Iraqi Civilian Massacre: how it happened

[Solaris]

Well, hypothetically yes. But it won't be immoral to disobey that order.

What? It would be immoral to obey it, and immoral to disobey?

And Solaris, I hope that someday your self righteous ass is personally forced into the military, with a choice to stay or spend many years in prison. Then you could all prove us wrong by doing what's right

The words 'forced into' are key there. I wouldn't know what I'd do in that case.

Edit:
Numbers I just read your edit. Cummon, drop the blind patriotism please, you don't really believe what you're saying, I know you don't.

 

[15357]

EDIT: Why I think dessertion is immoral no matter what:

#1 You take an oath to defend your country, to never betray it, to protect and serve it until your death. Breaking that oath by desserting would be immoral.

#2 The reason why dessertion is the most heavily punished crime in all military forces.

I say again. The disobeying of that particular order is not immoral. But dessertion is.

......

 

[Solaris]

......

You edited after I posted.

 

[Ludah]

Cummon, drop this persona please, it's tiring.

You really think it would be immoral to desert if you're ordered to hypothetically speaking, shoot a thousand civillians dead?

And there's the problem, right there.

You automatically assume that every coalition troop wants to kill civilians, or is at least complicit with it.

That's why your view is so troubling. Contrary to what you may think, not every soldier is a blood-thirsting monster and there are many over there who are genuinely trying to achieve some good. Also keep in mind that they were soldiers ordered under false/misleading intelligence. When you've already toppled a government and destroyed a countries infrastructure, you can't just pack your bag and say "lol guys im actually not up for this any more". That is such an extreme disrespect not only to your fellow troops, but to the very inhabitants of the land you invaded. Iraq is a burden they have to bear, regardless of wether or not they like it.

That's the real world. Not your naive one. And as much as a mistake I think this war is, I have to thank God that soldiers don't just get up and walk away. That would set such a bad up precedent that could pretty much encourage desertion during a time when America actually has to defend itself.

 

[15357]

You edited after I posted.

ah...

 

[Solaris]

And there's the problem, right there.

You automatically assume that every coalition troop wants to kill civilians, or is at least complicit with it.

You're viewing that in completely the wrong context.
I was posing an extreme hypothetical situation in order to challenge numbers beliefs. Don't take it out of context, I never assume that, and the situation is based against that situation. The fact that numbers as a troop would not want to kill civillians.

That's why your view is so troubling.

Becuase of your fallacy?

Contrary to what you may think, not every soldier is a blood-thirsting monster and there are many over there who are genuinely trying to achieve some good.

Show me where I state that I don't believe that.

Also keep in mind that they were soldiers ordered under false/misleading intelligence. When you've already toppled a government and destroyed a countries infrastructure, you can't just pack your bag and say "lol guys im actually not up for this any more". That is such an extreme disrespect not only to your fellow troops, but to the very inhabitants of the land you invaded. Iraq is a burden they have to bear, regardless of wether or not they like it.

They're not doing any good by staying. Just look at the first post of this thread for an example.

That's the real world. Not your naive one. And as much as a mistake I think this war is, I have to thank God that soldiers don't just get up and walk away. That would set such a bad up precedent that could pretty much encourage desertion during a time when America actually has to defend itself.

You'd rather your soldiers blindly followed orders that involved the killing of 30,000 people.

 

[CptStern]

And there's the problem, right there.

You automatically assume that every coalition troop wants to kill civilians, or is at least complicit with it.

That's why your view is so troubling. Contrary to what you may think, not every soldier is a blood-thirsting monster and there are many over there who are genuinely trying to achieve some good. Also keep in mind that they were soldiers ordered under false/misleading intelligence. When you've already toppled a government and destroyed a countries infrastructure, you can't just pack your bag and say "lol guys im actually not up for this any more". That is such an extreme disrespect not only to your fellow troops, but to the very inhabitants of the land you invaded. Iraq is a burden they have to bear, regardless of wether or not they like it.

That's the real world. Not your naive one. And as much as a mistake I think this war is, I have to thank God that soldiers don't just get up and walk away. That would set such a bad up precedent that could pretty much encourage desertion during a time when America actually has to defend itself.

in a poll from jan 2006 of US soldiers in iraq almost 85% said they thought saddam was behind 9/11 ....85%. You'd think someone would set them straight


this incident was not an isolated one ...in fact I stumbled onto it while researching another massacre 2 months ago


could we please stay on topic?

 

[15357]

Whats more to say except that it was a horrible atrocity?

 

[Yuri]

The words 'forced into' are key there. I wouldn't know what I'd do in that case.

Then what of the hundreds of Americans who are forced into the military because it is the only option they have for a good education and/or a decent life?

Whats more to say except that it was a horrible atrocity?

Yeah, what? I refuse to believe people who post "BUSH SUX!" in this thread are superior and more intelligent than those who post in Dixie Chix threads. I'm not completely sure what "Staying on topic" here is meant to mean.

