Jaded Gaming

[Jintor]

Cross-posted from PA, because we have eloquent people here too, damnit.

My son is 11. Growing up in a home with a guy who's played games forever, watching his dad play games since day one... up until some recent eBay sales, we had a dozen different consoles and three different handhelds in the house ? naturally he plays games, too. Not nearly as much as I do, but enough to be enthusiastic about them. We do some gaming together, but he mostly has his own stuff that he likes to play. These days it?s largely DS games; Pokemon, Age of Empires, Lego Star Wars, etc., etc.

On the Xbox (and now the 360), the one game he always goes back to is Star Wars: Battlefront. He's a huge Star Wars fan and he loves getting into those big giant battles.

So one day he asks to play Battlefront (the system is not his; he asks before playing games), and I say, "Nah, no Battlefront. Try this instead."

And I hand him Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic.

Mind you, outside of Pokemon he's never played an RPG before. He's watched me play some here and there, and I ran him through a D&D dungeon once or twice, but otherwise this was totally new to him. It's simply not the sort of game he plays.

Took him a while to get the hang of it, but once he got into things he was hooked. The fascinating part is watching him choose dialogue options and react to the story and all that. Unlike me, he doesn't see the GAME behind the game, if you know what I mean. He doesn't think about the mechanics or how to manipulate dialogue options or any of that stuff. For him, he's living in the Star Wars universe for a little while and seeing things in those terms.

For instance, at some point some NPC tries to give him a datapad. It was a side quest trigger of some sort. But he wouldn't take it! "Oh no," he told me, "I didn't trust him. I'm sure that thing had a tracking device in it. Malick wants to find me BAD." When he encountered the dark Jedi on Tatoinne he didn?t see it as a mere encounter, he said, "How did they track me here!??" He doesn't see the mechanics behind the game, he's just living in the world during the time he plays.

Holy hell, I remember playing games like that! I remember that time before you became aware of the game. How on Earth do you recapture that sense of totally getting lost like that? I don't think I could now if I tried. I get absorbed in them, yes, but never so far into them that I forget there are game mechanics driving the whole thing, or that there are certain rules holding the whole experience together. He's playing it like it?s a living, breathing world with all sorts of stuff happening, not like it's a scripted, focused game experience.

I dunno why, but it struck me as kind cool to see someone playing games and not seeing the game, if you know what I mean.

I want to be there when he finds out the truth about Revan.

Now, I don't know about you, but I hate being a trope-addicted cynical jaded gamer bastard who can see the plot twist of almost anything or cannot resist spoiling himself. It takes a very exceptional game nowadays to do that to me - HL2: Ep2 was the closest I've been in a very long while, I think. Games have been games to me since I was 9 or 10. I think Deus Ex might perhaps have been one of the only games where I did really feel like I was taking lives, where the plot twists actually mattered, where I couldn't predict down to the ammo-clip how the level design would work out. I see the game designers before I see the game, if you see what I mean.

We have a group with this kind of thing, but I figured the rest of you guys would like to talk about it. When was the last time you felt totally immersed in a game? I had a glimpse of it the other day, watching a guard walk by in Deus Ex 2. For a moment, a brief moment, as I ducked into a vent as a guard's back was turned, I felt a small sensation of thrill at outwitting some nameless security grunt. But before long I was cursing the level design, the lack of originality - I was looking for flaws, I wasn't playing the game. And I feel tired. I feel tired of being this jaded and cynical and old.

The worst part maybe is that I might have spoiled this kind of feeling for my brother. I honestly don't know if he's ever had this feeling, but he's 11, and he plays DoTa almost religiously. He's a multiplayer gamer. But he looks up build orders, he looks up faqs, he tries to get optimal spread of abilities and items and whatnot, but it's all spoon-fed to him and he never tries to work it out himself. I'm sure he has the sense of satisfaction at pwning a n00b, say, but does he - has he ever had the same kind of emotional connection I had when I first played Spyro 2, or Deus Ex, or Half-Life? I don't know. I'll have to make him play a singleplayer game one day, and see. But I'm sure that he'll be thinking what he always hears me say, what he hears me complain about - this level design sucks, see how it's designed to trap you in? Or: that thing there is to attract your attention and distract you from the zombie ambush - there it is!

Being able to see the framework behind the world sucks.

 

[Hectic Glenn]

I really enjoyed reading that guy's post, it's really true, you lose that excitement and thrill you are actually going to die in a game. It takes you to another level where you form an attachment to the game where you hang on every word. I get the same feeling, envy. I want to feel that again, I think it's impossible to go back to it, after understanding the mechanics.

