Iraqi Civilian Massacre: how it happened

[CptStern]

eyewitness account

Witnesses to the slaying of 24 Iraqi civilians by U.S. Marines in the western town of Haditha say the Americans shot men, women and children at close range in retaliation for the death of a Marine lance corporal in a roadside bombing

Aws Fahmi, a Haditha resident who said he watched and listened from his home as Marines went from house to house killing members of three families, recalled hearing his neighbor across the street, Younis Salim Khafif, plead in English for the lives of himself and his family. "I heard Younis speaking to the Americans, saying: 'I am a friend. I am good,' " Fahmi said. "But they killed him, and his wife and daughters."

The 24 Iraqi civilians slain Nov. 19 included children and the women who were trying to shield them, witnesses told a Washington Post special correspondent in Haditha this week and U.S. investigators said in Washington. The girls killed inside Khafif's house were ages 14, 10, 5, 3 and 1, according to death certificates.

the chain of events ...warning, some of it is disturbing

Bomb triggers attack

The attack was touched off when a roadside bomb struck a supply convoy of Kilo Company, 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment. The explosion killed Lance Cpl. Miguel Terrazas, 20, from El Paso, who was on his second tour in Iraq. Following in the footsteps of two Marine uncles and a Marine grandfather, Terrazas had planned to go to college when it was all done, his family said.

Insurgents planted the bomb off one of Haditha's main streets, putting it on a side road between two vacant lots to try to avoid killing, and further alienating, Haditha's civilians, residents said. It went off at 7:15 a.m. Terrazas was driving the Humvee. He died instantly.

"Everybody agrees that this was the triggering event. The question is: What happened afterward?" said Paul Hackett, an attorney for a Marine officer with a slight connection to the case.

The descriptions of events provided to the Post by witnesses in Haditha could not be independently verified, though their accounts of the number of casualties and their identities were corroborated by death certificates.

Raiding houses
In the first minutes after the shock of the blast, residents said, silence reigned on the street of walled courtyards, brick homes and tiny palm groves. Marines appeared stunned, or purposeful, as they moved around the burning Humvee, witnesses said.

Then one of the Marines took charge, shouting, said Fahmi, who was watching from his roof. Fahmi said he saw the shouting Marine direct other Marines into the house closest to the blast.

It was the home of Abdul Hamid Hassan Ali, 76. In the house with Ali and his 66-year-old wife, Khamisa Tuma Ali, were three middle-age men of their family, at least one daughter-in-law, and four children: 4-year-old Abdullah, 8-year-old Iman, 5-year-old Abdul Rahman and 2-month-old Asia.

Marines entered shooting, witnesses recalled. Most of the shots, in Ali's house and two others, were fired at such close range that they went through the bodies of the family members and plowed into walls or the floor, doctors at Haditha's hospital said.

A daughter-in-law, identified as Hibbah, escaped with Asia, survivors and neighbors said. Iman and Abdul Rahman were shot but survived. Four-year-old Abdullah, Ali and the rest died.

Ali took nine rounds in the chest and abdomen, leaving his intestines spilling out of the exit wounds in his back, according to his death certificate.

The Marines moved to the house next door, Fahmi said.

Inside were 43-year-old Khafif, 41-year-old Aeda Yasin Ahmed, an 8-year-old son, five young daughters and a 1-year-old girl staying with the family, according to death certificates and neighbors.

The Marines shot them at close range and hurled grenades into the kitchen and bathroom, survivors and neighbors said later. Khafif's pleas could be heard across the neighborhood. Four of the girls died screaming.



4 brothers
Moving to the third house in the row, Marines burst in on four brothers: Marwan, Qahtan, Chasib and Jamal Ahmed. Neighbors said the Marines killed the four together.

Marine officials said later that one of the brothers had the only gun found among the three families, although there has been no known allegation that the weapon was fired.



The final victims of the day happened upon the scene inadvertently, witnesses said. Four male university students - Khalid Ayada al-Zawi, Wajdi Ayada al-Zawi, Mohammed Battal Mahmoud and Akram Hamid Flayeh - had left the Technical Institute in Saqlawiyah for the weekend to stay with one of their families on the street, said Fahmi, a friend of the young men.

A Haditha taxi driver, Ahmed Khidher, was bringing them home, Fahmi said.

The final killings
According to Fahmi, the young men and their driver turned onto the street and saw the wrecked Humvee and the Marines. Khidher threw the car into reverse, trying to back away at full speed, Fahmi said, and the Marines opened fire from about 30 yards away, killing the men inside the taxi.



