Is Congress completely retarded!?

Icarus, you've said 3 or 4 times that signing the kyoto protocol would be econimic suicide, and that's pretty much verbatim the reason Bush gave for not signing on. Is there supporting evidence or is this just what the oil industry lobbyists are screaming?
 
as far as I understand it it's economic suicide in that they would have to pay millions or billions to make all factories etc. cleaner. But imo it's much more of an economical suicide NOT to sign it because we ARE ruining our enviroment. You can't just keep buying new dishes, someday you WILL have to wash them.
 
Oh, and anyone even thinking about mentioning a 'hydrogen economy' is teh sucks. Where do we get the hydrogen from? Splitting water. Where does the energy to split the water come from?
Click to expand...

You kidding? You can take a bit of bad energy like oil even, to help produce good energy like hydrogen. THen you can take the good energy, and use it to power the good energy if its built that way from the start.
 
The thing is, afaik it takes more energy to produce hydrogen than what hydrogen can give back. So you can't produce hydrogen with hydrogen, unless you've got a source of pure hydrogen.
 
MaxiKana said:
The thing is, afaik it takes more energy to produce hydrogen than what hydrogen can give back. So you can't produce hydrogen with hydrogen, unless you've got a source of pure hydrogen.
Click to expand...

AHh, well in that case, I dunno.

Maybe solar/windmill powered hydrogen farms.
 
Raziaar said:
You kidding? You can take a bit of bad energy like oil even, to help produce good energy like hydrogen. THen you can take the good energy, and use it to power the good energy if its built that way from the start.
Click to expand...

Nonono, even disregarding energy loss and assuming 100% efficiency, you still wouldn't create energy, just transfer it through bonds. You'd break apart water to produce hydrogen, and then burn hydrogen to produce water. The net energy change in those two reactions has to be zero, otherwise a bunch of thermodynamics laws are violated.

Of course, in the real world, nothing is 100% efficient, so you'd lose energy creating hydrogen fuel from fossil, polluting the atmosphere more.

Hydrogen is, however, a good energy carrier for vehicles, in the sense that it can give more power than most electric engines in terms of bhp. So using it as a 'medium' between renewable energy sources, ie:

Renewable energy source> Hydrogen> Engine

Is an attractive concept.

EDIT: Shit, Maxikana, spent ages writing that :p
 
In this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!
 
jondyfun said:
Renewable energy source> Hydrogen> Engine

Is an attractive concept.
Click to expand...

Okay we'll just have to massively scale up the amount of solar and wind in this country. Not to mention the amount of fresh water that is needed, which is also becoming scarce.
 
GhostBoi said:
Okay we'll just have to massively scale up the amount of solar and wind in this country. Not to mention the amount of fresh water that is needed, which is also becoming scarce.
Click to expand...

An attractive concept
 
You guys do know there's other ways to get hydrogen besides electrolysis, right?
 
Well besides god...you can also get it through differents types of chemical reactions.

http://www.cleanwatts.com/technology/default.asp
http://www.millenniumcell.com/technology/index.html

Like what those two technologies offer.I also remember watching something on tv about how GM came up this chemical made from sodium and some other agent that does a chemical reaction to make hydrogen.That millenniumcell site has a vid (need realplayer) that shows the reaction it's product does and explains it all.
 
Most hydrogen fuel cells use platinum, which isn't exactly cheap or plentiful. I couldn't see whether those two examples you gave used platinum, but I bet they do in some form.
 
Well I don't know also, but we can't really judge ether.Just email them and ask.
 
GhostBoi said:
Most hydrogen fuel cells use platinum, which isn't exactly cheap or plentiful. I couldn't see whether those two examples you gave used platinum, but I bet they do in some form.
Click to expand...

Gotta crack down on all those wannabe thugs... with the bling bling platinum. Melt all that jewelery down, and there ya go! 5 billion pounds of platinum.
 
Hey dude what's up?Haven't talked to you in a while.
 
tr0n, when the tech become mainstream you'll have a point :p but yeah, I'm hopeful, as you probably know those links are the tip of a huge iceberg of developing hydrogen technologies

GhostBoi said:
Most hydrogen fuel cells use platinum, which isn't exactly cheap or plentiful. I couldn't see whether those two examples you gave used platinum, but I bet they do in some form.
Click to expand...

Bear in mind that the platinum will be used as a catalyst, not a reactant.. in the same way it is used in millions of catalytic converters in cars across the world.
 
GhostBoi said:
I really don't think hydrogen is going to save us, once oil and gas are gone, we are going to have to learn to not travel as far and just walk places.
http://www.popsci.com/popsci/generaltech/article/0,20967,927469-1,00.html
Click to expand...

Hydrogen will be part of a huge network of flourishing sustainable technologies when the oil finally runs out... I agree, I don't see its usefulness rising much further above 'carrier' status, but there are some independant researchers that beg to differ and I'm hoping they're right :)
 
jondyfun said:
Hydrogen will be part of a huge network of flourishing sustainable technologies when the oil finally runs out...
Click to expand...

You act as if we have ample time to prepare, on the contrary we have 5 to 10 years at best.
 
RakuraiTenjin said:
You can power a car using iceberg lettuce
Click to expand...

you can power anything using the natural energy that occurs in visibly empty space, between the atoms. We dont need to be dependant on other people supplying energy to us in material form, its all around us waiting to be tapped.
 
GhostBoi said:
You act as if we have ample time to prepare, on the contrary we have 5 to 10 years at best.
Click to expand...

You misinterpret me, I'm fully aware of the danger we're in and believe me I'm not a proponent of sitting on our thumbs while waiting for the gas to run out :)

But my statement still stands, there will be a huge industry in alternative fuels as the oil runs out, simply because demand will ensure supply. Whether the supply will satisfy the world's demands is another matter entirely.

RakuraiTenjin said:
No that is not true.
Click to expand...

Foiled again :D
 
jondyfun said:
But my statement still stands, there will be a huge industry in alternative fuels as the oil runs out, simply because demand will ensure supply. Whether the supply will satisfy the world's demands is another matter entirely.
Click to expand...

Oh okay then, I'm happy.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Warped
A War on Christmas
Replies
38
Views
2K
Polaris
Polaris
Back
Top