Is Breen evil?

[Ferroque]

I'm just going to state once again: Anyone who sympathizes with Dr. Breen is a testament to just how manipulative and evil the he is. He is certainly charismatic, that much is certain. Look how he has convinced these innocent humans to defend him, despite the suffering and slaughter they themselves have witnessed and none other than Dr. Breen's guiding hand?

It's a pitty. In some ways you low-level collaborators are the most tragic victims in the Combine's enslavement of humanity.

CITIZEN, YOU ARE CHARGED WITH SOCIOCIDAL MALCOMPLIANCE, LEVEL ONE.

 

[Asknoone]

you know, Samon, SOMEHOW i guessed you would reply to a thread about dr. breen.

Furthermore with teleport technology and Gordon Freeman in his grasp who knows what he would've bargained for from the Combine?

Considering he was sneering when he said that, and said in such an arrogant way I very much doubt it. Breen isn't a good guy, he knows what is going on around him and is merely manipulating the events for his own gain.

 

[bigburpco]

I wouldn't be so sure on the latter. At the end of HL2 he was rather pleased with the position he found himself in, as though he was holding all the cards and had the ability to dictate to the Combine themselves.

"With both of you in my keeping I can dictate the terms of any bargain I care to make with the Combine!"

Deluded.

That's why I love Valve <3

Dr. Breen isn't evil. He's doing what he believes are right.

IMO he's evil, and believes in what he does.

 

[Asknoone]

The fact that Breen thinks he can dictate to a totalitarian alien super-power is pretty amusing.

 

[kupocake]

Delusional and lead on by an evil force, but not evil himself. Yet.

 

[Darkside55]

The thing is, Breen's own gain is really humanity's gain. Any deal he makes with the Combine would likely turn out better for us. Breen's not coldhearted, much as he might seem to be. I think he genuinely does care about humanity and what we can gain from the Combine. Certainly one can argue that if nothing else Breen values HUMANITY, if not necessarily valuing HUMANS; as in, he cares for the survival and progress of the species as a whole. Therefore any deal he struck with the Combine (had things gone his way) would have in some way benefitted humanity. And even if that were the most selfish motivation he had, ultimately it would have been our gain.

 

[Inyssius Grey]

CITIZEN, YOU ARE CHARGED WITH SOCIOCIDAL MALCOMPLIANCE, LEVEL ONE.

Awesome. If I was making a mod, I would include this quote.

 

[ríomhaire]

He's going for the lesser of 2 evils. He is also a little mad, probably from seclution.

 

[Max35]

No one else was in his position, so no one can judge.

 

[Asknoone]

I think we can. Were given enough of an insight into him.

 

[Max35]

Well, I suppose I meant it in a different way. No one can jump up and say "I could have done better" someone in his position could have easily bartered in the wrong way and could've gained the wrath of the Combine, ie extinction.

 

[Asknoone]

Well, it was only a two way situation.

 

[Max35]

It's late at night and I'm dense what do you mean exactly? The two way situation is Dr. Breen bartering with the Combine, how does that factor in with anything?

 

[wolven_rage]

I think he's genuinely ignorant as to what the combine are really doing, i mean he stays up in his office all day and he never sets foot outside the citadel and he probably gets handed doctored reports as to whats going on instead of hearing the truth.

 

[Darkside55]

I think he means that there were only those two options: extinction or cooperation. So really Breen took the only "real" choice. Hm, that sounds very familiar, doesn't it?

Anyway, check it out, guys...good, bad, he was right.

Made from a cleaned-up "Resist" poster. I'm gonna put this on a shirt.

 

[Asknoone]

Darkside, Breen isn't a good guy.

 

[15357]

And perhaps he wasn't a bad guy.


Its all in perspective and point of view.

 

[victor]

Yeah, I was personally hoping we'd moved on from the black-white, good-evil way of looking at things, which is pretty ignorant. This topic defeats itself.