At some point on Nov. 19, Marines in an armored convoy arrived at Haditha's hospital. They placed the bodies of the victims in the garden of the hospital and left without explanation, said Mohammed al-Hadithi, one of the hospital officials who helped carry the bodies inside.

 

[99.vikram]

If it's all true, then this is shameful for America and the Marine corps.

 

[sadman]

sounds like vietnam.
its things like this that makes what they are trying to do all the more impossible. but thats what happens when you have a bunch of kids trying to do a job that exposes you to so much death and brutality.

i think they should be tried and punished accordingly there's no excuse for this kind of conduct

dont get me wrong i have great respect for the u.s. military but things like this shame them all.

 

[sinkoman]

sounds like vietnam.
its things like this that makes what they are trying to do all the more impossible. but thats what happens when you have a bunch of kids trying to do a job that exposes you to so much death and brutality.

i think they should be tried and punished accordingly there's no excuse for this kind of conduct

The question is though, what are they trying to do?

I'd say this was over-anti-bushish if it weren't for the witness accounts.

Poor bastards ;(

I pray, for the Iraqis, that all this nonshens is over soon.

 

[sadman]

regardless of what bush's agenda is most of the us troops are there to try and help the iraqi citizens.
i feel for both the citizens and the troops because i dont think anyone can help them until iraq takes over its own defence and even after that who's to say things wont go back to the way they were when saddam was in power.

 

[_Z_Ryuken]

Genocide?

 

[Top Secret]

Not that I'm letting the Marines off of the hook, but the real evil here is the guy who put the roadside bomb in a city.

 

[sinkoman]

regardless of what bush's agenda is most of the us troops are there to try and help the iraqi citizens.
i feel for both the citizens and the troops because i dont think anyone can help them until iraq takes over its own defence and even after that who's to say things wont go back to the way they were when saddam was in power.

How so?

By shooting up a village full of Iraqis?

I don't mean to turn this into a "yes war no war" debate, but really, why the f*ck are we in Iraq? It seems they've got their defences down just fine, what with the millions of millitia men screaming "Get the **** out of our country!".

 

[Ludah]

Not that I'm letting the Marines off of the hook, but the real evil here is the guy who put the roadside bomb in a city.

I won't pretend to know what the "real" evil is in this situation. They're both horrid acts.

But, at risk of sounding antiquated, two wrongs don't make a right. And in the end, the bomb killed a military combatant and the soldiers killed numerous civilians.

 

[99.vikram]

The bomber had the same intent as the soldiers - to kill for revenge, only he used a bomb to do his job.

 

[15357]

masscres of civilians by US troops ain't new:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/05/29/skorea.us.ap/index.html?section=cnn_world

 

[sinkoman]

The bomber had the same intent as the soldiers - to kill for revenge, only he used a bomb to do his job.

And he killed fair game.

Civilians are innocent. Soldiers are not.

 

[15357]

And he killed fair game.

Civilians are innocent. Soldiers are not.

Um.... yes they are.

 

[Ludah]

It's not a question of innocence.

It's that armed soldiers are for military combat. Civilians are not. Civilians, by and large, want absolutely nothing to do with such conflict and pose no threat. Killing them is absolutely out of the question.

 

[sinkoman]

It's not a question of innocence.

It's that armed soldiers are for military combat. Civilians are not. Civilians, by and large, want absolutely nothing to do with such conflict and pose no threat. Killing them is absolutely out of the question.

Precisely.

It's like shooting somebody in the stands at a paintball game.

 

[diluted]

Um.... yes they are.

So you don't see any difference between an occupying military force and the civilians of a country that they invaded?

 

[Gunner]

masscres of civilians by US troops ain't new:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/05/29/skorea.us.ap/index.html?section=cnn_world

Yeah but that's okay, we all know asians have no souls. This is different.

 

[Solaris]

This is just horrific.

Not that I'm letting the Marines off of the hook, but the real evil here is the guy who put the roadside bomb in a city.

He was practically a soldier, fighting an occupying force. An occuping force which breaks into familly homes and shoots dead 2 dozen people including men, women and children, all of whom are unarmed. The soldiers has US guns and US flags on their arms, they are fair game. They are in a war, the soldiers are fighting on the side of imperialism and greed, if they don't want to get blown up by people defending their famillys then they shouldn't be there.

Um.... yes they are.

