Kojima Proves MGS4 is Real-Time [Video]

[DigiQ8]

simply amazing graphics, gj Kojima ^^
to download the video go there
http://www.1up.com/do/download?cId=3140656

 

[Absinthe]

Doesn't show real-time graphics so much as it demonstrates the ability to manipulate a static 3D scene.

Looks pretty though.

 

[gh0st]

it only proves that the particular demo in question is real-time rendering of a static environment...

 

[jimbo118]

awesome, it'll look great in any case, mgs never disappoints in graphics...

 

[Gargantou]

Actually, it doesn't look that great compared to what I've seen on the UE3, in this and the vid, there's always just one light-source, and the only things that casts shadows are the characters themselves and vehicles, and they self-shadow, but the "environments" shadows are all static lightmaps, and to me, that's not really that impressive.
I'd expect more from how Sony have touted the PS3 to be so fscking powerful, I'm fully sure we could easily experience such graphics on the XB360.
But I guess we'll see how the finished version looks.
I'm hoping for the shadowing to get a bit improved atleast, like multiple light sources, along with the environment being able to cast dynamic shadows, for example, in the trailer, when Snake stands by the window that's made up of all those "little stars" or however the **** I should describe it, there's absolutely no shadows cast from THEM.

Oh well, as said, I guess we'll see in the finished product.

 

[DeusExMachina]

Yeah, I don't play the MGS games for dynamic lighting and shadow casting.

 

[Gargantou]

Neither do I but now we were specifically discussing graphics.

But atleast it looks better than MGS3.

 

[dream431ca]

It certainly blew my mind...more so that I will not buy an X360 anymore..just PS3.

 

[ailevation]

How come i'm not getting a download?

EDIT: They had to take down the video.

 

[CyberPitz]

How come i'm not getting a download?

EDIT: They had to take down the video.

Figures..I went to look and check it out, and nothing was there D:

 

[Absinthe]

It certainly blew my mind...more so that I will not buy an X360 anymore..just PS3.

You're very easily swayed if all it took was a static 3D image and a moveable light.

 

[Dumb Dude]

Why is it hard for you to belive that was real-time? I mean I havn't seen the this demo, but I have seen the trailer and screenshots and I have to say it looks believable. Its not like that killzone trailer, that looked way too crazy to be real-time and of course it wasn't.

 

[Absinthe]

I'm not saying it isn't real-time. I'm quite certain it is.

All I'm saying is that it's real-time footage of a static scene and the only manipulation going on is the moving of a light source. This demonstrates absolutely nothing. I bet most PC's nearing the high-end range could do something like this without breaking a sweat. If they showed an actual functioning game, then that would be ace. But this only looks to me like a shiny little trick employed to attract the attention of those that don't know any better. It's worked, so it seems.

This is why I favor the 360. They've actually shown games as opposed to misleading tech demos.

 

[Lemonking]

um as far as I know the XB360 was powerd my Macs at E3...I could be mistaking thoe^^

 

[VictimOfScience]

This is why I favor the 360. They've actually shown games as opposed to misleading tech demos.

Well, since it is supposed to come out in about 2 months, I should hope they have shown some games running on actual hardware(I have yet to see any that truly 'wow' me yet, but first gen games rarely do on the consoles).

Sony will have no shortage of actual footage when it is this close to release as well, so comments like this are just ridiculous. They'll have accurate footage in January at CES 2006 in Las Vegs after the developers have gotten the final dev kits. Maybe wait until they are all out and on an even playing field before favoring the first-to-market.

Besides, by Sony talking about "winning the consoles wars" and showing the controversial Killzone trailer again, do you really think they will let that release with anything but the most impressive visuals that either meet or exceed the trailer's? They are aiming very high, but to show it again leads me to believe that they are 100% confident that they can get that sort of performance from their system. Video game fans should be very excited about this.

 

[Absinthe]

Sony will have no shortage of actual footage when it is this close to release as well, so comments like this are just ridiculous. They'll have accurate footage in January at CES 2006 in Las Vegs after the developers have gotten the final dev kits. Maybe wait until they are all out and on an even playing field before favoring the first-to-market.

So? A spade's a spade. Bullshit is bullshit regardless of context in time. And it just irks me that so many people buy into it.
And before I get any "that's the way of the world" home-spun wisdom or "almost everybody else does the same thing" truisms - I know that. I don't like any of it.

Besides, by Sony talking about "winning the consoles wars" and showing the controversial Killzone trailer again, do you really think they will let that release with anything but the most impressive visuals that either meet or exceed the trailer's? They are aiming very high, but to show it again leads me to believe that they are 100% confident that they can get that sort of performance from their system. Video game fans should be very excited about this.

"They even showed the intro from Final Fantasy VII in "Real Time(!!!!)," but I can't possibly be the only person who remembers they trotted out a "Real Time" dance scene from VIII when they launched the PS2 - can I? You ever see shit like that on your Playstation 2?" - Penny Arcade

I wouldn't put it past them. I'll be excited when I see a game.