 

[Max35]

All I'm saying is, someone could have done worse. Let's say you have some patton-reincarnate attempting to fight a multi-dimensional force, who would fail miserably, obviously plummeting the human race into extinction.

 

[Asknoone]

I'd rather be extinct than a withered, life-support dependant slave to an alien super power hell bent on the assimilation of every species in the known universes...

 

[Max35]

Breen slowed down the assimilation process, he saw the futility of continued war. As for the slaves/Stalkers, that only happened to those that resisted, the rest were either citizens (albiet oppressed) or part of the Combine.

Sure he did gained power, and liked it. I'm sure most would've given the bleak alternative. Breen did his best, and slowed things down. He wasn't going to just lay down and die (a futile war), he created a war of diplomacy, even though the other side had no need for it. Yes, he's selfish because he isn't ready to through himself into the abyss just yet.

And besides, we don't know if Breen is dead. Who knows what he is capable of, taking good and evil with equal consideration. Finally, given the developments in EP1, we are far from extinct. Though I doubt Breen would approve...

 

[Asknoone]

The ultimate fate of the human race was assimilation into the Combine ranks - Stalkers. Come the end of the Combines time on Earth, that is what would have happened. Breen didn't slow it down, he just added more lambs to the slaughter.

 

[Max35]

Hmm, I thought Stalkers were reserved for the resistance, and those who didn't become part of the Combine military (modified human soldiers). It was a fate reserved for those that refused to become part of the military. Anyway, if Breen didn't intervene, the Combine would have conquered and still assimilated, or just wiped us out. So, yes, in my view he did slow it down.

The main point is, it wasn't Breen's ultimate choice. It was either them, or all of humanity--including himself.

 

[Asknoone]

The Overwatch are essentially Stalkers though. Either way you'd eventually be forced into one or the other.

 

[ríomhaire]

I'd rather be extinct than a withered, life-support dependant slave to an alien super power hell bent on the assimilation of every species in the known universes...

No you wouldn't. The most basic human instict is survival. Otherwise slaves throughout history would have all commited suicide.

 

[Max35]

The Overwatch are essentially Stalkers though. Either way you'd eventually be forced into one or the other.

That is true, but given the choice I would rather be part of the Overwatch. Going past essentials, there are vast differences between a Stalker and Overwatch. Like, um, not being filled with Saline solution.

And riomhire is right. Human instinct supports survival. In the face of an overwhelming threat, one would be surprised how submissive someone becomes, and aggression falls by the wayside. Especially when that threat beat the snout out of all of humanity within seven hours.

Breen = lesser of two evils.

 

[Asknoone]

No you wouldn't. The most basic human instict is survival. Otherwise slaves throughout history would have all commited suicide.

You don't speak for every human on the planet. You are talking about the general consensus. Not me. I'd rather be dead, than become a Stalker. Don't tell me what I would and wouldn't do.

 

[Tagaziel]

I believe Breen was given a glimpse of the more preserved (or as of yet uninvaded) worlds of the Universal Union, which pretty much impacted his perception of it as a whole. Even after Earth was taken over and slowly assimilated into the Combine, he was under the impression of that view, and whatever ethics he posessed were eroded by the power he wielded as the Administrator of Earth.

George Orwell perfectly portrayed this in Nineteen Eighty-Four, in the character of O'Brien, who explains to Winston why the Party oppresses the people so much. It's because power is like a drug, the more you have, the more you want. The Combine exploited dr Breen's lust for knowledge and greed. The latter's example is his reaction to the capture of the Vances and Freeman, the "any bargain" line.

In short, Breen was propably a good Administrator, with a few character flaws, which were exploited by the Combine, turning him into a Stalin-esque leader of Earth.

-- Mikael Grizzly

 

[Max35]

Deep down people think they know how they will act in a particular situation, but when actually confronted with it, the outcome could be quite different. In the HL universe, even the dead don't find sanctity in oblivion (headcrab Zombies).

