. Why? Because to become a Muslim, you must recite "LaIllaha Ilallah Washadouan Muhammadin Rasool Allah" Roughly in english it means "There is no God but Allah, and I bear witness that Muhammad is His messenger".
For atheists, the first part is already fulfilled: "There is no God". The trick is getting them to believe the rest.

EDIT: The best way to .... "spread" religious beliefs is by practising them in your daily lives. Don't force them on others, but when people ask what you are doing, or why you are doing it, explain it to them. It's pretty shocking how interested people can be once they are part of a religous discution.

 

[bliink]

Its not so much that religion causes war, but that it can be a vehicle to promote/have war, eg, The Crusades were not religion based, but christians were told to fight by the Pope, thats an example of war being prolonged/promoted by Religion.
A similar thing happens with Iraqi insurgents, who in many cases believe or are told they are fighting for religious reasons, when in fact, its political.

The true problem with religion is that it can be used as leverage to shroud violence with a feeling of "its ok", or to entice people to fight.

But I do agree that "atheism" is currently the hip label to apply to oneself.

 

[Absinthe]

It's almost as if atheism is the 'in' thing to be.

Or maybe these damn whipper snappers aren't getting enough prayer in school. :angry:

 

[ComradeBadger]

Or maybe these damn whipper snappers aren't getting enough prayer in school. :angry:

Heh. The first school I went to was a Christian one, we had to sing prayers in the morning. I asked to be excused

And shadow, what is the propraganda of the Church.. our countries may differ greatly. (and also what the hell is a 'Gang Bank' )

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

I have never pushed my Catholic beliefs on anyone but have been, endlessly, told

"You are being mislead."
"You believe that? What an idiot."
"Well I'm not even going to debate with you because you're Christian" (Nothing regarding religion was even mentioned. It was a debate about Capitalism or something if I remember correctly)

I never have once done this to anybody else, athiest or of another religion. There is a lot of unprovoked hostility right off the bat from athiests. If you can have no belief, why can't I have one?

I can understand if an athiest was mad at an evangelist, but I have never seen a real one like the stereotype except on the T.V.. and that's like two people. I just wish they would stop trying to 'convert' (ironic) me to athiesm every time they find out what I believe.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

It's the whole gun cliche.
Religion doesn't kill people. People kill people.

But, like guns, the religion makes it a lot easier.

 

[ShadowFox]

I just wish they would stop trying to 'convert' (ironic) me to athiesm every time they find out what I believe.

This is the problem with Atheism these days. It shouldn't be about trying to convert people. It shouldn't be about anything.

That's why I often prefer to call myself non-religious rather than Atheist. Atheist implies activist.

 

[Absinthe]

I'm very curious as to where you people meet these atheists. Anti-God rally meetings?

I meet more Bible thumpers in a day than I meet atheist activists in a month.

 

[ComradeBadger]

I'm very curious as to where you people meet these atheists. Anti-God rally meetings?

I meet more Bible thumpers in a day than I meet atheist activists in a month.

No, just people around, people at work etc.

 

[burner69]

I think someone else raised this point. I've never seen an agressive religious person on these forums, yet I see agressive atheists all the time, complaining how religion is bad (bullshit), causes war (bullshit), blinds people (bullshit), opposes science (bullshit). etc.

Remember one thing: religion has a handful of fanatics who unfortunatly gives relgion and religious people a bad name, however, atheism as a belief has a hell of a lot of fanatics.

I must admit, to raise a point in the manner that you did you raised it badly.

As Absinthe says, just 'bulls*tting theories dosen't make them true, and could be interpretted as 'blindness' so to speak. I wasn't going to reply on this thread, but your other posts seemed less aggressive and open, so I will.

I'm an atheist (which perhaps explains why I didn't like your first post so much) but I don't see where you get this fanatic label from. I only raise the fact when asked, and certainly didn't do it to be cool. I did it because I felt hypocritical not to be.

I never go to church. I honestly DON'T BELIEVE <-(key point) that a greater being, who looked like a man, created the Earth in 6 days, 6 million years, whatever. I think Jesus may well have existed, and that he was a nice and no doubt influencial man, but certainly not the son of God. I never pray. I never read much of the bible expect for RE. I just never bought in to the religion. So I said to myself - I might as well be honest, I'm just not a Christian, I'm not anything.