Playing Resident Evil 1 and Dino Crisis, I used to be terrified. But perhaps that was because I was young? If I played them now for the first time...would I feel the same immersion?

 

[Jintor]

Possibly another example of how this has effected me was playing through a section of Episode 2 today, in the caryard with the combine autoguns. Crawling through the rusted piles of flattened cars, I came across a little hut that I knew from previous playthroughs contained Combine troopers. I blasted open the window, threw a grenade, tossed it through and jumped through. But I'd mis-timed the grenade, and hadn't killed two of the troopers, who attempted to riddle me with bullets. I killed them both and noticed that I was now on approximately 40 less hp then when I started.

I quickloaded.

I did it again. This time I took out all but one of the troopers, who ran away. There was a faint spark as I heard "Outbreak Outbreak Outbreak!" in the dude's voice, but then I shot him and noticed this time I had lost 20 hp.

I quickloaded.

It got to the point where I was trying to work out the best way to position the grenades so that it would kill all three of them at once, and was quickloading literally every 5 seconds to work it out. Eventually I got fed up with it and just accepted the 10hp drop and continued on, but it felt like I had lost something.

So I just gave up and started mucking around with console commands. That was fun as hell, certainly, but bye-bye story.

 

[Dekstar]

I think I got really immersed in the original metal gear solid. That was pretty awesome for me as I was playing it usually around friends, and we were all like "oh-shit-oh-shit they might find us" when running away after being spotted by guards.

But now, yeah, totally about mechanics. I think that's partly due to me wanting to become a games developer, I kind of got into that mindset of seeing how people do things. Also learning to map was another. Damnit.

 

[ríomhaire]

quickloaded.

That's just playing like a cheapskate. When I see I'm on low health I think "Shit, I'd better be careful" not, "When was my last save?"

 

[Evo]

When it comes to having to write about games this is what gets to me. I play a game and have to see all these things which have been done wrong or just scream out that it is a game you are playing and break the immersion.

Damn cynicism

 

[Lobster]

I will never forget my first play-through of Half-Life, the Office Complex chapter left a lasting impression on me because for some reason I just baught everything that was going on, I remember busting out of a vent on one of the stairwells, and a security guard stands up from his dead friend and begins talking to me, whilst pulling his gun and blind-firing at a zombie coming through a door I hadnt even noticed. Now I could probbally script the event myself, but for me it was just happening then and there.

As for quickloading! when the first Splinter Cell demo came out for the PC, I quite liked the game, so I tried to complete the 2 demo levels without using a single bullet or piece of equipment, and without so much as turning a guards head, I managed to do this after several restarts apart from one tiny turn in a road, where it was impossible, I remember being quite annoyed that they hadnt accounted for an OCD obsessed geek like myself!

Replayability in games is a difficult thing to do, esspeacialy a linear game, Achievements at least give you somthing different to try.

 

[Tagaziel]

A good game makes me forget the mechanics altogether.

Jarring inconsistencies or big errors in programming are annoying for me, though.

 

[Fishlore]

The problem for me, when I was that age (kid in the linked post) I was using a pixelated block to shoot at another pixelated block for points on an Atari. For this kid, his child-like imagination is overlapping with a quality game to create a great experience. I didn't have "electronic" rpg games, shooters, strategy games, etc. until I lost that child-like imagination. I didn't have dialogue options or real-ish looking games of my favorite movies to play in. I had a blocky guy swinging on a vine over a pit of alligators, or a few pixel spaceship shooting asteroids.

I'd imagine the father in that post was in a similar position as I and I imagine that when the kid grows up a few more years he'll see the same game mechanics we all do. I don't think this is something an adult could ever possibly get back.

 

[Laivasse]

That feeling of uninhibited immersion is the greatest thing I get from gaming, but nowadays it's more and more elusive. The reason that RPGs are without doubt my favourite genre is because they're the games which, historically, have done the best job of eliciting that feeling, by obscuring the game's framework from me. There's something about an intensely story driven game that makes you want to overlook the seams in the stitching and approach it with a less cynical eye.