Soldiers are not innocent, not at all. A person is responcable for his actions, it being your job does not make one any less responcable.

 

[Laivasse]

Solaris is right. As a soldier your job is, essentially, to kill people who your government tells you to. Sure, soldiers do lots of other stuff, but when we compare the armed forces of different countries, we all know that we are talking about those countries' killing power. You can't do a soldier's job without accepting that your own life (and those of your comrades) may be targeted - not joining the army is a simple way to avoid this. Therefore the death of a single unprepared, uninvolved non-combatant is of an entirely different order to the death of a single soldier. The deliberate killing of 24 civilians eclipses a soldier's death by a long way. And this is only one of the cases that has come to light - how much stuff is slipping under the radar?

At the same time, I also can't help thinking of all the families killed in bombing - they never get this kind of reaction. Just because their death falls instantly from the skies and it's impossible to count the corpses afterwards, their deaths are just met with a kind of bland acceptance, 'well, thass warfare innit?' The soldiers who killed these 24 civilians are (hopefully) going to meet the full force of the legal system, but that's only because they did what they did at close quarters and are identifiable as the culprits. There are many more Iraqis dying without us having such easy scapegoats for our anger, and you can bet this is not an isolated incident.

 

[Solaris]

At the same time, I also can't help thinking of all the families killed in bombing - they never get this kind of reaction. Just because their death falls instantly from the skies and it's impossible to count the corpses afterwards, their deaths are just met with a kind of bland acceptance, 'well, thass warfare innit?' The soldiers who killed these 24 civilians are (hopefully) going to meet the full force of the legal system, but that's only because they did what they did at close quarters and are identifiable as the culprits. There are many more Iraqis dying without us having such easy scapegoats for our anger, and you can bet this is not an isolated incident.

QFT. How many Iraqis we're killed just becuase of bombings in the invasion, I'm pretty sure it's in the thousands.

 

[CptStern]

Not that I'm letting the Marines off of the hook, but the real evil here is the guy who put the roadside bomb in a city.

are you shitting me? the ONLY evil here is that innocent civilians, women and children, babies were butchered by people who saw them as less than human. How can you ignore their deaths?

the soldier who was killed knew the risks and died in the line of duty ..the one year old baby didnt have a chance to know anything, nor did the 3 yr old girl, the 10 year old girl, the 5 year old boy, the 4 year old boy, the 8 year old boy, the 2 month old girl etc etc etc

4 university students just like any one of you were also gunned down, their only crime was being ina taxi at the wrong place and time





if convicted they face the death penalty, I'm not for capital punishment but in the interest of US security ...... I'll leave it unsaid

I'd much rather they serve consecutive life sentences for each murder ..ensure they'll die behind concrete walls and have a lifetime to reflect on the lives they took away

 

[CptStern]

it's a sad comment on the state of mind of people within these forums when a topic about the Dixie chicks has more views/replies than a topic about soldiers massacring women and children

 

[VictimOfScience]

Yeah, I'm sure the death certificate said that the shots "left his intestines spilling out the exit wounds in his back", etc. Who the hell is writing these things?

If all of this is true, then it should be a pretty cut and dry case in terms of bringing these guys to justice. Plenty of eyewitness accounts, names and ranks and such. Hopefully this will be handled swiftly so as to send a message that the Iraquis that we were indeed at fault but have gotten the culprits and punished them accordingly (hopefully).

Man, war is hell.

 

[Solaris]

Yeah, I'm sure the death certificate said that the shots "left his intestines spilling out the exit wounds in his back", etc. Who the hell is writing these things?

Major international news organisations?

If all of this is true, then it should be a pretty cut and dry case in terms of bringing these guys to justice. Plenty of eyewitness accounts, names and ranks and such. Hopefully this will be handled swiftly so as to send a message that the Iraquis that we were indeed at fault but have gotten the culprits and punished them accordingly (hopefully).

What if it's not an isolated incident?

 

[CptStern]

Yeah, I'm sure the death certificate said that the shots "left his intestines spilling out the exit wounds in his back", etc. Who the hell is writing these things?

translation of what was probably written in iraqi

If all of this is true, then it should be a pretty cut and dry case in terms of bringing these guys to justice. Plenty of eyewitness accounts, names and ranks and such. Hopefully this will be handled swiftly so as to send a message that the Iraquis that we were indeed at fault but have gotten the culprits and punished them accordingly (hopefully).