There are worse fates then becoming a Combine Soldier. You can make the argument that Soldiers are essentially Stalkers, but there are differences. Back ON topic, Breen faced power, or death or enslavement. He submitted, he's human. Like I said, no one can condemn Breen for submitting (limited choice).

Perhaps this isn't a question of morality, but of ability. He was doing what he thought was right (he gained power, sure, but he already had it). And in that seclusion he started to believe it more and more. Breen suffered along with humanity, but in opulent isolation (went slightly bonkers).

 

[Crowbar-at-hand]

Simon, Remember I said when Earth stood a fighting chance well.......I think fighting now is risky just as well as during the 7 Hours War. Humanity will be extermated no matter what. We were supposed to have been extermated during the 7 hours war, but Dr. Breen did the Saintly thing, so there would be no human casualties. But now with breen out of the picture Humanity will suffer. Weather it be the 7 hours war or during the revolution Humanity was destined to die, one way or the other. in the end WE LOSE!


P.S. Gordon is stupid what he did, Does he have no brain...He had to kill breen all because of the stupid love interest, as a result his actions will cause humanity to suffer, and it will be an apocalypse.

 

[Asknoone]

No, he tried to stop Breen from escaping Earth because it would potentially worse for us if he did so. Not because of Alyx...and, we aren't sure what will entail from Gordons actions in the Citadel.

 

[Crowbar-at-hand]

Your probably right, but I bet the Combine is planning Humanity's 'Final Solution'.

 

[Asknoone]

Oh, I believe they are.

 

[ríomhaire]

My personal motivation for the ending sequence of HL2 was destroying the citadel's reactor, not for Alyx or to stop Breen.

 

[victor]

I'm losing an IQ point for every crowbar-at-hand post I read.

On the topic of assimilation, I'm with Samon on this. It's not that you become a quasi-mechanical, saline-solution dependent monstrosity that bothers me. That's pretty cool, to be honest. The problem lies in the fact that the combine erase your memories, which equates to being killed anyway - and the citizens/Breen know this. So it's not a question of whether you would prefer to die, or become a slave, it's more a question of whether you want to die fighting for your freedom, or die becoming a slave. I'm pretty sure I'd choose the former.

And about "humanity standing a fighting chance" - No. Even if it was just striders and gunships etc, you must keep in mind that humanity was bunched up into fortified city centers, fending off xen wildlife. I doubt that in this case governments would be maintaining large numbers of tanks and jet aircraft. Not that it would have mattered anyway, since we were caught completely unawares.

 

[Is This Tea]

You don't speak for every human on the planet. You are talking about the general consensus. Not me. I'd rather be dead, than become a Stalker. Don't tell me what I would and wouldn't do.

Me too. It’s not just an issue of slavery either… I imagine that being a stalker would be like hell on earth. In the past slavery was only physical but, with the combine putting gizmos in your head, even your thoughts would be subject to their control… No thanks, I will take death.

Edit: Think of the technology they have too… you might live indefinitely in that state.

 

[Darkside55]

Aw, you pansies, you wouldn't even feel it! You wouldn't have any memories or thoughts or free will; you wouldn't even know what's going on. Stop whining.

 

[Max35]

Me too. It’s not just an issue of slavery either… I imagine that being a stalker would be like hell on earth. In the past slavery was only physical but, with the combine putting gizmos in your head, even your thoughts would be subject to their control… No thanks, I will take death.

Edit: Think of the technology they have too… you might live indefinitely in that state.

In the HL universe even the dead are tortured (headcrab Zombies).

 

[bbson john]

In the HL universe even the dead are tortured (headcrab Zombies).

Zombies are not dead. Dead will not become a Zombie.

 

[Asknoone]

My personal motivation for the ending sequence of HL2 was destroying the citadel's reactor, not for Alyx or to stop Breen.

I wasn't motivated towards destroying the teleport reactor. It was towards stopping Breen, cutting him off from being able to escape Earth.