I spent my years at high school writing on forms under religion: "Non believer" because I genuinely did not know the term Athiest existed.

Yet throughout this time, and today, despite not believing in heaven and hell, I was on the whole, good. I robbed Alton Towers of a teddy bear once, but in general I was good. Parents, police, and my consiocusness made it so. I just don't buy in to the idea that without religion morals would fall apart - that's crap. If that were true all true athiests would be idiots, they're not - or at least the few true ones I've met aren't.

I think the post about people, guns and religion sums up my view of it. It's all good, especially on individual basis, but on mass it can be very dangerous. The idea that people will believe without shadow of a doubt in something, just because an old book says so, seems odd to me. Especially when you look at the history of the book.

I'm not promoting athiesm (although now I'm starting to become agnostic, I think) but I genuinely believe a lot of people are athiests, they just put so little thought into they dub themselves the religion of their parents. So few people where I come from go to church, when asked about God they say "don't know" etc etc, I'm sorry but if I was a God I'd be bloody annoyed people were just conforming to say to believe in me, just because everyone else was.

Yet although I don't believe in religions, I accept that you can believe, if you truely believe, what you want. And guess what, this ability to be accepting towards other views came without any religious basis.

 

[slicktick]

I have never pushed my Catholic beliefs on anyone but have been, endlessly, told

"You are being mislead."
"You believe that? What an idiot."
"Well I'm not even going to debate with you because you're Christian" (Nothing regarding religion was even mentioned. It was a debate about Capitalism or something if I remember correctly)

I never have once done this to anybody else, athiest or of another religion. There is a lot of unprovoked hostility right off the bat from athiests. If you can have no belief, why can't I have one?

This is how I tend to feel about such things. You talk to some people and they just think you are an idiot for beleiving in God or something. They stereotype me just because I go to Church on sundays.

However this does happen with Religious nuts too, they will use the same kinds of things on people who dont believe. It is people not a certain religion they practice.

Another thing someone else said about Religion being used to get them to do things, I believe atheism could be used to do just that same thing. It is almost like a religion itself nowadays. I'm sure that if there was some major outcry for athesists to take up arms or something. Just as many atheists would come, as if the cry had come from a certain religion.

Hope that all makes sense, I typed it really fast.

 

[CptStern]

I think someone else raised this point. I've never seen an agressive religious person on these forums, yet I see agressive atheists all the time, complaining how religion is bad (bullshit), causes war (bullshit), blinds people (bullshit), opposes science (bullshit). etc.

Remember one thing: religion has a handful of fanatics who unfortunatly gives relgion and religious people a bad name, however, atheism as a belief has a hell of a lot of fanatics.

well ...mention gay marriage to a christian and he usually foams at the mouth ...seroiusly I had an argument with an older fella (in his 50's) who was screaming at the top of his lungs that gays shouldnt be allowed to get married have children etc ..the conversations started innocently enough but as soon as I brought up same-sex marriage, his demeanor changed drastically and he became very defensive ...he looked like he wanted to hit me ...all because he felt his opinion was the right one.

Now obviously he doesnt represent all religious people ..but I did find the more religious a person is, the more he/she's likely to be intolerant. ...but then again my parents are practicing catholics and same-sex marriage doesnt seem to bother them

 

[Death.Trap]

I'm Catholic. I don't try to push my beliefs on others. I've never had an atheist or anyone for that matter try to degrade me because of my belifes.



Oh, on a side note Burner....the earth wasn't created by someone who looked like a man. Not sure who told you that.

 

[Death.Trap]

well ...mention gay marriage to a christian and he usually foams at the mouth ...seroiusly I had an argument with an older fella (in his 50's) who was screaming at the top of his lungs that gays shouldnt be allowed to get married have children etc ..the conversations started innocently enough but as soon as I brought up same-sex marriage, his demeanor changed drastically and he became very defensive ...he looked like he wanted to hit me ...all because he felt his opinion was the right one.

Now obviously he doesnt represent all religious people ..but I did find the more religious a person is, the more he/she's likely to be intolerant. ...but then again my parents are practicing catholics and same-sex marriage doesnt seem to bother them

Practicing Catholics eh? They can call themselves that if they want. Do they support abortion? Just curious, because to be Catholic you are required to belive the teachings of the Church. So if they support abortions or gay marriage for that matter then they most definitely are not Catholic.


