Japanese Developers comment on the Revolution

[OCybrManO]

Was the inclusion of a Y axis in FPS gaming raising the bar or making a new one? What about the move from static props to real world physics? How about baked lighting to real-time shadowing? The move from charging brainless goons to dynamic realistic intelligence? This is stupid. Are you saying that these things aren't enough? That they mean nothing in the long scheme of things? I'm sorry, but you're freakin' nuts if you think that these haven't shaped the future of games.

The issue of not being able to raise the bar any further is so remote that we have no reason to concern ourselves with it. Our games aren't perfect yet. We still have lots of work to do in plenty of areas. The idea that we've reached some sort of level cap that the Revolution has bypassed is ridiculous.

You're missing the point. For over two decades we have been using, essentially, the same control method for almost every single game. What was fine for Pong or Pitfall isn't necessarily the best control method possible... far from it. You keep trying to beat home this point that the physics and graphics aren't maxed out yet as some twisted sort argument for not advancing control schemes. It's bad logic. It's completely irrelevant. The fact is that a 2D control scheme is not ideal for 3D games. It doesn't matter how realistic you can make the graphics and physics if you're still trying to control characters with analog sticks and buttons. You have to advance the various aspects of gaming together for the best experience. When games were in 2D with simplistic graphics, the controllers were plenty to do just about everything the hardware could manage. Then, for more than a decade after the move to 3D, control schemes stagnated. There are only so many things you can do with a stick and a button. The further we go off into hyper-realistic 3D games... the less effective the current control paradigm becomes. When games approach perfect visual realism... input is expected to be realistic and natural as well... because you just can't get the kind of accurate, complex, realistic commands without covering the controller in sticks and buttons, growing extra appendages, and learning how to operate all of them in an awkward, arbitrary manner to produce the outcome you want. The Revolution's controller isn't perfect, but it's definately a step in the right direction. It's a step the entire industry needs to take seriously... because the jump from 2D control to 3D control could have an influence on gameplay equal to or greater than the jump from 2D graphics to 3D graphics. It's a natural progression. Resisting innovation hurts the industry in the long run. It's going to have to happen sooner or later and, IMO, sooner is better.

 

[Warbie]

Some choice snippets from this months Edge:


'The first thing that doesn't need explaining is the design. The TV-remote-control looks are a shock, but the universal approachability that this familiarity brings is instantly apparent. Compared to the trident prongs of an N64 pad or the button overload of a Dualshock, this is simplicity itself. Unthreatening and uncomplicated, it begs to be picked up. And when it is, it's almost impossible to put down. Light and comfortable, your index finger settles snugly into the crook in the underside, poising your thumb neatly over the main action button. There's a soft, rubbery finish on both these surfaces meaning that although the handset looks hard, sharp-edged and slippery, the sensation of holding it is effortless - just grippy enough that you can almost entirely relax your hold. And then you point at a television and start to laugh.'

....

'The simplest demo is a two player block-shooting game. A red reticle for you, a blue reticle for him. Point and squirt. This should not be amusing. Even the technology doesn't impress: although the Revolution's principles are rather different, anyone who's ever played Point Blank has pointed something at a screen and made shapes go pop. But that something is the difference. Novelty peripherals have always felt like faff - cables and calibration getting in the way of your fun. This controller makes you feel like a magician, becoming so settled in your hand there might as well be nothing there. You think it and it happens. And as a consequence, within seconds everyone has forgotten this is a tech demo. Instead the focus becomes the score and the bugeoning grudge matches that develop as you toss the controller from person to person. And by then everyone is laughing'

....

'But while the Revolution controller's ability to act like a laser pointer - a giant, invisible stylus that turns your tv into a big DS - is accessible, immediate fun, its full spacial potential is rather more sobering. As well as acting like a pointer, the Revolution can also sense depth (as you move the controller towards and away from the screen) and angle (as you tilt the controller left and right). It makes it instantly apparent how much of a cheap fudge the 3d control of the last two generations has been. This is real space, and stopping to think about it starts to tie your brain in knots'


It then goes on about the biplane demo, which demonstrates full 3d control .... 'controlling it is light, instinctive and precise. And it makes you laugh, again. The controller isn't a clumsy compromise: it's fast and sensitive' etc etc

....

