just a quick headcrab-related idea...

[hunter22022]

quick idea again- to make the regular zombies better, you should be able to hit objects at people with the force of the orange grav gun, this would make them a lot better, as it would give them long-range as well.

EDIT- another idea, when you are headcrab, you jump on, manage to crab them. then, a timer appears. as soon as you kill them, it counts down 30 secs. In this 30 secs, you are lying on the ground, you headcrab working away. once it hits 0, you turn into a zombie. after 5 mins, you evolve into a gonome. then 10 mins, evolve into -???

actually, that should be 15 secs, coz 30 is too long.

 

[CREMATOR666]

This is all getting too complicated, let's make it simple, fun, and easy to enjoy, shall we? Cut out the unnescessary details and retain just the core ideas. Cool features can be added on the core idea later if the mod ever gets to that phase. What's important now is the core, build that, and we're halfway there :thumbs:

 

[piggy]

the gonome idea is nice. that would also spice up the normal zombie a bit, as it would be quite sucky in the beginning, and after 2 mins or 3 kills or something like that you evolve (oooh) and hten you totally kick ass. also, the poison headdie tank, i think the poison headdies should be able to launch themselves off from the tank.

though this maybe would make it quite boring being a poison zombie...

another (maybe quite hard to make) idea could be xray or thermal vision for the humans. well to make it you could try making player entities visible through walls (think wallhack) and blurring them more as they get further away. (see garrysmod camera blurring)

 

[ríomhaire]

In HL3 there should be smart zombies who can use guns. Like the flood from Halo.

 

[subtlesnake]

I think the levels should be structured to allow the zombies to easily ambush the scientists/soldiers.

The zombies would be going on a separate route parallel to the human team, and then just as the human team reach an enclosed area (or objective), the zombies would smash through the doors nearby and attack.

To make it more exciting, ammo could be restricted or there could be specific ammo stations around the map for zombies to ambush.

 

[Dekstar]

I think the levels should be structured to allow the zombies to easily ambush the scientists/soldiers.

The zombies would be going on a separate route parallel to the human team, and then just as the human team reach an enclosed area (or objective), the zombies would smash through the doors nearby and attack.

To make it more exciting, ammo could be restricted or there could be specific ammo stations around the map for zombies to ambush.

Yeah, this is pretty much what we're aiming for. And I think that, because the humans are already at a disadvantage (As stated above), then the regular zombies shouldn't have any more strength, or it will become unbalanced. Let's put it this way:


Human Class:

Zombie Counterpart:​

Scientist.........

Regular Zombie​

Barny.........

Fast Zombie​

Soldier.........

Poison Zombie​

So basically, if you see that, it'll be more balanced. Scientists wouldn't be strong by stereotype, and neither should normal zombies, otherwise they have an advantage.

Also, Hunter, I think we decided that evolution wouldn't take place, unless it's really needed for the game to be balanced (Something I highly doubt). So basically, when you are a headcrab, and successfuly latch onto someones skull, and they can't shake you off for some reason, and they die. Then you pretty much instantly become a zombie of your headcrab type. Maybe with a little break like 5 seconds or something.

We'll also see about poison zombies launching headcrabs like in Half-life 2. I guess it could be done, but it would require a lot of teamwork, and you know what public servers are like . Also it would need to be done only in situations that it's useful, like adding something that means you can only throw the headcrabs high, and not far. That'll avoid situations like a big poison zombie tank guarding an objective and just throwing headcrabs at people.

I'll think more and get back to you all later.

EDIT:

Give us some screens next time you visit

We haven't done any work on it. I've only had the idea about 2 days .

I'll ask my concept artist meatbag if he's drawn anything though.

 

[CREMATOR666]

Give us some screens next time you visit

 

[piggy]

the poison zombie could be like a mobile spawn point,u spawn on his head. then the crab jumps off, the zombie dosent need to throw em. (but he can)

 

[Dekstar]

the poison zombie could be like a mobile spawn point,u spawn on his head. then the crab jumps off, the zombie dosent need to throw em. (but he can)

Yeah I was thinking of doing something like that, but because I am planning on the levels being quite claustraphobic and small in scale, there wouldn't be much point to spawning 3 meters ahead of where you should normally spawn.