Man, war is hell.

it's true ..congress is preparing a report (according to news sources, should be released soon) and advanced previews say the evidence is pretty ironclad


no offense but I dont want to hear "war is hell" ..it implies that it is understandable because it is war, and I cant for a minute believe that ..nothing could ever justify killing babies ..if so they could use the justification that the victems of 9/11 were regretful but "war is hell" ....it's just makes the victem's deaths seem meaningless.

if that wasnt what you were implying I apologise ...it's just that I'm tired of that sentiment because it seems to be the ending point of every single media report I've seen from american sources about this story in the last few days ... "this is horrible but we must remember the brave soldiers are under stress"

I dont know why this has affected me more than it should (I've read dozens of accounts of virtually the same scenarios over and over) ...I guess it's the fact that some of the victems were babies less than a year old

 

[VictimOfScience]

Major international news organisations?

It does say "according to the death certificates" and that certainly makes it sound like the coroner or whomever wrote them did so with a bit more flair than your average medical professional.

What if it's not an isolated incident?

Not really the point of this thread, but maybe (hopefully) there'll be a larger investigation if more and more incidents keep popping up, especially more incidents with so much apparent evidence.

no offense but I dont want to hear "war is hell" ..it implies that it is understandable because it is war, and I cant for a minute believe that ..nothing could ever justify killing babies ..if so they could use the justification that the victems of 9/11 were regretful but "war is hell" ....it's just makes the victem's deaths seem meaningless.

if that wasnt what you were implying I apologise ...it's just that I'm tired of that sentiment because it seems to be the ending point of every single media report I've seen from american sources about this story in the last few days ... "this is horrible but we must remember the brave soldiers are under stress"

None taken. I was merely expressing the feelings I get when I read these things too. It really seems to be that in some cases that the worst evil you can imagine is being perpetrated right here on earth, though more often than not in a theatre of war. Its not an excuse, but a frightening reality.

 

[15357]

So you don't see any difference between an occupying military force and the civilians of a country that they invaded?

No, sinkoman said that the soldiers are not innocent. There are plenty of innocent soldiers out there however (as in, not breaking Geneva/Civil code of con.)

Soldiers are not innocent, not at all. A person is responcable for his actions, it being your job does not make one any less responcable.

Ok, so, if I went and joined the military I'd suddenly be guilty?

And by your logic, the Combat Police officers upholding the law aren't innocent of crimes? I think I lost you here somewhere.

 

[Solaris]

Ok, so, if I went and joined the military I'd suddenly be guilty?

Depends.
If you joined the UK armed forces I would hold you responcable for taking part in the illegal occupation of a nation. I do however not hold much authority.

 

[15357]

Depends.
If you joined the UK armed forces I would hold you responcable for taking part in the illegal occupation of a nation. I do however not hold much authority.

But what about the other nations? US, UK, Japan, S. Korea, ect...

But anyway, when is a war legal (or illegal)? What 'law' has hindered nations from declaring war? The UN is too weak to uphold their own laws. Therefore due to the lack of authority to uphold the law, it is invalid.


Occupation is a terrible thing, like the Japanese and German occupations of the 1930s ~ 1945. But in this case, US troops are helping to rebuild the goverment, the nation itself, and bring security to the whole.

 

[Solaris]

US troops are helping to rebuild the goverment, the nation itself, and bring security to the whole.

They murdered 24 civillians inculding babies.

 

[A True Canadian]

:angry: :angry: :flame: :angry: :angry:

Reading that news post struck a nerve in me. How the hell can people be so cold??!! Shooting ****ing kids at point blank range!!! Children who aren't even old enough to contemplate what is happening! This is the type of stupid **** that is making the collective world hate America more and more. For all the good that the US tries to accomplish, there are always some stupid morons ****ing it up with idiotic **** like this.

This is no better than those heartless bastards who held the Russian elementry school hostage two September's ago. People who take their anger out on children should not be privy to the freedoms and privileges that their society embraces.

These soldiers are supposed to be representing (what they consider to be) the greatest nation in the world. I would argue that acts like these show just how disrespectful of America these particular soldiers are. How ignorante and spineless do you have to be to label infant children as terrorists, and subsequently murder them for it?

This is like the teacher who gets a bad performance review and takes it out on the class by failing all the students. It's unfair, cruel, and totally irresponsible. These soldiers should get what's coming to them. This type of behavior has to stop. People like this need to seriously smarten the **** up!!



EDIT: Wow, I don't think I've ever been this angry on this board. I need to go calm down! :O

 

[Ludah]

Solaris, as much as we equally deplore this act, I do take issue with something.