Like I say, it's more elusive recently... I don't think it's any coincidence that the last, richest immersive gaming experience I had was with an old Bioware RPG, and the original poster mentions a Bioware RPG in his post. For me it was probably Baldur's Gate (the first one). It was the first time I'd played a computer RPG which was that polished, that huge, that non-linear, and I was overwhelmed. Frequently I would find myself feeling less like I was playing a game and more like a person wandering through countryside with his lil band of co-adventurers, birds chirping, or trudging into town in the middle of the night, soaked in rain and looking for a peasant to ask as to the whereabouts of the nearest inn.

Planescape was another one. While much more linear in terms of game progression, it was an evolution of the way a story could be told through an RPG, giving you dialogue choices where you could eg. 1) Offer to help someone, 2) VOW to help them, 3) Offer to help them (as a lie), or 4) Tell them to piss off and die - all within the context of a highly structured story where the main character and NPCs felt like believable people, replete with tangible goals and torments.

With each successive game Bioware seemed to really be making a stab at refining a player's game-world interactions so that the game underneath was less intrusive. For instance, changing the way fetch quests worked so that when an NPC demanded 'I WANT TEN RAT PENISES,' instead of saying 'OK I will fetch them' then having to re-initiate dialogue and say 'OK here they are,' you could instead choose 'Rat penises, you say? It just so happens that I have ten right here.'

I think they were one of the few software houses who at that time realised the value of refining the sophistication of storytelling in games, as opposed to just improving the graphical technology... I also think gaming as a storytelling medium has lost out a lot by not having any real successor to games like those. I've been playing The Witcher: Enhanced lately, and while it's a gorgeous game and a clear labour of love by people who recognise the potential of the genre, interaction with the game world is no more sophisticated, and in many cases more primitive, than those old Infinity Engine games. It doesn't matter if your game has a nice physics engine if, for example, I'm back to having to re-initiate dialogue in order to complete the rat penises quest.

I also shouldn't be watching Geralt of Rivia make deductions about the story that I never personally could have reached. That happened to me the other night. When I played on a little further, it became clear that he had been working on information from the completion of a quest that I had yet to complete. At that point I was taken right out of the game world and made to think, 'oh so that's the order the developers wanted me to complete things.' One half of my mind ends up playing the game for the story and experience, the other half is engaged in a plate-spinning exercise where I'm trying to avoid screwing myself over by falling into the pitfalls created by developer oversight.

Of course RPGs o adventure games aren't the only ones that can create immersion sufficient to mask a game's mechanics. Anything with a good story, or a believable game world and internal consistency can do it. I found myself pretty well wrapped up in all the HL2 games so far. With FPSes, though, the tangible threat of player death has to be a part of the experience so that players are motivated to fight for their lives. The problem is that every time someone actually dies, it's a fracturing of the immersiveness because in actuality the player is, hopefully, still alive and reaching for the quickload key. Yahtzee pokes fun at that problem in an indirect way in the STALKER: Clear Sky review. Of course if you go too far the other way and make it too difficult for a player to die, you either get criticisms of 'too easy' or you create the same problems that Bioshock did.

Yeah, getting jaded has a lot to do with the ebbing sense of immersion that games create... But I also think that games genuinely haven't kept up with consumer demand for good storytelling. In many cases it's just a single inspired addition which can make all the difference; how different would Portal have been without the superb script for GlaDOS for instance? Most of the flaws these days in the way that games suspend disbelief can be attributed IMO to developers approaching their work as workmen rather than as auteurs. Going a little bit above and beyond the call of duty in empathising with the player can work wonders.

 

[Tagaziel]

I wouldn't say Bioware are masters of the RPG craft. Rather, they are masters of limiting your choices and hiding them well, like in Mass Effect.

And please don't insult Planescape: Torment by calling it a Bioware RPG. It's not Bioware, it was primarily written by Black Isle Studios, the same crew that created Fallout 2 and later Vampire: Bloodlines, Arcanum and Knights of the Old Republic 2, all very refined and advanced RPGs, Arcanum even more so, since the game really reacted to your character and it's actions. The lead designer was MCA, Chris Avellone, my personal god after his work on Planescape: Torment and KOTOR 2.

RPGs nowadays, when they are released, for me, are almost uniformly worthless, as most try to recreate Beth's "frictionless gaming" concept, as one of the game devs called it on NMA, which is offering the player as much freedom as possible, while at the same time removing any and all obstacles, including challenge and consequences of their actions, so that *gasp* the gamer doesn't have to face any of his choices.

This is why I loved Witcher, where there were no good choices, and you HAD to make them and you HAD to face the consequences. The odd poorly structured quest didn't break the feeling of amazement.

And let me guess, the Detective?