Maybe this could be incorporated later on if the level design is made larger.

On another note: Our resident Concept artist, Meatbag (The pirate - Yaar) has drawn up a scientist, and will be sending it to me soon

 

[CREMATOR666]

claustraphobic and small scale would make throwing headcrabs hard, tho

 

[Dekstar]

claustraphobic and small scale would make throwing headcrabs hard, tho

My point exactly. Only if there was some tactical advantage involved in being able to throw headcrabs, would it be useful to code it all in.

For instance. Human players are stuckin a ventilation system, and there's a spawned poison zombie below them. It would be useful to be able to throw headcrabs there, but not anywhere else.

It's all got to be thought of before we do any severe level designs.

 

[CREMATOR666]

Make a hole large enough for throwing, then. This will have to be collaboratd with the level designer very closely, tho. Else, just make maps larger!!!!

 

[Dekstar]

Make a hole large enough for throwing, then. This will have to be collaborated with the level designer very closely, tho. Else, just make maps larger!!!!

Well, at the moment I'm sticking with the Black Mesa theme for the mod, and that means claustraphobia abound. Half the original game involved crawling through vents of some kind.

Also, it all just means more coding, and in the end, I doubt there would be many places that it could be used with effect. Afterall, this isn't a story driven game, and so I wouldn't like to have to put a sign that says "Poison Zombies can throw headcrabs up here" everywhere. Also, if I were map designer (I'm not, but if I was), I would not have many places, if any, that allow poison zombies to throw headcrabs up into vents or anything. It's just too much trouble on the other people making the game, and wouldn't add enough to gameplay.

 

[piggy]

yes but without being able to throw headdies everywhere, wouldnt it be quite lame playing as a poison zombie?

 

[Dekstar]

yes but without being able to throw headdies everywhere, wouldnt it be quite lame playing as a poison zombie?

Nah because you're built like a tank, and can deal some serious damage.

Also nothing will be exactly the same as in half-life 2. For gameplays sake, Poison zombies will be a little faster (If they are really slow when we test it), and stuff. And I'm thinking of giving each zombie a special power. Like infra-red vision and the ability to see through some walls.

I already have what the fast zombies will see like down (I think it looks pretty cool, personally), and so I was thinking of perhaps a glow round everyhing that emits radiation (Red glows for heat, yellow for light, et cetera) so no zombie, like humans, will be without their uses.

Edit: Now I'm here, I might aswell make yet another table

Zombie Type

Zombie Speciality​

Normal.......

Can see in the dark. Infra-green vision​

Fast.......

Sees in black and white, yet can see partially through walls​

Poison.......

Senses anything that emits radiation, including heat and light radiation.​

 

[Angry Lawyer]

Zombies are blind - as far as I can see, they're combining sound and smell.

Maybe a pheromone view, which allows you to see the tracks of players, as you can 'smell' them? When a player takes damage, or runs for a long time, they let off more smells (sweat/blood), and leave a brighter trail.

And make it so that the standard Zombie has the oppertunity to become a Gonome after a number of kills/certain time alive. Being that Gonomes are a combination of the best features of all the other zombies, it should have some challenge to become one.
Or give bonus points, based on what kind of Zombie you are? Classic Zombies get more points per kill, because they're naff.
Or, as the standard Zombie, and the Gonome, are the only ones with chest-mouths, make it so they can heal through eating corpses.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[Dekstar]

Zombies are blind - as far as I can see, they're combining sound and smell.

Maybe a pheromone view, which allows you to see the tracks of players, as you can 'smell' them? When a player takes damage, or runs for a long time, they let off more smells (sweat/blood), and leave a brighter trail.

And make it so that the standard Zombie has the oppertunity to become a Gonome after a number of kills/certain time alive. Being that Gonomes are a combination of the best features of all the other zombies, it should have some challenge to become one.
Or give bonus points, based on what kind of Zombie you are? Classic Zombies get more points per kill, because they're naff.
Or, as the standard Zombie, and the Gonome, are the only ones with chest-mouths, make it so they can heal through eating corpses.

