Iraq - Biggest shithole on planet Earth?

[Mr-Fusion]

What a week in the biggest craphole of the universe.

Thirty people were killed, police said, as suspected Shi'ite militiamen rampaged for hours, untroubled by a curfew enforced in the capital by US and Iraqi forces after bombs killed 202 people in the Shi'ite stronghold of Sadr City.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,20818841-401,00.html

Revenge-seeking militiamen seized six Sunnis as they left Friday prayers and burned them alive with kerosene

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061124/ap_on_re_mi_ea/w

American involvement in World war 2 ended in a shorter period of time than the Iraq war. Think about it.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,20815587-5001620,00.html

Military incompetence and America go hand in hand. What do the pro-Iraq war, hurray for Freedom folks think about this catastrophe? Maybe you won't be so confident about illegally invading a country when your warmongering nation starts beating the drums again? Maybe? Maybe not.

I'm adding nothing new to the debate, i'm just angry at this worsening situation. October was the bloodiest month ever in Iraq.

Tony Blair has agreed with a question from an interviewer that it is a disaster.

Iraq a moral blunder: war hero
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,20816990-2,00.html

THE former SAS officer who devised and executed the Iraq war plan for Australia's special forces says that the nation's involvement has been a strategic and moral blunder.

Do you believe a country's desire for democracy, peace and freedom comes internally? Or do you believe it needs to be enforced externally by foreign powers? It has been forced onto Iraq and their citizens simply are not ready. They're still too concerned with their primitive tribal differences, too intent on murdering each other over petty religious differences. I don't think they were quite ready for democracy, peace and freedom.

 

[Ome_Vince]

burned alive :S?
Dam i'm glad i wasnt born there
I feel for the Iraqi's, and i hope their country gets stable soon They've been through enough and dont deserve this mess

 

[kirovman]

You can't tell a country they want a democracy... least not in a region where they are surrounded by authoritarian countries.

 

[mortiz]

The Iraqi police are ill equipped to deal with the situation, hell, the whole Iraqi government can't deal with it. I can see it all collapsing like a deck of cards as soon as coalition forces leave.

 

[DaMaN]

Iraq is in a far worse condition now than it was under US-installed Saddam. Conflict in the Middle East has been raging for centuries (at least since the time of the Crusades) and the majority of it has come from external nations trying to impose some ideology or another. If history has taught us anything, it should have taught us at least three things: occupations solve nothing, Middle Eastern countries are notoriously hard to conquer (that includes ideologically at the barrel of a gun), and that one should be wary of Trojan horses .

If troops pull out now, there will be toppling of the current Iraqi puppet government and it's infrastructure like the badly built deck of cards that it is. But they will rebuild. They will survive. If the occupation ends today, hundreds of people may die; else, those same hundreds of people will die.

The people of Iraq have managed to look after themselves for 4,000 years. Hell, the universities were built in the area of Baghdad. The US has 200 years experiance with governing. Iraqi's have 4,000. They have overthrown countless foreign occupations in the past. They will do it again.



Besides, there's an even bigger shithole than Iraq. The United Shitholes of America!!

 

[15357]

Desire for democracy, peace and freedom comes from within.

 

[Dynasty]

**** any of you who think Iraq is a shithole. Get your fat, westernised and brainwashed-stereotypical arses into the Middle East, and find out how much of a better place it is than the likes of the US and Europe.

Stop jumping to conclusions.

 

[Mr-Fusion]

Maybe i have to look deeper than the daily bombings, beheadings, immolations, disembowellings and amputations.....

Maybe it really is a beautiful and peaceful country, better than the US and Europe!!?

............................ ->emphasis!

 

[kirovman]

Well despite the negative news coming out of Iraq, I'm sure that it's a land of frolicking bunnies.

 

[repiV]

What beggars belief the most is where the blame gets pointed when shit like this happens.

Shi'ite terrorists kill hundreds. Response?