 

[Laivasse]

Rather, they are masters of limiting your choices and hiding them well

Never meant to imply otherwise, but nor do I think that a well-masked limit on freedom is a bad thing, regardless of who's developing. That's why I count Planescape's 'highly structured' nature as something that worked well for it and it's the reason why it's a slightly better, more story-driven game to me than, say, Fallout.

And let me guess, the Detective?

Yup.

Spoiler

I searched the cemetery before I did the autopsy. So I spotted Raymond's corpse and was like 'HOLY SHIT! That's Raymond!'

So I walk up to the corpse and inspect it, and Geralt says 'HOLY SHIT! I guess Raymond is Azar Javed!'

A real WTF moment.

No spoilers past that point pl0x, that's more or less as far as I've got atm.

The Witcher's a game that definitely deserves far more praise than criticism. The Detective quest was an ambitious one and had so many different things going on at once that it's understandable the devs should make some oversights in tying up the loose ends. Nevertheless, when it comes to game mechanics being intrusive, the game as a whole still has some flaws which come purely down to lack of refinement in the storytelling ideology. For instance, NPCs repeating a stock line like 'What is it, Witcher?' every time you're returned to the base dialogue choice menu, occasionally having to reinitiate dialogue with the same character in order to complete quests, etc... Then there's the perennial problem with english language (and particularly American accented) voice acting, where half the characters sound like they're doing a Dan LaFontaine impression. I switched to Polish speech and english subs within 10 minutes. Plus all the female characters have huge plasticky-looking tits the size of spacehoppers.

If CD Projekt ever do a sequel I'll be salivating at the prospect of a game with some of those immersion breaking wrinkles ironed out.

 

[Tagaziel]

Never meant to imply otherwise, but nor do I think that a well-masked limit on freedom is a bad thing, regardless of who's developing. That's why I count Planescape's 'highly structured' nature as something that worked well for it and it's the reason why it's a slightly better, more story-driven game to me than, say, Fallout.

Well, there's no use comparing PS:T to Fallout. Fallout is an RPG focusing on open-ended gameplay (not the "play pretend" of TES), role-playing your character and facing consequences of your actions and choices. PS:T focuses on the story and role-playing in it's context.

Yup.

Spoiler

I searched the cemetery before I did the autopsy. So I spotted Raymond's corpse and was like 'HOLY SHIT! That's Raymond!'

So I walk up to the corpse and inspect it, and Geralt says 'HOLY SHIT! I guess Raymond is Azar Javed!'

A real WTF moment.

No spoilers past that point pl0x, that's more or less as far as I've got atm.

Hehe. You know what screwed up the quest for me? I didn't visit the Detective's house often, so after I ran out of options, I went back, and had to enter/reenter it repeatedly to play out all the cutscenes.

The Witcher's a game that definitely deserves far more praise than criticism. The Detective quest was an ambitious one and had so many different things going on at once that it's understandable the devs should make some oversights in tying up the loose ends. Nevertheless, when it comes to game mechanics being intrusive, the game as a whole still has some flaws which come purely down to lack of refinement in the storytelling ideology. For instance, NPCs repeating a stock line like 'What is it, Witcher?' every time you're returned to the base dialogue choice menu, occasionally having to reinitiate dialogue with the same character in order to complete quests, etc... Then there's the perennial problem with english language (and particularly American accented) voice acting, where half the characters sound like they're doing a Dan LaFontaine impression. I switched to Polish speech and english subs within 10 minutes. Plus all the female characters have huge plasticky-looking tits the size of spacehoppers.

No contestation there.

If CD Projekt ever do a sequel I'll be salivating at the prospect of a game with some of those immersion breaking wrinkles ironed out.

Hell, I'd whore myself to help them fund the project.

 

[Operational]

I think it's something you slowly lose the more you play. I can still kinda get it if the game is immersive enough - BioShock would be the latest example. But the last game I truly got lost in would probably be Half-Life 2, I know it wasn't that long ago but at the time I was still somewhat FPS inexperienced (especially singleplayer). One of my gaming experiences I'll never forget is the chase across the rooftops without the HEV suit on being shot at, I wasn't thinking "this run speed is ridiculously slow" I was "holy shit move move move move!".
Of course I know now that it takes ages for you to die, even if you just stand still on the roof - that's kinda the point of this thread I guess.

I quickloaded.

I did it again. This time I took out all but one of the troopers, who ran away. There was a faint spark as I heard "Outbreak Outbreak Outbreak!" in the dude's voice, but then I shot him and noticed this time I had lost 20 hp.

