Kojima Disappointed With Metal Gear Solid 4

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This isn't a bad thing, even Valve does this. Every good developer always sees how much better their game really is. For me the surprising piece is him saying they reach the CELL limit and admitting its problems.

Samon said:
Japanese translations or no, Kojima is the one who feels the need to put players through 20 minutes of introductory sequences with random, trivial gameplay sprinkled inbetween. MGS3 really took the biscuit here. Sure, you can skip it, but you won't get the story; you get the full impact of events to come.

That is absolutely shite game design and narrative.
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That is 100% opinion. I know dozens of people who LOVE everything you just said was bad. Metal Gear Games are in the same ball game as Valve games. I love my 20 min cut scenes and the gameplay is absolutely great. If it wasn't millions wouldn't be buying it.
 
Reaching the Cell limit is bullshit and just as true as that PS2 games reached the capacity of that console in 2002.
 
they still have to learn how to use it...

-dodo
 
Personally I thought MGS3 balanced gameplay and story a lot better than MGS2 did. The only cutscenes I remember being excessively long are the intro and ending, which really is kind of expected.

In any case, anyone who complains about any MGS's cutscenes being too long should play the PS2 RPG "Xenosaga". I'm pretty sure that in that game, 30+ minutes pass between you hitting "New Game" and having to pick up the controller for the first time, and it only gets worse from there. Hell, at a few points the developers felt they had to add save points in the middle of cutscenes.
 
Bad^Hat said:
Has to be said - and in a stealth game, no less.

Or as I prefer to call it, a top-down hide-and-seek sim.
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Be fair, MGS3 with its slow-walking mechanic, camouflauge and expansive environments finally made Metal Gear properly stealthy.

I love MGS a lot, for the quality of the gameplay and for the brilliant flashes of inspiration - like cardboard boxes, and the one hour End sniper duel - but the plot's always been ridiculous, and, more than that, ridiculously told.
 
Asuka said:
That is 100% opinion. I know dozens of people who LOVE everything you just said was bad. Metal Gear Games are in the same ball game as Valve games. I love my 20 min cut scenes and the gameplay is absolutely great. If it wasn't millions wouldn't be buying it.
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Doesn't matter how many people "love" it; it's still completely sloppy and poor design.
 
Samon said:
Doesn't matter how many people "love" it; it's still completely sloppy and poor design.
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While I mostly agree with your points, you're coming off a bit arrogant demanding that your opinion be taken as fact. You believe that it's sloppy and poorly designed, others don't. Others prefer to have their story told to them in well presented/directed cut scenes interspersed between bouts of great gameplay. It isn't integrated nearly as fluidly integrated as HL or even GTA, but that's not what the game is going for. The games have a finely tuned sense of pacing and style that many people prefer. It isn't definitively "poor".

While I don't think they need to change much in terms of their overall presentation of the story, the writing is truly awful. The storyline frequently and unnecessarily comes up with outrageous conceits that are are completely extraneous to the plot and do nothing but detract from the merit and believability of the story. They spend ages on useless exposition that should and could be better conveyed through in-game developments. Kojima insists on inserting overly long, melodramatic monologues that attempt to teach his customers lessons in the middle of the game, which is by far my biggest complaint.

Despite these flaws, the quality of the gameplay and presentation values are unmatched by any other developer out there. The graphics certainly aren't disappointing and while the scope of the game may be somewhat reeled in from its original vision, I doubt it will be even remotely apparent to anyone playing the game.
 
Oh I wasn't trying to state my opinion as fact. It's just my firm belief in general that there really shouldn't be such a big gap between story and gameplay, and there really is. I honestly can't see anything good in Kojima's method of narrative or storytelling. And besides despite these gaping flaws I do like the MGS games and I'm pretty disappointed I can't play 4.

KagePrototype said:
Samon say it bad, so it bad! ok? :flame:
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GOSHDARNIT EXACTLY.

But for the most part a lot of it is just plain ridiculous, I think.
 
Sulkdodds said:
Be fair, MGS3 with its slow-walking mechanic, camouflauge and expansive environments finally made Metal Gear properly stealthy.

I love MGS a lot, for the quality of the gameplay and for the brilliant flashes of inspiration - like cardboard boxes, and the one hour End sniper duel - but the plot's always been ridiculous, and, more than that, ridiculously told.
Click to expand...