Now don't take that the wrong way, I'm not trying to demean your parents. But what I said is fact.

 

[Tr0n]

well ...mention gay marriage to some christians and he/she usually foams at the mouth ...seroiusly I had an argument with an older fella (in his 50's) who was screaming at the top of his lungs that gays shouldnt be allowed to get married have children etc ..the conversations started innocently enough but as soon as I brought up same-sex marriage, his demeanor changed drastically and he became very defensive ...he looked like he wanted to hit me ...all because he felt his opinion was the right one.

Now obviously he doesnt represent all religious people ..but I did find the more religious a person is, the more he/she's likely to be intolerant. ...but then again my parents are practicing catholics and same-sex marriage doesnt seem to bother them

Ummmm...let me correct your post some.

Don't generalize stern...you know better than that.

 

[burner69]

Oh, on a side note Burner....the earth wasn't created by someone who looked like a man. Not sure who told you that.

I believe he made us in his image

 

[Tr0n]

I believe he made us in his image

That can also mean made in the way it thinks or believes...not just what he/she/it looks like.

 

[Death.Trap]

I believe he made us in his image

Well he did :E , but not the visible part. What that phrase refers to is the fact that humans have souls. We are spiritual beings, just as God is a spritiual being.

 

[CptStern]

Ummmm...let me correct your post some.

Don't generalize stern...you know better than that.

how am I generalizing? I distinctly said that they're not all like that

ummm deathtrap ..dont know where you get your info from but catholisicm isnt so rigid ..all they ask is that you believe in god ...how you get there is your own choice.

 

[Tr0n]

how am I generalizing? I distinctly said that they're not all like that

ummm deathtrap ..dont know where you get your info from but catholisicm isnt so rigid ..all they ask is that you believe in god ...how you get there is your own choice.

Well you did at first...but re-corrected later in the post.Sorry.

 

[slicktick]

Well he did :E , but not the visible part. What that phrase refers to is the fact that humans have souls. We are spiritual beings, just as God is a spritiual being.

I do beleive that he made us in his actual physical image.

And let me use this as an example of what we are talking about, some people would have gone crazy on him, or I could have gone crazy, but the thing is to state your interpretation and beliefs rather than put down others. I really do feel that sometimes the vocal or fanatic part of society gives almost every group a bad name.

 

[Death.Trap]

ummm deathtrap ..dont know where you get your info from but catholisicm isnt so rigid ..all they ask is that you believe in god ...how you get there is your own choice.

Maybe that's what your parents think, but they've been misinformed.

They're are certain things that are optional to belive in, like the blessed mother appearing at Fatima. That kind of thing.



Now let's take Homosexuality for an example. Don't take my word that it's wrong, take God's.


Leviticus 19 Chapter 18

"I am the Lord.22 You shall not lie with a male as a woman; such a thing is an abomination.23 You shall not have carnal relations with an animal, defiling yourself with it; nor shall a woman set herself in front of an animal to mate with it; such things are abhorrent.24 Do not defile yourself by any of these things by which the nations whom I am driving out of your way have defiled themselves.25 Because their land has become defiled, I am punishing it for it's wickedness, by making it vomit out it's inhabitants.26 You, however, wether natives or resident aliens, must keep my statutes and decrees by forbidding all such abominations27 by which the previous inhabitants defiled the land;28 otherwise the land will vomit you out also for having defiled it, just as it vomited out the nations before you.29 Everyone who does any of these abominations shall be cut off from among his people.30 Heed my charge, then, not to defile yourselves by observing the abominable customs that have been observed before you. I, the Lord, am your God."



From the Catechism of the Catholic church.

"You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn the perish.

God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of cenception:abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes."



From the Catechism again.

" The Doctrinal Vaule of the Text

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved Just 25th last and the publication of which I today order by virture of Apostolic Authroity, is a statement of the Church's faith and catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic tradition, and the Church's Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faight and thus a valid and legitamite instrument for ecclesial communion. May it server the renewal to which the HOly Spirit ceaselessly calls the Church of God, the Body of Christ on her pilgrimage to the undiminished light of the Kingdom."


Catholicism is not as open ended as you, and your parents believe.

 

[burner69]

I'll have words with God about that gay thing. I still don't see how it's an abomination, and just shows the one of the bad things with religion - inability to accept certain people. No victim, no crime. Let gays get on with it God, don't defile the land please.