'No matter how hard you try and concentrate your attention on the actual hardware in your hand, it slips off it on to what's happening on the screen. It may have surprised everyone with its looks, but Nintendo's intention was to design a controller that turned invisible as soon as it slips into your hand, and - so far, that's exactly what it's done.

....

Out comes the analogue stickdd-on, or nunchuck, controller, which is, 'comfortable and adds dizzyingly to the potential control configurations that the Revolution will offer. It doesn't just replicate twin-stick movement, although it does that neatly enough: that secondstick can now sense distance and tilt' (I didn't know this )

'Movement maps will never be the same again - who knows how things like dodging, ducking and leaning could now be implemented. Aiming is also an entirely new process, bringing the speed and agility of PC FPS to the television for the first time. The thought of a first person game designed lovingly around the Revolution controller as Metroid was around the GameCube's is dazzling' (they talk about the Metroid Prime demo for a bit, which sounds very neat)

....

'everyone, it should be said, is still laughing .... and whooping and gasping and hooting'


There's plenty more to the article, including some detailed and labelled shots of the controller and Nintendo's reason for going down this route (very interesting btw). It really is worth buying this months issue for alone (the DVD is good too)

 

[Maxi]

How can something that exists today, be next generation?

 

[The Mullinator]

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6136453.html

Summary: Simultaneous worldwide release, released sometime after March 2006, "It [the Revolution] would be a complete failure if we didn't sell more units than the Nintendo GameCube," said Iwata.

 

[Absinthe]

You're missing the point. For over two decades we have been using, essentially, the same control method for almost every single game. What was fine for Pong or Pitfall isn't necessarily the best control method possible... far from it. You keep trying to beat home this point that the physics and graphics aren't maxed out yet as some twisted sort argument for not advancing control schemes. It's bad logic. It's completely irrelevant.

I didn't bother reading the rest of your post after this.

It is relevant when some people try to make the case that this new control scheme will, on the whole, make games more fun to play. I thought that was obvious from reading the last few pages. And I believe I also stated that I'm perfectly content with current controllers and I'm more concerned with content.

Would I welcome a new change in control? Sure. Just not Nintendo's. I don't see how it's much of a revolution when it advances in one aspect of the control paradigm while scaling back in others. That smells like a trade-off or a compromise that doesn't do me a whole lot of good.

 

[oldagerocker]

I'm always losing the remote control... so if i get a revolution, im pretty ****ed :E

 

[The Mullinator]

Would I welcome a new change in control? Sure. Just not Nintendo's. I don't see how it's much of a revolution when it advances in one aspect of the control paradigm while scaling back in others. That smells like a trade-off or a compromise that doesn't do me a whole lot of good.

So... You want a new controller but just not from Nintendo? Tell me what is so wrong with Nintendo?

As for the trade off? Well like it has been said many times already, you can use the controller just like any current ones. So tell me again about this trade off?

 

[Warbie]

I don't see how it's much of a revolution when it advances in one aspect of the control paradigm while scaling back in others.

How do you see the controller as scaling down?

If you didn't read my last post, check it out. I'd hate to type all that out for nobody to notice.

//edit - there's always the option to plug GC pads into the Revolution for games that require more standard control/more buttons.

 

[Absinthe]

So... You want a new controller but just not from Nintendo? Tell me what is so wrong with Nintendo?

Way to misread me. I don't like their design. I hold no grudge against Nintendo.

As for the trade off? Well like it has been said many times already, you can use the controller just like any current ones. So tell me again about this trade off?

Less buttons? Hello? An addition of some strange wand that either gets relatively standard implementation in the games (which I don't like) or it's useless.

"Less is more" doesn't really make sense to me.

//edit - there's always the option to plug GC pads into the Revolution for games require more standard controls.

Awesome. So now I can fork out more dough for extra peripherals in order to play a game or at the least play it how I want to.

And I read what you posted, but it didn't really convince me. It talks about the simplicity and familiarity of the controller as if it's a good thing, which I disagree with. I don't want to play with a remote. That sounds horrendous to me. It also speaks about the tremendous potential it has without detailing exactly what that might be. And while they may say it fits like a glove and plays like a dream, that's kind of meaningless to me because obviously I have not had the opportunity to play with it and am only going off what I've seen/heard and forming my opinions from that.