"OMG evil Americans are murdering Iraqis!"

What is it with these morons? They're even stupider than the Republican faithful.

Iraq is in a far worse condition now than it was under US-installed Saddam. Conflict in the Middle East has been raging for centuries (at least since the time of the Crusades) and the majority of it has come from external nations trying to impose some ideology or another. If history has taught us anything, it should have taught us at least three things: occupations solve nothing, Middle Eastern countries are notoriously hard to conquer (that includes ideologically at the barrel of a gun), and that one should be wary of Trojan horses .

If troops pull out now, there will be toppling of the current Iraqi puppet government and it's infrastructure like the badly built deck of cards that it is. But they will rebuild. They will survive. If the occupation ends today, hundreds of people may die; else, those same hundreds of people will die.

The people of Iraq have managed to look after themselves for 4,000 years. Hell, the universities were built in the area of Baghdad. The US has 200 years experiance with governing. Iraqi's have 4,000. They have overthrown countless foreign occupations in the past. They will do it again.

You really do like to worship the Middle East, don't you? Why don't you go and live there, instead of making yourself look a like fool by trying to convince people that what is in many ways the greatest nation in history has nothing on the aptly named shithole otherwise known as Iraq?
So tell me...why aren't you living in the Middle East yet?

Besides, there's an even bigger shithole than Iraq. The United Shitholes of America!!

That's one of the stupidest comments I've ever read in my life. Were you dropped on your head as a baby?

 

[repiV]

**** any of you who think Iraq is a shithole. Get your fat, westernised and brainwashed-stereotypical arses into the Middle East, and find out how much of a better place it is than the likes of the US and Europe.

Stop jumping to conclusions.

I have a better idea. Why don't YOU go and find out?

Before you leave however, I would welcome your comments on exactly how and why the Middle East is a much better place than the US and Europe.
When you return from your pilgrimage, I would like to hear your informed views on the subject.

 

[CptStern]

What beggars belief the most is where the blame gets pointed when shit like this happens.

Shi'ite terrorists kill hundreds. Response?

"OMG evil Americans are murdering Iraqis!"

What is it with these morons? They're even stupider than the Republican faithful.

oh here we go again with retarded comments from the peanut gallery

no invasion based on lies = 655,000 iraqis still alive

 

[repiV]

oh here we go again with retarded comments from the peanut gallery

no invasion based on lies = 655,000 iraqis still alive

So America is not only foremost, but entirely to blame when Iraqis kill other Iraqis? That makes about as much sense as "Israel is oppressing Palestine" and "capitalism is evil", and all the other tiresome talking points people like yourself love to throw out there.
You are the retard here.

 

[Dynasty]

I have a better idea. Why don't YOU go and find out?

Before you leave however, I would welcome your comments on exactly how and why the Middle East is a much better place than the US and Europe.
When you return from your pilgrimage, I would like to hear your informed views on the subject.

Considering i lived in the Middle East for 5 years, i think i would know why.

So go back to your little Bush shrine and let the grown-ups talk?
No offence.

 

[CptStern]

So America is not only foremost, but entirely to blame when Iraqis kill other Iraqis?

yup ..no invasion + occupation = no dead iraqis

That makes about as much sense as "Israel is oppressing Palestine" and "capitalism is evil", and all the other tiresome talking points people like yourself love to throw out there.
You are the retard here.

not my fault that for all your self-described "intelligence" you cant understand a basic concept like cause and effect

perhaps we should just blame the muslims as you're only a few posts away from doing so anyways

 

[repiV]

Considering i lived in the Middle East for 5 years, i think i would know why.

Yet you can't tell me what's so great about it?

So go back to your little Bush shrine and let the grown-ups talk?
No offence.

"Bush shrine"? You're an idiot. You think because I don't buy into the utter bullshit that America is the cause of all the world's problems no matter what America does, that the Middle East is a better place than the West (LOL), and that terrorists and freedom fighters are one and the same I must worship Bush?