-Angry Lawyer

good point, but that smell/sound would be hell to implement, so I'm just trying to do the things that are possible . anyway, I don't know what these Gonomes are, so could someone point me in the direction of a picture or something so I can refresh my memory of what they are?

And besides, If you read the posts above, scientists are 'naff' too, but they still must be in there. Admitted, chest mouths that heal the zombie when they attack you is a clever idea, and can tie in with the scientists ability to heal other players too. But whenever there's someone saying "You need to balance humans, since it's quite obviously a surival game, and survival games are stupid when both sides are exactly even", there's another person going "You really should give so and so something like [Insert power here], so it's more balanced." All the balancing comes down to Playtesting in the end, and I'd rather have all the core components in the game and tested before I add anything else, than have an infinitely long list, and no beta to test them on.

Thanks for your input Angry Lawyer, you got a lot of good ideas.
-Dekstar

 

[Angry Lawyer]

Smell/Sound is quite easy. Just make the players produce little entities every so often, that only the zombies can see. You could chain them together with a beam effect, too. And add in the think cycles, that after a number of cycles they simply expire. It's probably more simple than sticking in a number of things you're probably thinking of.

This is a Gonome.

Big, angry, evolved version of the classic zombie that could probably outdo all the standard Zombie types.

You're welcome, Dekstar.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[Dekstar]

Smell/Sound is quite easy. Just make the players produce little entities every so often, that only the zombies can see. You could chain them together with a beam effect, too. And add in the think cycles, that after a number of cycles they simply expire. It's probably more simple than sticking in a number of things you're probably thinking of.

This is a Gonome.

Big, angry, evolved version of the classic zombie that could probably outdo all the standard Zombie types.

You're welcome, Dekstar.

-Angry Lawyer

Hmm, yeah, well obviously you know more about coding for stuff like Half-life 2 than I do. Hell, I wouldn't mind hiring you.

And the gonome, I haven't seen one of... Oh, wait.. Yes I have. Hmm, Well Personally, and this is just me, I wouldn't like to include any evolution whatsoever in this mod (Except, perhaps, in another game mode similar to AvP) and so I wouldn't like it in, but we'll see.
Also, have you played the game "Zombie Panic"? It's a mod for Half-life 1, and I'm basically expanding on that idea, and adding elements of AvP into it too. And what they did was give the zombies the ability to see in the dark by making all the survivors glow red, which is something I would like to do for the poison zombie, since it's... Well, poison enhanced.

Anyway that's my rambling over. I have to get on with some concept sketching.

 

[Angry Lawyer]

Never played Zombie Panic, but I've played similar games. I still think scent trails are viable, just because they give the Zombies such a coolness factor.

I'd help you do the mod, but I'm kinda busy with my own. When you do find a coder, however, I'm willing to give advice when he gets stuck.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[Dekstar]

Never played Zombie Panic, but I've played similar games. I still think scent trails are viable, just because they give the Zombies such a coolness factor.

I'd help you do the mod, but I'm kinda busy with my own. When you do find a coder, however, I'm willing to give advice when he gets stuck.

-Angry Lawyer

Zombie panic, for me, is the best Half-life Zombie-type mod out there, I really like playing it. Not many others play it though A shame.

 

[hunter22022]

hmm, i think that the 15 second rule after you headcrab someone is good, because in HL2 when someone gets headcrabbed, they dont instantly become a zombie do they?

 

[Dekstar]

hmm, i think that the 15 second rule after you headcrab someone is good, because in HL2 when someone gets headcrabbed, they dont instantly become a zombie do they?

In HL2 you don't see anyone get headcrabbed first hand . This is a good thing though, as it leaves for some pretty nifty poetic lisence. For instance, Zombies have that big gaping hole in their chest, but you can't actively deform people into another model (To my understanding. Also, it would be nifty if when the person died with a headcrab on, they went into ragdol, but instead of switching instantly to another model, we could do a number of things:

firstly I'm pretty sure it's possible to sort of crete some snazzy green glow effects that surround the dead player ragdol, and then, by some coding or something, make the ragdol spasm, to indicate a hostile takeover, and then produce some random gibs, and switch model inbetween. Nothing hard.