 

[The Mullinator]

Way to misread me. I don't like their design. I hold no grudge against Nintendo.

So your bashing a design that you have never tried?

Less buttons? Hello? An addition of some strange wand that either gets relatively standard implementation in the games (which I don't like) or it's useless.

"Less is more" doesn't really make sense to me.

*sigh* havn't you heard about how the remote can be plugged into an expansion slot that will make it function like a regular controller? The main purpose of this it sounds is to make older games playable in the same fashion as you could when they were first released. That will mean adding more buttons.

Awesome. So now I can fork out more dough for extra peripherals in order to play a game or at the least play it how I want to.

Considering the fact that it looks like it will be the cheapest system with the most games at launch date, with a free internet system I would have to say it isn't so bad at all. Then you consider the stupid extra money people seem to be willing to pay Microsoft for things like new Halo maps and it really doesn't sound all that bad to me.

And I read what you posted, but it didn't really convince me. It talks about the simplicity and familiarity of the controller as if it's a good thing, which I disagree with. I don't want to play with a remote. That sounds horrendous to me. It also speaks about the tremendous potential it has without detailing exactly what that might be. And while they may say it fits like a glove and plays like a dream, that's kind of meaningless to me because obviously I have not had the opportunity to play with it and am only going off what I've seen/heard and forming my opinions from that.

So you hear all these good things and then your forming the opinion that it is a bad? Sorry but you sound like the eternal pessimist, at least when it comes to Nintendo.

 

[Absinthe]

So your bashing a design that you have never tried?

And you're praising it? Opinions and assholes is how the saying goes.

*sigh* havn't you heard about how the remote can be plugged into an expansion slot that will make it function like a regular controller? The main purpose of this it sounds is to make older games playable in the same fashion as you could when they were first released. That will mean adding more buttons.

Extra peripherals. Moolah. I see how this is working out just nicely.

Considering the fact that it looks like it will be the cheapest system with the most games at launch date, with a free internet system I would have to say it isn't so bad at all. Then you consider the stupid extra money people seem to be willing to pay Microsoft for things like new Halo maps and it really doesn't sound all that bad to me.

Halo maps are essentially bonus content. You can play Halo 2 just fine without them. When I start requiring a new controller for an optimal playing experience, that blows hard.

So you hear all these good things and then your forming the opinion that it is a bad? Sorry but you sound like the eternal pessimist, at least when it comes to Nintendo.

Good for me. I'm not exactly a huge fan of Nintendo any more. Haven't been for a while.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Fact is the Nintendo controller can do everything the others can.

But it can also do this new thing that has crazy potential.

So, basically it's twice as good, whereas the other two systems are the same as always.

Of course, the system will ALSO have the improved graphics and whatnot. I really do not see the problem here.

 

[The Mullinator]

And you're praising it? Opinions and assholes is how the saying goes.

I'm praising Nintendo for trying something new. Your bashing Nintendo for something you have yet to try.

Halo maps are essentially bonus content. You can play Halo 2 just fine without them. When I start requiring a new controller for an optimal playing experience, that blows hard.

I pay more money to have more fun. If a new controll scheme is more fun than using the tradition methods then why wouldn't I pay more? After all people will be willing to pay for the PS3 over the 360 for that very reason (based on their opinions of course). As for the peripherals I can't see any real way of avoiding it. Besides, I suspect the amount I will pay for peripherals still won't add up to making the Revolution cost the same as a PS3. Or as much as the 360 once you add up Live costs.

 

[Absinthe]

So I'm not allowed to think the idea seems like crap? That's absurd.

And I find Live to be a service worthy of the money put into it. New controllers for select games strikes me as wasteful.

 

[OCybrManO]

Let's take a quick comparison of the current standards (since they won't be changing anyway) and the Revolution controller:

OK. With both standard controllers you have directional input for both hands and access to eight (8) buttons... with some of said inputs conflicting with each other in terms of availability. With the revolution controller you get full 3D motion of the right hand, an analog stick in the left hand, four to six (if you can reach the bottom two) buttons, and a d-pad that is easily useable while utilizing the 3D control (unlike using the left d-pad and thumb stick at the same time)... equating to roughly the same number of accessible inputs during play... maybe minus a couple. Wow. That's a huge sacrifice. Full, natural 3D control is more than worth the loss of a couple of buttons (which is still arguable, depending on how you hold the standard controllers)... well, IMO.