So, what's so great about the Middle East?

 

[repiV]

yup ..no invasion + occupation = no dead iraqis

What twisted logic. Let's never punish criminals either - they were just poor misunderstood teenagers who were failed by the system and deserve our love and compassion.

not my fault that for all your self-described "intelligence" you cant understand a basic concept like cause and effect

Cause and effect? Yes, Iraqis blow shit up and other Iraqis die. That sounds strangely enough like cause and effect to me.

perhaps we should just blame the muslims as you're only a few posts away from doing so anyways

Or better yet, blame the Americans - right?
It's all America's fault that terrorists kill innocent people.
It's all America's fault that the Middle East is a cesspool of ignorance.
It's all America's fault that it's cold in Canada.

 

[CptStern]

What twisted logic. Let's never punish criminals either - they were just poor misunderstood teenagers who were failed by the system and deserve our love and compassion.

yes because that's exactly the same scenario :upstare:

Cause and effect? Yes, Iraqis blow shit up and other Iraqis die. That sounds strangely enough like cause and effect to me.

yet for some unfathomable reason you cant extend that logic to: no invasion = no 655,000 dead iraqis ....are you sure it was 140? cuz I'm finding that hard to believe

Or better yet, blame the Americans - right?
It's all America's fault that terrorists kill innocent people.
It's all America's fault that the Middle East is a cesspool of ignorance.
It's all America's fault that it's cold in Canada.

you could say whatever you like ..doesnt make it true ...you should probably familiarize yourself with these ..it will better help you understand why you're not making sense

 

[repiV]

yes because that's exactly the same scenario :upstare:

Well, yes, it is. You're absolving terrorists of their own responsibility in every case and just reiterating that it's all America's fault.
Are you by any chance the kind of weak-minded individual who can never accept responsibility for their own failings - but always have to blame someone or something else? It would explain the terminal victim complex with regards to your views on the Middle East.

yet for some unfathomable reason you cant extend that logic to: no invasion = no 655,000 dead iraqis ....are you sure it was 140? cuz I'm finding that hard to believe

No, obviously I can see that no invasion = no 655,000 dead Iraqis. That doesn't mean those deaths are solely or even primarily America's fault.
Are the founding fathers to blame for the failings of George W Bush, because without them the office of President of the United States would not exist?

you could say whatever you like ..doesnt make it true ...you should probably familiarize yourself with these ..it will better help you understand why you're not making sense

What about your fallacies? Like, "America is always to blame"?
What about your jumping on anything I say that MIGHT hint at anyone except the big bad West sharing some responsibility for things, yet completely ignoring fools who claim that Palestine is oppressed, that Iraq is a better place to live than the USA (which kind of invalidates his whole stupid argument about the US screwing up Iraq to begin with), that communism is great and so forth?
The things you DON'T comment on are more indicative of your warped beliefs than the things you do.

 

[CptStern]

Well, yes, it is. You're absolving terrorists of their own responsibility in every case and just reiterating that it's all America's fault.

directly or indirectly every single death is as a result of the invasion/occupation ..I dont understand why you cant understand this most basic of principles

Are you by any chance the kind of weak-minded individual who can never accept responsibility for their own failings - but always have to blame someone or something else? It would explain the terminal victim complex with regards to your views on the Middle East.

ok just for kicks we'll look at it from your convoluted POV:

Christianity is responsible for the deaths of 655,000 iraqis

see what I did there?

No, obviously I can see that no invasion = no 655,000 dead Iraqis. That doesn't mean those deaths are solely or even primarily America's fault.

directly or indirectly every single death in iraq is on america's hands

Are the founding fathers to blame for the failings of George W Bush, because without them the office of President of the United States would not exist?

hmm why not just blame adam and eve? it's just as credible as your rediculous scenario

What about your fallacies? Like, "America is always to blame"?

yadda yadda yadda this thread isnt about me

What about your jumping on anything I say that MIGHT hint at anyone except the big bad West sharing some responsibility for things,

hint? hint? you beat us over the head with your constant "muslims are teh evils!" schtick

yet completely ignoring fools who claim that Palestine is oppressed, that Iraq is a better place to live than the USA (which kind of invalidates his whole stupid argument about the US screwing up Iraq to begin with), that communism is great and so forth?