 

[Ludah]

Solaris, you assume that all 30,000 of those deaths are from US hands. And by all means, if I'm reading you wrong, then you need to refine yourselves in terms of tone and diction. Because every post of yours regarding Iraq reeks of "US = evil! Insurgency = Noble!"

Stern, if soldiers truly think that, then the problem is with the information being fed to them. Not the soldiers themselves. And I never said this was an isolated incident. Thinking such a thing would be foolish. That does not, however, implicate coalition massacres perpetrated by a majority or even sizable minority.

 

[CptStern]

I'm not saying they willfully commit atrocities en masse ..what I'm suggesting is far worse ...they're unconcerned about civlian casualities all together (those in charge, not the individual soldiers)

they've been fed that information because that works in their favor ...cant have soldiers willing to kill if they dont have much of a motivation to

 

[SAJ]

Solaris, you assume that all 30,000 of those deaths are from US hands.

Though it is fair to say that all of the three hundred thousand excess deaths in Iraq, are the sole responsibility of the US-led coalition that occupies the country.

 

[CptStern]

Whats more to say except that it was a horrible atrocity?

there's already a culture of apathy around this issue ...ignoring is far easier than dealing with the reality ..had this been a role reversal, had american children been killed by foreign fighters I guarentee this thread would be in the double digit page count full of people condemning the perpetrators and calling for them to be brought to justice

 

[Reaktor4]

Unsurprising.

 

[baxter]

"bring it on"

Bush said it was, “the biggest mistake that’s happened so far, at least from our country’s involvement in Iraq.” Bush said "I learned some lessons about expressing myself maybe in a little more sophisticated manner", and it was "kind of tough talk, you know, that sent the wrong signal to people."

Gee, I guess it really did, you ****ing pee brained idiot.

 

[French Ninja]

I don't like massacres and I don't like cover ups.

However, I hate it when the actions of a few are the defining characteristic of the group on the whole. After My Lai in Vietnam, every American soldier was seen as a murdering savage in the international community.(Some sorry excuses for people still have this view btw)

It better not happen again this time.

 

[_Z_Ryuken]

..had this been a role reversal, had american children been killed by foreign fighters I guarentee this thread would be in the double digit page count full of people condemning the perpetrators and calling for them to be brought to justice

All in favor of these soldiers entering eternal damnnation by whatever means possible say "Aye".

Aye.

Just kill them. I am apethetic towards most everything (thanks autism) but they are irrational, homicidal humans and deserve nothing short of life imprisonment.

 

[CptStern]

you dont have autism, and it doesnt make you apathetic ..oh and I'd rather they rotted in a prison cell for the rest of their lives

 

[_Z_Ryuken]

you dont have autism, and it doesnt make you apathetic ..oh and I'd rather they rotted in a prison cell for the rest of their lives

Who are you, Proffessor X?

 

[VictimOfScience]

Who are you, Proffessor X?

No, he isn't, but he knows his sh*t. We once had a great discussion about collapsing vaginal walls. :thumbs:

 

[A True Canadian]

No, he isn't, but he knows his sh*t. We once had a great discussion about collapsing vaginal walls. :thumbs:

That must mean he's Professor XXX! :O

 

[CptStern]

Who are you, Proffessor X?

my wife is a ABA (Applied Behavioral Analysis) therapist who works with autistic children, I worked as an art teacher in a special needs school for 7 years

I now work for a medical company ..hence the prolapsed vaginal walls discussion

 

[Korgoth]

Its just so funny and ironic to me that we allow this military entity to train our sons and daughters to become killers, arm them with the deadliest weapons known to mankind, brainwash and install hatred for the "enemy" in their minds, then send them to a foreign land to kill. And when they get out of control we blame them, and not those truly responsible, ourselves.

 

[_Z_Ryuken]

No, he isn't, but he knows his sh*t. We once had a great discussion about collapsing vaginal walls. :thumbs:

So that makes him my psychiatrist or am I missing something here?

 

[Yuri]

ZRYUKEN's COW PLOY PLOT utilises sympathy for his apparant autism! :E

Nobody cares if you're autistic or not. Stop mentioning it.

 

[_Z_Ryuken]

ZRYUKEN's COW PLOY PLOT utilises sympathy for his apparant autism! :E

Nobody cares if you're autistic or not. Stop mentioning it.

Keeping track?

 

[Yuri]

Do I have to?

Isn't this single isolated incident good enough to tell you to shut up about it?


BY THE WAY I HAVE ONE ARM.

 

[ríomhaire]

Its just so funny and ironic to me that we allow this military entity to train our sons and daughters to become killers, arm them with the deadliest weapons known to mankind, brainwash and install hatred for the "enemy" in their minds, then send them to a foreign land to kill. And when they get out of control we blame them, and not those truly responsible, ourselves.