Or we could do the other way, which would just be to produce lots of gibs and sound effects, which would confuse the watcher, and switch the model inbetween. It'll all come down to aesthetics in the end.

Anyway, to put an end to my rambling, the 15 second rule can be more, or less, or even variable. The server could set it, which would be best.

 

[pr0nking]

no.....

 

[Angry Lawyer]

No...what? That's kinda vague.

Spasming ragdolls can be done quite easily, I think. Just makie sure it's client-side, otherwise the game will crawl to a halt.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[RaBiD WeAzEL]

Everything sounds great, dekstar, you're doing a great job of keeping the plans in control.

The only thing that I can think of right now is that, it seems as if the board members are concentrating maybe a little too much on headcrabs and zombies, as it is, things sound pretty nice for those critters.

Maybe we should concentrate a little more on human characters.

Dekstar already mentioned much ealier, some ideas about the human characters and their ideas, and I agree w/ the Scientist, Barney, Soldier approatch, and as he said,

"Scientist...........................
Can open all doors using eye scanner
Barny...............................
Can use Light and some heavy weaponry
OP4 Soldier.......................
Can use all heavy weaponry, and explosives"

This doesn't cover weaponry for scientists, which, I'm assuming that they'd have something but they'd act more like navigators and 'locksmiths'. Could they maybe have the map to... the map? And then, not a crowbar, but some other interesting melee tool, as Gordon has already claimed the crowbar his.

Barney, since he's just a weaker version of the soldier, should be faster moving than the soldier, and as the soldier is weighed down by weaponry, he'd be slower anyway (If this hasn't already been incorporated, anyway). I also think that barney may be able to have access to security crates and weapon storage, since he's a security guard.

My idea for the soldier would be of course, since he's got heavier weaponry that he'd be slower, but also, nightvision might work well with him. Which is all I'd really need to add about the soldier, sounds like everything's pretty cool.

Here's one more idea:

Human characters should be able to throw things? To block the way of zombies or headcrabs, so that the humans may have time to run if needed.

Scientists would only be able to throw small objects; Security guard, medium size; soldiers, large size.

And also, something to discuss and/or keep in mind... Is health ratio between the different human characters.

Whether it'd be better to have mor health for certain charcters, or ability to have armor, etc.

Good luck, and I'll post again later if I have anymore ideas.

 

[H47tr!ck]

u actually do see someone get headcrabed in half life 2 (the first time those bombshells with head crabs in them land around you, some guy gets it right in the face behind a fence.)

i also think it would be a good idea if head crabs could climb up and run on walls and ceilings. i know it would take away from the strictly half-life 2 theme but i think it would realy add to the fun of being a crab and the fear of being a human.

edit: oh yea, maybe you could get the skin for the gonome from the guy thats making black mesa source (the remake of hl1 in source with hl2 textures, models, etc) http://www.blackmesasource.com/

 

[CREMATOR666]

Climb on walls and ceilings?!!!! That's too AVP

 

[hunter22022]

just keep the beta or alpha simple, and introduce the more complex things in later releses and it should go fine

 

[subtlesnake]

If the scientists are just for using the scanners/overriding security then why would anyone want to be a scientist? What happens if the scientist wanders off or doesn't co-operate?

 

[Danimal]

Zombie panic, for me, is the best Half-life Zombie-type mod out there, I really like playing it. Not many others play it though A shame.

You should play Brain Bread... I used to play ZP until BB pwned it with a large, blood covered stick.

 

[piggy]

also, on the sound/smell vision, dont forget small entities created at the feet of everything that walks. the muzzeflashes could be visible too.

also try dark blue background, white little puffs for sound and orangy-yellowish for smell.

thats my humble opinion at least.