I'll add "unable to recognise an obvious joke when you see it" to the list of things you're lacking

The things you DON'T comment on are more indicative of your warped beliefs than the things you do.

you mean like how when faced with a difficult question/ideology you scurry away with your tail between your legs only to return weeks later after all the hubub has died down? pot meet kettle, kettle pot

 

[repiV]

directly or indirectly every single death is as a result of the invasion/occupation ..I dont understand why you cant understand this most basic of principles

Indirectly. Indirectly, everything is the result of something that came before. That proves absolutely nothing.

ok just for kicks we'll look at it from your convoluted POV:

Christianity is responsible for the deaths of 655,000 iraqis

see what I did there?

Yes...you bought hook line and sinker into the unsubstantiated word of a Palestinian politician without even so much as questioning it. How telling.

directly or indirectly every single death in iraq is on america's hands

Indirectly proves shit. Indirectly, someone else is unemployed because I have a job. Indirectly, someone else has less money because I have more. Am I supposed to take a walk of shame?

hmm why not just blame adam and eve? it's just as credible as your rediculous scenario





yadda yadda yadda this thread isnt about me

It isn't about me either - what's your point?

hint? hint? you beat us over the head with your constant "muslims are teh evils!" schtick

Really? Where have I ever said "Muslims are evil"?

I'll add "unable to recognise an obvious joke when you see it" to the list of things you're lacking

Sure.

you mean like how when faced with a difficult question/ideology you scurry away with your tail between your legs only to return weeks later after all the hubub has died down? pot meet kettle, kettle pot

I have a busy life, got a problem with that?
Sometimes responding to you is simply more effort than it's worth, because contrary to your belief I really don't give a shit.
There's only so much kooky, white man's shame complex, faux-intellectual left-wing bullshit I can take before I lose interest in giving up my free time to respond to it.

 

[Solaris]

If we didn't invade Iraq, 655,000+ people would still be alive right now.

 

[repiV]

If we didn't invade Iraq, 655,000+ people would still be alive right now.

This was never in question.
The difference is that the American leadership is guilty of gross misjudgement, incompetent strategising and a severe lack of foresight - NOT mass murder.

 

[Dynasty]

Dear god...repiV ive never heard someone so self-centered.

You're against the Middle East yet i bet you dont know what actually happened there. You're saying the Middle East is a shithole based on one country, which you probably didnt even know existed until the war started (over 50% of americans didnt - fact). You're not backing up your ranting with facts.

'It's all America's fault that terrorists kill innocent people.
It's all America's fault that the Middle East is a cesspool of ignorance.'

Hahah that made me laugh mate. 'Terrorists kill innocent people'..read the Quaran. 'Cesspool of ignorance'. That could be the worst statement i have EVER heard. Look up the meaning of ignorance before you use it mkay? Personally i have YET to meet ANY culture of people that are more friendly, caring and CONSIDERATE than the muslims. Can you visit some RANDOM person's house in the US, hell anywhere else for that matter, and be welcomed with open arms??? ***k no!
Travel into the mountains, seeing people that are seen as still living in the stone age, with no electricity, and have them INCIST you drink their coffee and eat their dates (fruit), even though they will probably never see you again in the course of their natural lives. THAT my friend, is hospitality and RESPECT to anyone they come across.

The Middle-Eastern cities such as Dubai have more money than most in the US, and are proving it with the expansion rate. And dont say that is bs, as i ***king lived there!!