I quickloaded.

It got to the point where I was trying to work out the best way to position the grenades so that it would kill all three of them at once, and was quickloading literally every 5 seconds to work it out. Eventually I got fed up with it and just accepted the 10hp drop and continued on, but it felt like I had lost something.

To be blunt: that's ****ing ridiculous. Okay I used to reload if I ended up on under half health, but I realised that it wasn't as fun as pushing on for as long as I could. Most of the time I'd make it and the game was more fun because of it.

I want to be there when he finds out the truth about Revan.

And now so do I.

 

[Kula Meenur]

Philosophical thread is philosophical

 

[Dog--]

(probably has been said, but whole thread besides first post is tl;dr)

It's true, when I was a kid it was just 'I don't want to talk to that guy, he's mean'. Now it's all like 'well if I talk to him, it'll trigger a quest, and do I really need anything in terms of rewards right now? I'll do it later when it's more convenient for me'. I miss being a stupid kid.

 

[VirusType2]

It's like, once you have learned how a magic trick is done, the magic is gone. I talked about this a few years ago here. And it's the same thing with games and movies, and even music. Once you understand how movies are made, you notice that they are acting, that this is a set, that it isn't real blood, etc.

I still enjoy all of these forms of entertainment, but I'd love to experience something really immersive like that, and that's why I can't wait for modern Virtual Reality to really get going; it might help me forget that I'm just playing a game.

 

[kineaesth]

My first real moment of actual immersion in regards to choice was when I played Deus Ex Invisible War. It's the closest thing to an RPG I've ever played, and throughout the whole game I'd been trying to please everyone and doing neutral missions. Then I got two objectives - kill him, and save him. And holy shit, that was the first real thought I've ever put into a game. And I made a choice, and immediately had to deal with the consequences as the guys I'd failed to complete the mission for sent some dudes to kill me.

Sometimes, though, in Half Life 2, like in the house with the poison zombie on the coast or underneath the bridge, I really do feel immersed - I'm panicking, I have vertigo, I'm hiding in corners and shooting at shadows - but I'm immersed in the game and the experience, not the world.

I don't think it's ever gonna happen for me, but I enjoy what I have when it happens.

 

[MattyDienhoff]

Interesting thread. I definitely fit into the 'jaded and hates it' category.

I blasted open the window, threw a grenade, tossed it through and jumped through. But I'd mis-timed the grenade, and hadn't killed two of the troopers, who attempted to riddle me with bullets. I killed them both and noticed that I was now on approximately 40 less hp then when I started.

I quickloaded.

I did it again. This time I took out all but one of the troopers, who ran away. There was a faint spark as I heard "Outbreak Outbreak Outbreak!" in the dude's voice, but then I shot him and noticed this time I had lost 20 hp.

I quickloaded.

It got to the point where I was trying to work out the best way to position the grenades so that it would kill all three of them at once, and was quickloading literally every 5 seconds to work it out. Eventually I got fed up with it and just accepted the 10hp drop and continued on, but it felt like I had lost something.

You're not the only one. I'm a compulsive restarter. If I don't do something with enough style or class or skill to satisfy the lofty standards I hold myself to, I do it again. Yes, this means quickloading after surviving a battle to do it again.

I don't like doing this, but I... can't help it.

 

[lefty]

I've played through HL1 and 2 without losing any health, unless it was because of some environmental thing that couldn't be avoided.

 

[VirusType2]

I think you find certain parts of the game that you really enjoy and reload it so you can play it out again.

It's only a problem if you restart when you don't even want to.

 

[ríomhaire]

My first real moment of actual immersion in regards to choice was when I played Deus Ex Invisible War. It's the closest thing to an RPG I've ever played, and throughout the whole game I'd been trying to please everyone and doing neutral missions. Then I got two objectives - kill him, and save him. And holy shit, that was the first real thought I've ever put into a game. And I made a choice, and immediately had to deal with the consequences as the guys I'd failed to complete the mission for sent some dudes to kill me.

It's amazing how such a generic mission with the most rediculously obvious conciquences in history is your high point.

Try Deus Ex 1. Early mission involves the apprehension of a certain character. By UNATCO policy you are never supposed to kill an unarmed man, but when you meet this character your commanding officer tells you to kill him. That's it.