I agree with you, and I agree with Samon wholely, but I think MGS just wouldn't be MGS unless it was told in this ridiculous way.
 
MGS 4 had potential to be one the best games of all times. Now it looks like that MGS4 will be ruined by absolutely ridiculous ideas like portable metal drums, porn magazines, monkies etc. also design of some characters is totally awesome (Snake, Naomi, Otacon) some looks fu**ing terrible (Sunny, Meryl).

00FA000000080359.jpg

What the f*ck is that?!

MGS game with best story and storytelling was MGS Digital Graphic Novel, not directed by Kojima and rewritten by Kris Oprisko.
 
Samon said:
Doesn't matter how many people "love" it; it's still completely sloppy and poor design.
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Ya you kind of coming off like what your saying is fact.

KagePrototype said:
Samon say it bad, so it bad! ok? :flame:
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Haha ya...

Samon said:
Oh I wasn't trying to state my opinion as fact. It's just my firm belief in general that there really shouldn't be such a big gap between story and gameplay, and there really is. I honestly can't see anything good in Kojima's method of narrative or storytelling. And besides despite these gaping flaws I do like the MGS games and I'm pretty disappointed I can't play 4.



GOSHDARNIT EXACTLY.

But for the most part a lot of it is just plain ridiculous, I think.
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Thats not poor game design if millions love that game design. See what im saying. I LOVE THAT ABOUT MGS games and like my friends wish more games where like it.
 
*stands behind Samon with crossed arms and nods*
 
*Stands behind Krynn who stands behind Samon and crosses arms and taps foot and also nods.*
 
*Stands behind GordonFreeman911 who stands behind Krynn who stands behind Samon and crosses arms and taps foor and scratches hands and also nods*
 
Samon said:
You're totally welcome to enjoy it but that's wrong. Very wrong.
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Yup, surely will. But i love how you cant give a reason to my statement. If millions are loving a gameplay type, that automatically makes it good. Simply because if it wasn't for that specific gametype MGS would be nothing. Those millions love the long cut scenes the specific gameplay features and the controls. That's what makes MGS such a unique and great game. If you want something different go look somewhere else. MGS is this and if it wasn't it wouldn't be MGS. Just like somethings that make Valve games great, like the engine and its flaws. Because of those tiny flaws i enjoy Half-Life games more then other FPS's.
 
The only reason so far why MGS4 is hyped up to be compared any other previous MGS titles is that sony fanboys think it's an ultimate exclusive title AT THIS MOMENT.

Seriously, did both MGS2 and 3 received this amount of hype compared to recent hype towards MGS4?

The question is **** no.

Anyway, that's my opinion of the night.

And yeah, it's totally gonna be a kickass game.
 
MGS has always been a Playstation title - or at least, a title most known to be on the Playstation in the same vein as Halo to the Xbox or Mario to Nintendo - and I do believe MGS2 had quite a lot of attention drawn to it. I wasn't completly aware of it back then as I wasn't as heavily into video games as I am now but I'm pretty sure it was a pretty hot up and coming title. I can't say the same for MGS3, I've not even played it or actually looked in to it.

Asuka said:
Yup, surely will. But i love how you cant give a reason to my statement. If millions are loving a gameplay type, that automatically makes it good. Simply because if it wasn't for that specific gametype MGS would be nothing. Those millions love the long cut scenes the specific gameplay features and the controls. That's what makes MGS such a unique and great game. If you want something different go look somewhere else. MGS is this and if it wasn't it wouldn't be MGS. Just like somethings that make Valve games great, like the engine and its flaws. Because of those tiny flaws i enjoy Half-Life games more then other FPS's.
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Millions of people don't like a game for one aspect of it. I enjoy Half-Life 2 but I dislike the dull combat, but I still love the game overall. A lot of people love every single part of the MGS games, where some people really enjoy the gameplay but might not like the story. I bet thousands of people like said long cut scenes and odd story lines, and in the same sence, another thousand people spread wide and far across the world probably don't enjoy those aspects of the game.

Because the game sells doesn't mean it's without it's flaws, but in the end it's all down to personal opinion.
 