Your wording just strikes me as if you're attempting to spread accountability of this across all coalition troops. Not every soldier is a baby-killing, desensitized, amoral barbarian. And when you accuse them of taking part in an illegal war, also keep in mind that they were ordered into it. For better or for worse, you cannot just say "sod it" and walk away when a particular conflict isn't to your liking. There are many soldiers that want to be elsewhere and wish to have never taken part in it, but that's the breaks when you're subject to the chain of command. True, that was a risk taken when they signed up, but it's not like anybody was totally gunning for the Iraq War.

Again, perhaps I'm reading you wrong. But your posts sound so venomous against military personnel in general.

 

[CptStern]

when it comes to iraq there maybe something to it

British soldiers currently in Iraq said they were anxious to distance themselves from the Americans but that Iraqis did seem able to make a distinction. One private, who did not wish to be named, said: 'We are given an education: the Americans get shown how to use a gun. The Iraqis know the difference.'

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1784622,00.html

 

[baxter]

I have reserved my comments of this story and looked into it.
There can be no debate here, just condemnation of this wicked and inhuman act.
It is indefensible, unjustifiable, for it is cold blooded and heartless murder.

I do agree with Ludah with regard coalition troops in general and hope that perpetrators of this dreadful act are brought to justice speedily and swiftly.

To butcher any human being in such a callous and cold way is unspeakably evil. To do so to perfectly innocent children who posed no threat whatsoever goes way beyond any words I could possibly write to condemn such actions.

 

[Solaris]

Solaris, as much as we equally deplore this act, I do take issue with something.

Your wording just strikes me as if you're attempting to spread accountability of this across all coalition troops. Not every soldier is a baby-killing, desensitized, amoral barbarian. And when you accuse them of taking part in an illegal war, also keep in mind that they were ordered into it. For better or for worse, you cannot just say "sod it" and walk away when a particular conflict isn't to your liking. There are many soldiers that want to be elsewhere and wish to have never taken part in it, but that's the breaks when you're subject to the chain of command. True, that was a risk taken when they signed up, but it's not like anybody was totally gunning for the Iraq War.

Again, perhaps I'm reading you wrong. But your posts sound so venomous against military personnel in general.

Yes they can say sod it and walk away.
They would however go to jail, it's not nice but it's the moral thing to do.

 

[15357]

Yes they can say sod it and walk away.
They would however go to jail, it's not nice but it's the moral thing to do.

Moral? Uh, dessertion has never been moral.

 

[Solaris]

Moral? Uh, dessertion has never been moral.

Cummon, drop this persona please, it's tiring.

You really think it would be immoral to desert if you're ordered to hypothetically speaking, shoot a thousand civillians dead?

 

[Sulkdodds]

Jesus christ.

Again, perhaps I'm reading you wrong. But your posts sound so venomous against military personnel in general.

Nope, you're reading him correct.

 

[15357]

Cummon, drop this persona please, it's tiring.

You really think it would be immoral to desert if you're ordered to hypothetically speaking, shoot a thousand civillians dead?

Well, hypothetically yes. But it won't be immoral to disobey that order.


EDIT: Why I think dessertion is immoral no matter what:

#1 You take an oath to defend your country, to never betray it, to protect and serve it until your death. Breaking that oath by desserting would be immoral.

#2 The reason why dessertion is the most heavily punished crime in all military forces.

I say again. The disobeying of that particular order is not immoral. But dessertion is.

 

[Yuri]

it's a sad comment on the state of mind of people within these forums when a topic about the Dixie chicks has more views/replies than a topic about soldiers massacring women and children

I'm sorry, Stern, but that is a completely ridiculous comment. Completely ridiculous. Some people do not enjoy hearing about slaughter that they have nothing to do with. Some people would rather discuss more lighthearted subjects. That is not sad. The fact that you think that is sad is what is pathetic. You cannot judge people on what they prefer to discuss on an internet gaming forum. :rolling:

It is pretty damn f*cked up that those soldiers killed so many innocent people, but I am assuming that they will convicted for their crimes and will pay as anyone else would pay. While the entirety of the US government shouldn't be held responsible for the actions of a few marines in the occupation of a country, it still reflects badly upon it. And it should.

And Solaris, I hope that someday your self righteous ass is personally forced into the military, with a choice to stay or spend many years in prison. Then you could all prove us wrong by doing what's right. :angel: