Italy to loose gun laws

[Recoil]

Hi all :E interesting news from our southern friends...

Hello All, I thought you would find it curious that Italy has also reacted to the increase in crime and terrorism by adopting a Firearms Bill that, if passed into law, will liberalise the detention and use of firearms by private citizens.

Because of increased street crime, house break-ins (with the occupants present) and terrorism the Italian Government has decided to liberalise the very restrictive Italian Gun Laws. Italians will be able to buy virtually any weapon (except full auto), in any quantity and detain any quantity of ammunition.

Also, the new law would allow people to use their firearms in self-defence without the provision of "proportion"; that the defensive response be in proportion the assailants weapons/deadly intentions. Simply stating, "Stop or I will shoot" will be enough!

By the way, the restrictive gun laws that this Bill intends to abrogate were introduced by Mussolini in 1921. The Fascists disarmed the population in order to increase their power; Hitler adopted a similar law.

I know that many Americans are used to buy whatever they want, but for poor Europeans like me this is a great oportunity to get my hands on some guns legally :cheers: - my family has a second home in Italy!

Ok, so much for my personal opinion on this... what do you guys think? Will this help the Italians to fight crime effectively? I think it's an interesting contrast to the British way of thinking... (new crime bill)

Discuss (and I'm gonna take cover now...)

edit: by the way, I wouldn't use/buy guns to shoot someone, I'd get them for sport purposes only! Protection (at home) may be a nice side effect.

 

[MjM]

So now the mafia can be armed to the teeth legally?

 

[Link]

As you say, it is in contrast to our way (British) of thinking about gun crime. Several times, they have restricted weapons, making more and more classes of gun illegal. For some incomprehensible reason, the powers that be think that criminals will hand over their guns. It is the most obscure theory in history, and one that has been proven utterly wrong.
Since the handgun ban after dunblane, crime involving weapons has doubled.
The only people who are affected by these laws are the people who obey them anyway, who are not the people who commit gun related crime. This inescapable logic seems to have never the less escaped our politicians.

I say Italy is an example to follow. As to shooting people who enter your house without permission, well, they shouldn't be breaking in. Tony Martin had the right idea. Shame he went about it so cock handedly.


As I say, the Italians have got the right idea on this one, this is actually a step forward in reducing crime. Only a small one, but it’s a step.

MjM - So what? The mob is going to be armed whether its legal or not, but you would only be armed if it is legal. This way when the mob attacks, at least you will have more than a spatula to defend yourself with.

"Mama Mia" - *SLAP* Isn't going to work...

 

[Recoil]

So now the mafia can be armed to the teeth legally?

Like Link said... they don't care now either...

The only people who are affected by these laws are the people who obey them anyway, who are not the people who commit gun related crime.

Yep, I think that's true in the area of gun laws.

...I just hope the EU won't intervene - it's kinda strange that you can buy weapons easily in a Schengen-country. You could bring them all over Europe illegally without being controlled.

 

[Shodan]

God I would love laws like that.

If this stupid firearms act bans Airsoft (see signature) I will go crazy!

I wish Blair would stop banning things to make a certain group of people happy (Old people/Concerned mothers)

If he thinks that banning all guns would stop gun crime the man is stupid beyond words.

 

[Recoil]

If he thinks that banning all guns would stop gun crime the man is stupid beyond words.

But you know very well that that's the way many (most?) people think...

 

[SAJ]

I will believe this story when I some proof, rather than "from a friend of a friend".
Lets see a link please.

 

[Recoil]

Sorry, forgot the source: http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/ (4:53 a.m. 13 Jul 2005)

The info is from a law enforcement equipment manufacturer. I somehow wonder if the EU will let that thing happen, though...

 

[SAJ]

Quote from the person that posted the information on the airsoft site :

I was having a dig around on the net to see if I could pull up any resources about the proposed change that Stefano mentions, but they all pull up NRA related links that don't exactly form the most unbiased media to mention

Looks like we will have to wait for confirmation of this rumour then.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

Congrats to all Italians! Great day for rights and self protection in Italy.

As someone said in regards to the EU doing anything. If they even have the power to, you Euro countries are having your soveirgnty trampled upon.

 

[Recoil]

As someone said in regards to the EU doing anything. If they even have the power to, you Euro countries are having your soveirgnty trampled upon.

Yeah, kinda. But what can one do...? Politics around here seem to me like a big PR-show and blind actionism... and when they hear about guns being legalized even more they'll go nuts "OMG NO GUNZ FOR CITIZENS, TAHT'S 2 EVIL!!11"

If Italy gets this going I'll be there way more often maybe I'll move there anyway, the people are nicer (zee angry Germans seem not...*), the food is better (I don't like Sauerkraut and Potatos all the time...*) , the climate is warmer (****in grey sky here all the time)... their political leader may be corrupt, but as I said, most of the German politicians seem to be idiots anyway.

*may true or may not be true.

 

[Razor]

Congrats to all Italians! Great day for rights and self protection in Italy.

As someone said in regards to the EU doing anything. If they even have the power to, you Euro countries are having your soveirgnty trampled upon.

There are some things that the EU can't touch, but i think a number of countries will be looking very closely at Italy to see what happens. The problem with Britain taking a similar stance is you have all of these anti-gun people that would be protesting and causing mayhem.

 

[CptStern]

anti-gun people squaring up with armed gun nuts ...ya I can see how the anti-gun people could cause mayhem .............................................................. :O

 

[Sulkdodds]

Personally, it seems like a bad idea.

Organised crime is going to have guns anyway, but it will be much harder for them to get guns if they're legal. And most crimes are committed by ordinary people who are simply stressed, or pissed off, or have no money...it just seems to me that there will be a lot more crime if you can just walk into a shop and buy a gun as opposed to having to get hold of one illegally. Correct me if I'm wrong there.

Airsoft is a different matter. Airsoft ftw!

 

[Kangy]

Why do the Italians need gun legalization? Self-protection is bullshit, Italy has a relatively low murder and general crime rate in comparison to places that supposedly "need" their guns, like the US... How exactly does arming the populace fight terrorism? So they can shoot suspicious looking characters?

Nice, nice.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

Personally, it seems like a bad idea.

Organised crime is going to have guns anyway, but it will be much harder for them to get guns if they're legal. And most crimes are committed by ordinary people who are simply stressed, or pissed off, or have no money...it just seems to me that there will be a lot more crime if you can just walk into a shop and buy a gun as opposed to having to get hold of one illegally. Correct me if I'm wrong there.

Airsoft is a different matter. Airsoft ftw!

Most studies of examples of gun laws being relaxed show a drop in crime afterwords. Criminals will get the guns either way. However, a mugger is going to be a lot more afraid of robbing/shooting someone if he has no idea if that person could likely take him out.


* Approximately 11% of gun owners and 13% of handgun owners have used their firearms for protection from criminals.

* When citizens use guns for protection from criminals, the criminal is wounded in about 1 out of every 100 instances, and the criminal is killed in about 1 out of every 1000 instances. --(note: Using gun for protection doesn't have to mean shots fired, the gun could simply be brandished and the criminal flees)

* Washington D.C. enacted a virtual ban on handguns in 1976. Between 1976 and 1991, Washington D.C.'s homicide rate rose 200%, while the U.S. rate rose 12%.


Gun laws being relaxed example
* Right-to-carry laws require law enforcement agencies to issue handgun permits to all qualified applicants. Qualifications include criteria such as age, a clean criminal record, and completing a firearm safety course.

* In 1986, nine states had right-to-carry laws.

* As of 1998, 31 states have right-to-carry laws, and about half the U.S. population lives in these states.

* In 1996, Dr. John R. Lott of the University of Chicago Law School published the results of a crime study conducted using FBI data for all 3,045 U.S. counties from 1977 to 1992.

* The study sought to answer the question, "What happens to crime when states adopt right-to-carry laws?"

* Between 1977 and 1992, 10 states adopted right-to-carry laws. Dr. Lott's study found that the implementation of these laws created:
-- no change in suicide rates,
-- a .5% rise in accidental firearm deaths,
-- a 5% decline in rapes,
-- a 7% decline in aggravated assaults,
-- and an 8% decline in murder

for the 10 states that adopted these laws between 1977 and 1992.
* Using 1995 numbers, this amounts to:

-- 1 more accidental gun death,
-- 316 less murders,
-- 939 less rapes,
-- and 14,702 less aggravated assaults

in these 10 states annually.


Florida example
* Florida adopted a right-to-carry law in 1987. At the time the law was passed, critics predicted increases in violence. The founder of the National Organization of Women, Betty Friedan stated:
"lethal violence, even in self defense, only engenders more violence."

* When the law went into effect, the Dade County Police began a program to record all arrest and non arrest incidents involving concealed carry licensees. Between September of 1987 and August of 1992, Dade County recorded 4 crimes committed by licensees with firearms. None of these crimes resulted in an injury. The record keeping program was abandoned in 1992 because there were not enough incidents to justify tracking them.

* Florida adopted a right-to-carry law in 1987. Between 1987 and 1996, these changes occurred:
Florida
homicide rate -36%
firearm homicide rate -37%
handgun homicide rate -41%

United States
homicide rate -.4%
firearm homicide rate +15%
handgun homicide rate +24%


* 221,443 concealed carry licenses were issued in Florida between October of 1987 and April of 1994. During that time, Florida recorded 18 crimes committed by licensees with firearms.

* As of 1998, nationwide, there has been 1 recorded incident in which a permit holder shot someone following a traffic accident. The permit holder was not charged, as the grand jury ruled the shooting was in self defense.

* As of 1998, no permit holder has ever shot a police officer. There have been several cases in which a permit holder has protected an officer's life.



The facts on this issue are clear.

 

[Recoil]

Self-protection is bullshit, Italy has a relatively low murder and general crime rate in comparison to places that supposedly "need" their guns, like the US... How exactly does arming the populace fight terrorism?

Well, read the text:

Because of increased street crime, house break-ins (with the occupants present) and terrorism the Italian Government has decided to liberalise the very restrictive Italian Gun Laws.

Of course the terror-reason is b/s, probably a justification to support the bold marked factors, and as far as I know crime is pretty high for a civilized EU-country...

 

[CptStern]

terrorism? how do you fight terrorism with a handgun? shoot anyone who looks suspicious?

 

[Shodan]

terrorism? how do you fight terrorism with a handgun? shoot anyone who looks suspicious?

Isn't that the american way?


(J/k)

 

[CptStern]

it is isnt it?

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

No, it isn't.

 

[Razor]

In my opinion, guns should be like cars, you can own one as long as you are trained in its use, and part of that training is teaching other people in your home how to be responsible with it. At the end of that, you get a license and can then buy a gun.

 

[CptStern]

In my opinion, guns should be like cars, you can own one as long as you are trained in its use, and part of that training is teaching other people in your home how to be responsible with it. At the end of that, you get a license and can then buy a gun.

ya but how many idiot drivers are on the road?

 

[Razor]

ya but how many idiot drivers are on the road?

I am sure guns would settle that problem :cheers:

 

[Kangy]

Well, read the text:



Of course the terror-reason is b/s, probably a justification to support the bold marked factors, and as far as I know crime is pretty high for a civilized EU-country...

http://www.nationmaster.com/country/it/Crime

This source is pretty clear - Italy really shouldn't have the gun laws relaxed. It already has a high ranked manslaughter rate... yet middle of the road for nearly every other kind of crime out there, certainly one not to be alarmed about. It does, however, have a low police trust level. If this is really the reason why Italy is rearming, it's a foolish one.

Since when has mob rule ever worked?

 

[Steve]

So now the mafia can be armed to the teeth legally?

Dude, the mafia is HERE. They got run outta Italy by that guy like back in the day. 'n' stuff. Heh. Talking dumb is fun.

 

[Top Secret]

terrorism? how do you fight terrorism with a handgun? shoot anyone who looks suspicious?

It's actually pretty simple.

If you see someone running at you with a vest on full of plastic explosives, then you pop them before they tug the chord.

 

[smwScott]

It's actually pretty simple.

If you see someone running at you with a vest on full of plastic explosives, then you pop them before they tug the chord.

There are good arguments both for and against gun control, however fighting terrorism is not one. If it was really that obvious that the guy was a suicide bomber he'd be swarmed immediately, the last thing I want is some redneck taking potshots at a walking bomb.