"A million people" enjoy the fact that it takes you about a year to start a new game of MGS, and enjoy the stupid plot meanderings, and love it when you can't go five paces without being codec-interrupted?

Correct me if I am wrong but I didn't think that was the most popular aspect of the game.
 
*Stands behind taviow who stands behind GordonFreeman911 who stands behind Krynn who stands behind Samon and crosses arms and taps foor and scratches hands and also nods*
 
Asuka said:
Yup, surely will. But i love how you cant give a reason to my statement. If millions are loving a gameplay type, that automatically makes it good. Simply because if it wasn't for that specific gametype MGS would be nothing. Those millions love the long cut scenes the specific gameplay features and the controls. That's what makes MGS such a unique and great game. If you want something different go look somewhere else. MGS is this and if it wasn't it wouldn't be MGS. Just like somethings that make Valve games great, like the engine and its flaws. Because of those tiny flaws i enjoy Half-Life games more then other FPS's.
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You're making sweeping generalisations based on absolutely nothing. Those millions each have their own likes and dislikes about the game and I could wager a significant amount of them would find the 20 minute, yawn inducing cutscenes that go nowhere before starting the game completely boring. The fans of MGS probably love them but the casual gamer - the guys who rake in the most sales - probably won't sit and watch them. They will skip them and just play. And you know, that's fine too but because of Kojima's inability to construct a proper narrative and fuse it with the game design they are missing out on the majority of the story.

Not good game design.
 
Although millions of people may like something I don't think that alone can give it merit for being good. Such is the same with alot of popular things in modern society. They're popular, doesn't mean they're good.

This goes in line with my greater theory of popularity

most people are idiots
popularity is governed by the opinions of most people
therefore popular things are probably stupid :p
 
I like how MGS4 has become so controversial, I haven't seen so many haters since Halo III launched, to each its own, I personally LOVE Metal Gear, I love its story telling, graphics, gameplay and I love the LOOONG cut-scenes, oh and I even love its silly humor. Is the game perfect? hell no!
but for those who love the MGS series it doesn't get any better than this, this is the reason many people bought PS3s and many more will be bought next month. I pre-ordered the LE and can't wait to play it come June 12th, in the mean time I'll be playing MGS Online BETA see you online...
 
I don't think any of the gameplay elements that we're talking about can be defined as inherently "good" or "bad." Personally, I love the long cutscenes, the crazy story, and the codec conversations (believe it or not.) So to me, all of these things are good. To others such as Samon, these things are bad. I don't feel that there is a "major gap" between gameplay and story, but others will disagree. MGS offers a unique experience, which is a lot more than I can say for most games, so I think it's a little foolish to claim it is inherently flawed or "bad."
 
General MGS structure:

Intro with talking heads
Cutscenes with talking heads briefly interspersed with short stints of gameplay (to keep the player awake)
Moar talking heads in the outro
Ending titles (surprisingly, without talking heads)
 
Mikael, are you sure you aren't thinking of Fallout 1?
 
Mikael Grizzly said:
General MGS structure:

Intro with talking heads
Cutscenes with talking heads briefly interspersed with short stints of gameplay (to keep the player awake)
Moar talking heads in the outro
Ending titles (surprisingly, without talking heads)
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And yet it is one of the most successful game series' around. Through you may not like how the games play out, I and millions of others are very much awaiting MGS4.
 
MGS is a bandwagon game. Nobody likes playing it, but everyone says they do.
 
: >

nah, I do love 3 of his songs so much, but I just can't get into the rest - at all.


1 purple haze
2 along the watchtower
3 voodoo child
 
MGS fans and MGS haters, get ready, FIGHT!

Excellent!

Flawless Victory.
 
Look at all the popular anime series with protracted and ridiculous plots - MGS is no different. Some people enjoy the story telling and will happily sit through reels of dialogue before getting into the thick of things. Saying this is poor design is obviously a little silly considering how popular the series is. Personally, it isn't for me. I've skipped through most cutscnes in the series and rarely have a clue what's going other than they're the badguys and that I kick ass. The games are great fun, though, and no. 4 looks the absolute nuts :)
 
Look at all the popular anime series with protracted and ridiculous plots
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like what

*holds stiff upper lip*

Okay I can't keep a straight face :LOL: I'm sorry
 
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