The military do it and we're responsible? /speaking on behalf of Americans

 

[_Z_Ryuken]

Do I have to?
Isn't this single isolated incident good enough to tell you to shut up about it?
BY THE WAY I HAVE ONE ARM.

Lemme guess, you lost the other one shoving it so far up your own ass that it poked your medula oblongata and made you forever irate?

Isn't this single isolated incident really none of your business? Hm?

 

[CptStern]

you dont have autism ffs ...I've met hundreds of people with autism, not one could say a sentence longer than 4 words, that Rain man bullshit, is exactly that ..bullshit ..it's extremely rare.

 

[_Z_Ryuken]

Erroneus post. Meant for PM.

---
To keep this post from being useless, here is an introduction to the Autistic spectrum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autistic_spectrum

And for the sake of accuracy, I have A.S., which is why I am adept at written language.

---
And why not, for those that cannot find the link in that paragraph: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger's_syndrome

---
Let this issue rest here.

 

[Yuri]

Lemme guess, you lost the other one shoving it so far up your own ass that it poked your medula oblongata and made you forever irate?

Isn't this single isolated incident really none of your business? Hm?

Sorry, but its a bit annoying to randomly mention your ailments to get sympathy for no reason. Nobody cares. (Must be apathetic due to my brain tumor, sorry!)

BY THE WAY I HAVE LYME DISEASE.

 

[_Z_Ryuken]

Sorry, but its a bit annoying to randomly mention your ailments to get sympathy for no reason. Nobody cares. (Must be apathetic due to my brain tumor, sorry!)

BY THE WAY I HAVE LYME DISEASE.

There was no emphasis on autism at all. The complete point of that post was to get out my opinion of what should happen to the soldiers and for others to follow suit.
I failed on that point so I guess CptStern was right after all. (post #53)

I alluded to his being correct by demonstrating my own apathy, as I usually do, I present myself as caring very little about things that do not concern me directly as I emotionally distance myself from them, but the source of my apathy is merely skin deep (face value, I am constantly telling people to take what I say at face value), as I am a very spontaneously emotional person as is evident in certain recent, random bursts.

I can't expect you to understand as you are ridden with disability and incurable disease and on the brink of death, but it would be to everyone's advantage to know simple truths about the people they are conversing with.

You say I seek sympathy, but I say to you in truth I do not care of sympathy as I do not care for the people whom might give it. Merely having a mediocre understanding of my personality however might advantage everyone here, as I would benefit from knowing of others. Through understanding of this nature we can better communicate without these constantly surfacing troubles and pointless bickering.
This request is only logical.

 

[SAJ]

Ok, I've just opened up page five of this thread, and something tells me "we aint in kansas nomore toto".


(Human variant CJD is what gets me to the hospital btw).

 

[CptStern]

sigh ..autism is not a medically diagnosable disorder ..it's a set of symptoms. If you fall under any one of those symptoms you're labeled as autistic ..but it's mostly just an umbrella term to describe a wide range of symptons and mental disorders. Asperger's syndrome just barely qualifies for inclusion into autism ..it's still extremely rare and some doctors/psycologists believe that learning disabilities play a larger role than any mental disorder ..the reason why it's even included in autism is because of the tendency to be associated with particular behaviour that's also seen in autism ..like stimming



anyways PDD and aspergers should not be associated with autism as far as the public is concerned ..there's too much of a stigma behind autism





now can we get back on topic?

 

[_Z_Ryuken]

now can we get back on topic?

Pick up where we left off?

All in favor of these soldiers entering eternal damnnation by whatever means possible say "Aye".

Aye.

Just kill them. I am apethetic towards most everything but they are irrational, homicidal humans and in my twisted, unsociable logic, deserve nothing short of life imprisonment.

 

[falconwind]

the roadside bomb is not a surprise; that's what guerilla fighters do, they set traps and ambush occupying military forces and supply chains.

angry marines going off the hook and massacring unarmed civilians in revenge is NOT what soldiers are supposed to do. not to even mention that they gunned down women and children... what, was the baby holding a rocket-propelled grenade launcher? that is completely, totally criminal and a war crime by any measure.

there is absolutely no excuse for this. they are murderes, pure and simple. none of that "oh they're soldiers" grey-area bullshit. they brutally murdered helpless non-combatants, whole families!

that being said... i'm not longer surprised when US forces kill civilians... it happens so often that i just sort of sigh and say "again?" seriously, there is something messed up with your military.

they have technology that can send a cruise missile through a doorway.... but always manage to hit the WRONG doorway. then they say "oops, our bad, sorry" and it gets brushed under the table. surgical my ass, that's like expertly amputating a leg on the wrong person.

 

[^Ben]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5039714.stm

Looks like this was only the start.

 

[Lemonking]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5039714.stm

Looks like this was only the start.

pwnt

 

[Solaris]

pwnt

Hmmm
Fox News Versus the BBC
The most respected news organistation versus the reporters on magical pron.