More than likely it's just going to be some guy on a train who looks relatively close to everyone else there. He'll be wearing a jacket, but so will plenty of other people. Then boom. You're gun can't do shit to stop terrorism.

However, I do believe there is merit to the argument that guns can reduce the amount of petty crime, such as muggings, robberies, and car jackings. In many cases it really is a case of the law only affecting the ones who obey it. Buying a gun illegally in America isn't any harder than buying weed. However I think it should be treated as a privelige, not a right.

 

[JellyWorld]

I think gun laws are only useful if the police are organized enough to enforce them. Otherwise the only people affected will be the law-abiding citizens who only use their guns for self-protection. It's like permanently sealing the lock of a building to prevent people from getting in, normal people are inconvenienced, whereas any thief determined enough can still break in.

 

[SAJ]

It's actually pretty simple.

If you see someone running at you with a vest on full of plastic explosives, then you pop them before they tug the chord.

Thankyou , I couldnt have thought up a better example of american gun-nut thinking if I tried.

 

[The Monkey]

Will this help the Italians to fight crime effectively?

It will do the exact opposite.

 

[StardogChampion]

When guns are legal more people will die, it's that simple. Guns should be illegal everywhere.

 

[Razor]

When guns are legal more people will die, it's that simple. Guns should be illegal everywhere.

It would stop accidents and nothing else. If you outlaw guns then it won't stop people getting guns if they want them and generally, if the people who want them when they're illegal would most probably be the ones that will be robbing banks with them and mugigng people with them.

 

[The Monkey]

It would stop accidents and nothing else. If you outlaw guns then it won't stop people getting guns if they want them and generally, if the people who want them when they're illegal would most probably be the ones that will be robbing banks with them and mugigng people with them.

Well then the government must make sure that no one gets hold of guns at all.

 

[Top Secret]

Lmao, you people don't even know why the people have the right to bear arms. In fact, I think most of my fellow Americans don't realise it. The reason we are given the right to bear arms, is to protect our other rights. To put it bluntly, the guns are there for revolution. And revolution, is healthy. You may call me a gun nut, but I didn't write the constitution. I just love it.

 

[Steve]

Lmao, you people don't even know why the people have the right to bear arms. In fact, I think most of my fellow Americans don't realise it. The reason we are given the right to bear arms, is to protect our other rights. To put it bluntly, the guns are there for revolution. And revolution, is healthy. You may call me a gun nut, but I didn't write the constitution. I just love it.

Well...yeah. In case the government becomes corrupt and needs to be overthrown. Everybody knows that.

 

[Warbie]

... and all the scared people rush out and by guns.



(the people in this world who feel they need guns are the last people I want to have them)

 

[CptStern]

Lmao, you people don't even know why the people have the right to bear arms. In fact, I think most of my fellow Americans don't realise it. The reason we are given the right to bear arms, is to protect our other rights. To put it bluntly, the guns are there for revolution. And revolution, is healthy. You may call me a gun nut, but I didn't write the constitution. I just love it.

a revolution you dont have a hope in hell of winning ...the military would be quick to quell any uprising brutally and swiftly. Kent State massacre being a good example

 

[Tr0n]

Kent state massacre wasn't really an uprising...or a revolution.Just a bunch of kids protesting...then some trigger happy son of a bitch fired.

Also no one(including me) would know who would win what.We don't know the future.Hell...I bet the brits thought the same.Again...no one knows what would happen.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

It will do the exact opposite.

How so?

The examples I gave on page 2 show a dramatic decrease in crime in areas when gun laws are relaxed.

a revolution you dont have a hope in hell of winning ...the military would be quick to quell any uprising brutally and swiftly. Kent State massacre being a good example

When politics reach the point of revolution generally it depends on what the issue is, but generally the military will split along the sides, so you'd have a pretty tough thing going on.

"Conservatives vs liberals" wouldn't happen and is a bad example because you could have "Conservative, liberal, conservative, liberal, etc etc" all living in one neighborhood together. An example has to be like South vs North, or specific regions or groups.

You can bet if something happened like a future president had all members of congress arrested then took over capitol hill or something, there would be a rebellion against him and a good amount of the military would follow with the rebels. Generals and soldiers fight for the constitution, not for any man.