So ***k your idiotic and anti-muslim comments, you're a typical racist pig as far as im concerned. Therefore PLEASE stop intoxicating these great forums with your jargon and unnecessary comments against your own human race.

 

[Dynasty]

Oh, and you say i cant say anything great about the Middle East.

I dont need to. Im British, have lived there, and think the world of it. No VAT. No Tax. Better quality food and products. Better quality of life.

Yes. Complete shithole. How could i have been so stupid...

 

[repiV]

Dear god...repiV ive never heard someone so self-centered.

You're against the Middle East yet i bet you dont know what actually happened there. You're saying the Middle East is a shithole based on one country, which you probably didnt even know existed until the war started (over 50% of americans didnt - fact). You're not backing up your ranting with facts.

No, I'm not saying it's a shithole based on one country. I'm saying it's a shithole because it is a shithole.
By the way, I live in London as you can clearly see. Did you assume I'm an American expat for no other reason than I'm not an anti-American, as much if not more of a racist position as being anti-Muslim? Yet one that is pretty widely shared here.

'It's all America's fault that terrorists kill innocent people.
It's all America's fault that the Middle East is a cesspool of ignorance.'

Hahah that made me laugh mate. 'Terrorists kill innocent people'..read the Quaran. 'Cesspool of ignorance'. That could be the worst statement i have EVER heard. Look up the meaning of ignorance before you use it mkay?

Yes, I've read the Qu'ran, thankyou. So, I need to look up the meaning of ignorance...a region that is defined by backwards ways, economic depression, theocracies and oppression - with the only stable democracy in the region no doubt being the only country there you dislike...yeah, sounds like a cesspool of ignorance to me.

Personally i have YET to meet ANY culture of people that are more friendly, caring and CONSIDERATE than the muslims. Can you visit some RANDOM person's house in the US, hell anywhere else for that matter, and be welcomed with open arms??? ***k no!

Why would I want to visit some random person's house and be welcomed with open arms? Why would I want unannounced strangers visiting my house? I'd rather be left alone, thanks.

Travel into the mountains, seeing people that are seen as still living in the stone age, with no electricity, and have them INCIST you drink their coffee and eat their dates (fruit), even though they will probably never see you again in the course of their natural lives. THAT my friend, is hospitality and RESPECT to anyone they come across.

So? How has any of this proven that the Middle East is not a shithole? Third world countries usually are bigger on personal hospitality than the West, that means nothing.
All those beheadings, stonings and executions aren't very respectful, mind.

The Middle-Eastern cities such as Dubai have more money than most in the US, and are proving it with the expansion rate. And dont say that is bs, as i ***king lived there!!

Duh. Dubai is prosperous because of the massive foreign investment. It's a city defined by its expats, and also the exception to the rule. What's your point?

So ***k your idiotic and anti-muslim comments, you're a typical racist pig as far as im concerned. Therefore PLEASE stop intoxicating these great forums with your jargon and unnecessary comments against your own human race.

I'm racist because I don't like the Middle East? How ****ing stupid are you?
Are you racist because you don't like America?

 

[repiV]

Oh, and you say i cant say anything great about the Middle East.

I dont need to. Im British, have lived there, and think the world of it. No VAT. No Tax. Better quality food and products. Better quality of life.

Yes. Complete shithole. How could i have been so stupid...

If you want to have any hope of convincing anyone that it's better than the West, then yes you will have to say something great about the Middle East.
In any case, your pampered expat experience in Dubai and hiking around villages bears no resemblance to the average person's life in the Middle East.

 

[Dynasty]

OK fine, as i cant be arsed anymore, have YOU been there? And dont say 'yes' to try and prove me wrong about anything.

 

[repiV]

OK fine, as i cant be arsed anymore, have YOU been there? And dont say 'yes' to try and prove me wrong about anything.

No, I haven't. You don't need to visit the Middle East to realise it's a shithole.
So far your entire basis for the Middle East being better than the West is...er...some old villagers insist you try their coffee, and you don't have to pay tax. Not very convincing at all.