EDIT- climbing on walls... let the leapers do that, normal crabs can eventually evolve to gonomes, and poison headdies can drop the hp to 1 hp.

this will create some nice twists to the game. all IMO

 

[Asuka]

Sounds very interesting.

 

[Dekstar]

Everything sounds great, dekstar, you're doing a great job of keeping the plans in control.

The only thing that I can think of right now is that, it seems as if the board members are concentrating maybe a little too much on headcrabs and zombies, as it is, things sound pretty nice for those critters.

Maybe we should concentrate a little more on human characters.

"Scientist...........................
Can open all doors using eye scanner
Barny...............................
Can use Light and some heavy weaponry
OP4 Soldier.......................
Can use all heavy weaponry, and explosives"

This doesn't cover weaponry for scientists, which, I'm assuming that they'd have something but they'd act more like navigators and 'locksmiths'. Could they maybe have the map to... the map? And then, not a crowbar, but some other interesting melee tool, as Gordon has already claimed the crowbar his.

Yeah I totally agree with this, but I think that people really would prefer to play something totally different, like a headcrab in a mod, and they just think as the human characters as something the headcrabs can eat. And I was thinking for... Litterally Minutes, about a melee weapon for the scientist, but unfortunately I couldn't think of one. This is also a pretty much community based mod, and so any decent ideas could be just thrown in there, As long as, as Hunter said, the Alpha is pretty simple. Also thats a good idea to give the scientist the map. Nice one.

And H47tr!ck, I knew I had missed a lot of things in Half-life 2 , and that must have been one. Could you please approximate the time before it leaps out at you? And yeah, the ragdols spasming will be pretty much clientside. No point in having it server side.

CREMATOR666, I was thinking that not total cieling domination, just little bursts. That's to traverse long gaps and such. This also ties in with what piggy said about Leapers only going on walls, I really should start explaining myself further, since that's what I meant originially ^_^.

Subtlesnake - The same thing that would happen if there were no scientists in the game. When We start designing levels, it would be discussed that the map maker MUST make three or more routes that require the different skills, with one or more routes that require no skills. Think of it as a fork in a road, if you have a one on one in a server, then you can choose to use the ability that was randomly given to you, or you can go through a place that doesn't require your special skill. But I was pretty much planning on adding a bias to the randomiser on one vs one servers, so you pretty much wouldn't be a scientist.

Also, Players will be able to move furniture around to give them a tactical advantage in game, such as blocking doors and such. Also, the physics won't be "bouncy", unless we really need them to be for the game to run. And even then we can script it in a certain way (Think of a sofa by a door, that when you press E on it, it slides infront of the door to block it).

Well, I hope that answers all your questions. now I'm off to download Brain Bread
-Dekstar

 

[CREMATOR666]

Okey, wish I could come up with something but I'm just Brain Bread now (ok, that was pun )

 

[Mr_Fofo]

Sounds really cool, but how could you make it so fast headcrab zombies could climb walls?

 

[Dekstar]

Sounds really cool, but how could you make it so fast headcrab zombies could climb walls?

Well Fast zombies in half-life 2 ran up the drainpipes because they were scripted to do so. I guess really it's just some sort of ladder entity, but made so only fast zombies could climb them. They already have their own Ladder climbing animation anyway, so there's no work except finding out what the entity is.

 

[Angry Lawyer]

Doesn't even require special entities, although it's kinda difficult to code.

Although, the Fast Zombies don't actually climb walls, but drainpipes. It'd probably be better if you could cause them to gain momentum by bouncing off of walls, or something.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[cabbs]

im just building upon the climbing entity idea here..

just give the ladder properties to the various sticky-out bits present in the level (girders, pipes, cables, fences etc), and only allow fast zombies to use them. Dont know if it would work on a horizontal 'ladder' on the ceiling, but you could jump up there and wait to ambush someone.

 

[Angry Lawyer]

Depends on what kind of ladder entity you base it on. If you base it on the retro HL1 ladder thing, it works in all directions. I'm not sure about the HL2 ladder entity though.

All HL1's ladder did was set the movetype to 'Fly' while inside the area.

-Angry Lawyer