 

[Absinthe]

Wow. That's a huge sacrifice.

It's easy to be sarcastic when you don't place such figures into a larger context. Perhaps it would be warranted if we were talking about a hundred buttons, but the standard number is far lower. The loss of 2-4 buttons can make a hell of a difference in that respect.

 

[The Mullinator]

So I'm not allowed to think the idea seems like crap? That's absurd.

You can think what you want. Am I not allowed to defend what I want?

And I find Live to be a service worthy of the money put into it. New controllers for select games strikes me as wasteful.

Considering there will probably be only maybe 3 (just my assumption) new peripherals in total anyone would need to buy to play all of Nintendo's lineup without making any sacrifices I would say its not so bad.

Anyway this is where opinions just differ. I consider a new controller that will make games more fun to be a worthy investment. You do not. Its as simple as that.

 

[Absinthe]

You can think what you want. Am I not allowed to defend what I want?

And am I not allowed to criticize?

...Well, this is getting pointless. :|

Aye, all shall be cleared up on release day.

 

[OCybrManO]

The loss of 2-4 buttons can make a hell of a difference in that respect.

The loss is a direct physical loss in the raw number of inputs... but the point I was making was that the way the controller is designed lets you use more of the available buttons effectively. For example, how many games use both the left analog stick and the left d-pad at the same time? I've only come across a few, at most. Usually, they give you the option of using either one for the same purpose. So, in the vast majority of cases, that's like four buttons going completely unused... whereas with the Revolution controller the d-pad is placed on the right side where your entire hand is acting as the right stick, freeing your thumb to use the d-pad as an extra four buttons... making up for the raw lack of 4 buttons. I averaged the two situations (50/50, unrealistically, because it's easier) to get the loss of a couple of inputs that I mentioned. See?

 

[Warbie]

And I read what you posted, but it didn't really convince me. It talks about the simplicity and familiarity of the controller as if it's a good thing, which I disagree with. I don't want to play with a remote. That sounds horrendous to me. It also speaks about the tremendous potential it has without detailing exactly what that might be. And while they may say it fits like a glove and plays like a dream, that's kind of meaningless to me because obviously I have not had the opportunity to play with it and am only going off what I've seen/heard and forming my opinions from that.

Fair enough.

I generally have faith in Edge, though, and am excited over their impressions. What struck me most wasn't what the new controller can do (which is still very impressive), but rather how often they referred to having a laugh while playing with it. It sounds like a great fun.

They talk about returning to the show after the presentation, and how surreal the experience was, 'Suddenly, the 360 looks incredibly old fashioned. Picking up a DualShock for a quick play of Rogue Galaxy seems preposterous.'

For a publication as respected as this one to have such strong views gets my attention. Not that they needed to, i've been very excited about the Revolution controller ever since it was announced - partly because Nintendo are making it, and partly because current games are starting to bore me (thank christ for the DS)


"It also speaks about the tremendous potential it has without detailing exactly what that might be."

I just couldn't be arsed to type any more. The biplane demo shows how the Revolution controller could be used in a great way, 'Tilt down and the plane swoops into a dive. Point it left and the plane and the plane starts a wide curve. Point it left and tilt it left and you produce a tight, banked curve'

Now expand on the idea, add canyons to swoop through, buildings to bomb, ships to land on, guns on the plane, enemies to dog fight with - it isn't hard to imagine how much fun this could be.

And then we have the Metroid demo - which may only show that we can play games that were traditionally more suited to the pc on a console, but anything that allows us to enjoy more games on more platforms sounds all good to me.

//edit

I also can't wait to have decent analogue movement and precise aiming in a FPS. Using a keyboard to move around is so poor these days - it's definately time to move on. The analogue add-on being able to detect distance and tilt also screams possibilities - a little tilt to duck/lean?

 

[GhostBoi]

And also, the expansions for the analogue stick and the standard controller expansion are coming with the freehand remote, you seem to think we will be paying extra for these things, when we really won't.