 

[zleppelin]

I boycott this poll because it doesn't include the option that says US troops should withdraw from Iraq. If the US had not invaded that country it would NOT be the shithole that it is today. Way to **** up a country and its people, Mr Bush!

 

[Dynasty]

No, I haven't. You don't need to visit the Middle East to realise it's a shithole.
So far your entire basis for the Middle East being better than the West is...er...some old villagers insist you try their coffee, and you don't have to pay tax. Not very convincing at all.

You havent been there...

SO SHUT THE ***K UP as you have no facts for yourself, stop believing the media!

 

[repiV]

I boycott this poll because it doesn't include the option that says US troops should withdraw from Iraq. If the US had not invaded that country it would NOT be the shithole that it is today. Way to **** up a country, uncle sam!

Yeah - Iraq was a shining light unto the world, pioneering great feats in politics, science, economics and philosophy. Just about EVERYONE was dying for an Iraqi passport. Then the evil Americans got there...

 

[repiV]

You havent been there...

SO SHUT THE ***K UP as you have no facts for yourself, stop believing the media!

Stop believing the media?
The media tries its best to portray the Middle East in the most positive light possible. It's a part of that "white man's shame" thing that's infested our society of late.
You still haven't come up with ANYTHING at all that proves the Middle East to be superior to the West.
The one example you cited to show the Middle East as great is the most Westernised area of the region. Dubai is what it is purely because of Western influence and investment. Presumably you lived in Dubai for five years, where you enjoyed the benefits of Western corporate hospitality whilst getting to spend your time "respecting the local culture". So all you've done is proven my point.

 

[zleppelin]

Yeah - Iraq was a shining light unto the world, pioneering great feats in politics, science, economics and philosophy. Just about EVERYONE was dying for an Iraqi passport. Then the evil Americans got there...

It was another muslim third world country ruled by a petty dictator. Now it is a battlefield in which hundreds of thousands of civilians have died and many more will die.

 

[repiV]

It was another muslim third world country ruled by a petty dictator. Now it is a battlefield in which hundreds of thousands of civilians have died and many more will die.

I'd rather live in a battlefield than a totalitarian dictatorship.

 

[Dynasty]

repiV you're like talking to a teenager about not doing drugs. No matter what you say, they still won't change their mind.

But i still stand by my claim, if you havent been there, stop critisising it. You're basing your argument on facts you've seen on TV or have read in books, the web or in newspapers or even magazines. I can sit here all day listing things why its a better place, but unless youve been there, its about as futile as teaching you how to be reasonable.

 

[Dynasty]

I'd rather live in a battlefield than a totalitarian dictatorship.

Then get over there and get yourself shot?

 

[zleppelin]

I'd rather live in a battlefield than a totalitarian dictatorship.

Shut up

 

[repiV]

repiV you're like talking to a teenager about not doing drugs. No matter what you say, they still won't change their mind.

But i still stand by my claim, if you havent been there, stop critisising it. You're basing your argument on facts you've seen on TV or have read in books, the web or in newspapers or even magazines. I cant sit here all day listing things why its a better place, but unless youve been there, its about as futile as teaching you how to be reasonable.

How about you back up your claim instead of just saying "I know best! I do!"
You're basing your entire opinion of the Middle East off your sheltered existence in a small Western enclave, where the locals you encountered would be the most educated, progressive people in the entire region. Dubai is about as representative of the Middle East as Johannesburg is of Africa.
I've spoken to hundreds of servicemen who've spent time in various countries in the Middle East, and not one of them thought the region was anything but a total shithole.
Not that their word or yours should play a major role in forming my opinion, but if you want to play that game, I know who I'd rather believe.

 

[repiV]

Then get over there and get yourself shot?

Last time I checked, I don't live in a totalitarian dictatorship. So I don't really have much reason to downgrade to a battlefield, do I?