You can kill him and you will be rewarded. If you refuse to do the job your CO tells you that she will kill him anyway and she will also write an unfavourable report about your actions during the mission. If you don't kill this guy you will be punished. You can try to get his side of the story, but if you keep talking to him then your CO will kill him anyway, right in front of him.

There is a third option, which no one in the game ever suggests or tells you exists. You can kill your commanding officer. Anyone who just plays without thinking will only see two options when there are really three and each option will affect your rewards for the mission and the attitude of certain characters to you. That's how it should be done, not some silly do the evil/good option or do the job for faction A/B.

 

[Absinthe]

I remember taking out Navarre and thinking it would bug out the game. Then Alex piped in and asked what the **** I was doing, and I was like "Holy shit!".

Good times.

 

[kineaesth]

That's very true, riomhaire. I wasn't suggesting that it was a sublime moment in gaming, but, for me, as the first storyline/choice driven game that I'd ever played, that decision was pretty intense.

 

[Kyorisu]

There is a third option, which no one in the game ever suggests or tells you exists. You can kill your commanding officer

Well kill the annoying bitch wasn't a dialogue option but it made perfect sense to me.

 

[Saturos]

But before long I was cursing the level design, the lack of originality - I was looking for flaws, I wasn't playing the game. And I feel tired. I feel tired of being this jaded and cynical and old.

Been there many, many times. Any new game I play totally enthralls me at first, but then as I get used to the setting, graphics, and gameplay, I start looking for flaws. The main issues I usually notice and point out first are graphical bugs. This happens to me alot with FPSs. Unless gameplay is horridly broken, I'm pretty easy to please there. Sound not so much either, as I still play the Resident Evil games from time to time. Evidence that bad dialogue and voice acting doesn't bother me too much.

Being able to see the framework behind the world sucks.

Ever since I started to learn how games work and how they are made several years ago, I've been thinking more practically like a programmer and less like an awe-induced gamer. I should've never swallowed that red pill dammit.

EDIT> Metal Slug is one of my favorite series of all time. I'll never get bored with MS Anthology no matter what.

 

[Jintor]

Lol that's true. I swear it's because Metal Slug is just about, you know, fun. **** story design, SHOOT CRAP TO ROCKING MUSIC

Also, screw you Riom, I have the urge to reinstall Deus Ex. You bastard.

Ok, I'll trade you one. In the section before you transmit the signal at the former NSF base, now filled with UNATCO dudes, normally Simmons contacts all the dudes after you do whatever it is you do at the communications deck, and they all turn on you. If you kill all the UNATCO guys without getting noticed, Simmons will attempt to contact them, find out that they're all dead, and get really ****ing pissed.

Now that was awesome to find out.

 

[ríomhaire]

Lol that's true. I swear it's because Metal Slug is just about, you know, fun. **** story design, SHOOT CRAP TO ROCKING MUSIC

Also, screw you Riom, I have the urge to reinstall Deus Ex. You bastard.

Ok, I'll trade you one. In the section before you transmit the signal at the former NSF base, now filled with UNATCO dudes, normally Simmons contacts all the dudes after you do whatever it is you do at the communications deck, and they all turn on you. If you kill all the UNATCO guys without getting noticed, Simmons will attempt to contact them, find out that they're all dead, and get really ****ing pissed.

Now that was awesome to find out.

Holy crap I never knew that. That's damn awesome. I actually always tried never to kill any of them though, even after they turn hostile.

 

[kineaesth]

On the topic of Deus Ex, I'm stuck on the training level.

*sucks*

 

[Warbie]

I don't like doing this, but I... can't help it.

This is why quicksaving/loading is the devil and should have no place in a fps!

Quicksaving only teaches you to play with hindsight, not improve your skills. Imagine Golden Eye with quicksaving! That alone would have taken a truly great fps and made it shite in one foul swoop.

 

[Kyorisu]

No it's a handy feature. You should have the power to use it as long as you have the power not to use it. Personally I don't quicksave all that often but I know people that do at every single corner they come across.

 

[DEATHMASTER]

I think its games with broken things; glitches, obvious unrealism, that makes you become less impressed, then you learn about the making, etc. But I think its a lot easier with some of today's games.

 

[mchammer75040]

I think its impossible for me to get immersed in a game like I did at 13 or 14, for all the reasons you guys suggested. I think in a lot of ways developers kinda shot themselves in the foot with little things that make the whole experience seem canned. For example, enemies that repeats the same line of speech 15 times..etc. while at the same time pouring ass loads of time and money into better graphics. Kinda silly when you think about it!