 

[CptStern]

Maybe that's what your parents think, but they've been misinformed.

They're are certain things that are optional to belive in, like the blessed mother appearing at Fatima. That kind of thing.



Now let's take Homosexuality for an example. Don't take my word that it's wrong, take God's.


Leviticus 19 Chapter 18

"I am the Lord.22 You shall not lie with a male as a woman; such a thing is an abomination.23 You shall not have carnal relations with an animal, defiling yourself with it; nor shall a woman set herself in front of an animal to mate with it; such things are abhorrent.24 Do not defile yourself by any of these things by which the nations whom I am driving out of your way have defiled themselves.25 Because their land has become defiled, I am punishing it for it's wickedness, by making it vomit out it's inhabitants.26 You, however, wether natives or resident aliens, must keep my statutes and decrees by forbidding all such abominations27 by which the previous inhabitants defiled the land;28 otherwise the land will vomit you out also for having defiled it, just as it vomited out the nations before you.29 Everyone who does any of these abominations shall be cut off from among his people.30 Heed my charge, then, not to defile yourselves by observing the abominable customs that have been observed before you. I, the Lord, am your God."



From the Catechism of the Catholic church.

"You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn the perish.

God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of cenception:abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes."



From the Catechism again.

" The Doctrinal Vaule of the Text

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved Just 25th last and the publication of which I today order by virture of Apostolic Authroity, is a statement of the Church's faith and catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic tradition, and the Church's Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faight and thus a valid and legitamite instrument for ecclesial communion. May it server the renewal to which the HOly Spirit ceaselessly calls the Church of God, the Body of Christ on her pilgrimage to the undiminished light of the Kingdom."


Catholicism is not as open ended as you, and your parents believe.

ah come on, who follows the bible to the letter any more? or even catholic doctrine? isnt it enough you have faith in god? do you honestly believe subscribing to a rigid set of doctrines is the only identifying characteristics of faith? this sort of mentality is one of the things that turned me off religion in the first place ...it's all a cult of exculsivity with each group claiming to be the one "true" religion

 

[bliink]

ah come on, who follows the bible to the letter any more? or even catholic doctrine? isnt it enough you have faith in god? do you honestly believe subscribing to a rigid set of doctrines is the only identifying characteristics of faith? this sort of mentality is one of the things that turned me off religion in the first place ...it's all a cult of exculsivity with each group claiming to be the one "true" religion

Indeed; in fact, what I've been told by a Bishop (I think he was..) is that with christianity, you cant go wrong as long as you keep to "love thy neighbour" and "love thyself"
... those are the laws of christian living that are supposed to come above all else. So when you find a 'christian' who hates homosexuals in "the name of god", I would be one to say they were flawed in their logic.

 

[Death.Trap]

A lot of people don't. In my opinion the Catholic Church in America is starting to fall apart. But following Catholic Doctrine is what makes you a true Roman Catholic. That's fact. All you have to do is read the Catholic Catechism to see that. The Catholic Faith isn't a fad, it wasn't established to give us something to do for the last 2 thousand years. It's a guide. It tells us what we need to do to get where we are meant to be.


"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink."

 

[Death.Trap]

Indeed; in fact, what I've been told by a Bishop (I think he was..) is that with christianity, you cant go wrong as long as you keep to "love thy neighbour" and "love thyself"
... those are the laws of christian living that are supposed to come above all else. So when you find a 'christian' who hates homosexuals in "the name of god", I would be one to say they were flawed in their logic.

I don't hate homosexuals. I have 2 gay cousins. What they do is sickening, but I don't hate them. And unfourtanetely it get's a bit more complicated than "love they neighbour" and "love thyself."

 

[CptStern]

"it's sickening"

why do you care? how does it affect you in any way, what they do? It's their choice, the christ-like thing to do would be to embrace them as equals

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

"it's sickening"

why do you care? how does it affect you in any way, what they do? It's there choice, the christ-like thing to do would be to embrace them as equals

He thinks to himself that it is immoral. Did he ostracize them for it? Not at all. Tolerance is not the same as approval.

 

[CptStern]

"whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers, you do to Me." (Mt. 25:40)


it doesnt matter what he thinks ..that's passing judgement ...a definate no-no in christ's eyes