 

[VictimOfScience]

So? A spade's a spade. Bullshit is bullshit regardless of context in time. And it just irks me that so many people buy into it.
And before I get any "that's the way of the world" home-spun wisdom or "almost everybody else does the same thing" truisms - I know that. I don't like any of it.

And no business sense is no business sense. Showing a conceptual trailer is a little(sarcasm) more effective than showing a horrible version of a game at an event created specifically for the mainstream(read:moronic) audience. That is amateurish and idiotic. (I am referring to the MTV 360 launch event that made PD0 look like a PS1 game). The whole purpose of a media event is to get the crowd hyped and that's not the way to do it. If you can't show something amazing running on actual hardware, the next best thing is to show a conceptualization of what you envision it to look like running on finalized hardware.

An example of good marketing by Microsoft re:360 is the name. Microsoft's thinking: "The mentally challenged masses would have though that the PS3 is better than the XBox2, so we will call it 360 so it can compete in the 'minds'(and I use that term loosely) of the general public." Of course, the name is bs, and like you say, bullsh*t is bullsh*t.

I wouldn't put it past them. I'll be excited when I see a game.

Me too!!! Oh, but you might want to hold off on getting a 360 then, unless you plan on getting both, in which cares who cares about any of this? Dev support for the next gen looks pretty similar when talking about big non-exclusive titles, so it comes down to what console-specific games you want to play. My favs will be on Sony's console once again, so that is where I will put my money, though I don't rule out a 360 purchase in the future when it comes down in price and if it has some some very cool games that look amazing!

But please don't call-out Sony for their bullsh*t marketing and not mention how many millions of bits of functionality MS have promised in their vast number of products over the years that have been cut-out or just plain don't work.

Enjoy your 360 though--its just the beginning!!! :E

 

[Absinthe]

I have to go real soon, so excuse my bullet-point post.

1.) If the best they can do is a concept, then I'd prefer not to see it at all.

2.) I don't quite see how the naming of MS' new console can be considered bullshit. It's not misleading, it's not "fake" by any meaningful definition, it's just a different name for what is essentially X-Box 2.

3.) Oh, I know MS has done their fair share of smoke and mirrors (although I'd argue less so than Sony). But this topic isn't discussing the 360. It's about MGS4 on the PS3.

4.) Now, if the PS3 really does harness the theoretical power Sony claims it does, I'll certainly check it out (assuming it has attractive titles, which practically every console has).

5.) If I sound overly cynical... well, that's just me for you. :\

 

[VictimOfScience]

1.) If the best they can do is a concept, then I'd prefer not to see it at all.

Well, I for one, would like to see the direction they are headed. Just sort of interesting and lets you know whether or not you should get overly excited for their vision. I like concept art and artists' renderings too, but I guess you don't care for that stuff too much.

2.) I don't quite see how the naming of MS' new console can be considered bullshit. It's not misleading, it's not "fake" by any meaningful definition, it's just a different name for what is essentially X-Box 2.

Hahaha. The sole purpose of the name "360" is to avoid the consumers thinking it is an earlier version that is numerically inferior to the PS3. No biggie--It's just a fact.

3.) Oh, I know MS has done their fair share of smoke and mirrors (although I'd argue less so than Sony). But this topic isn't discussing the 360. It's about MGS4 on the PS3.

A bold statement indeed, and I know 2 programmers personally that would challenge you as to this notion. And yes, MGS4 on the PS3 is going to be amazing if MGS2 for the PS2 is anything to judge by--it STILL has some of the best graphics and gameplay on that console and it was out very early in its lifecycle. So why did you bring up the 360 in the first LOL!?

4.) Now, if the PS3 really does harness the theoretical power Sony claims it does, I'll certainly check it out (assuming it has attractive titles, which practically every console has).

I know, I can't wait! :E

5.) If I sound overly cynical... well, that's just me for you. :\

Aww. :cheers:

 

[jondy]

Hahaha. The sole purpose of the name "360" is to avoid the consumers thinking it is an earlier version that is numerically inferior to the PS3. No biggie--It's just a fact.

Yes, but the name remains a name, not a fillrate figure.

 

[VictimOfScience]

Yes, but the name remains a name, not a fillrate figure.

And the rate at which its filling consumers' heads with smoke and mirrors is incalculable. Pity for you guys. ;(

 

[Absinthe]

Hahaha. The sole purpose of the name "360" is to avoid the consumers thinking it is an earlier version that is numerically inferior to the PS3. No biggie--It's just a fact.

Which... makes sense. Calling their console 360 isn't bullshit. It's to keep stupid people from thinking "OMG three is bigger than two! I'll buy a PS3!". How this entails any deception is something I don't get. Is Nintendo being a bunch of creepy bastards for not putting generational digits at the end over every console they make? No. It's a name and nothing more.

A bold statement indeed, and I know 2 programmers personally that would challenge you as to this notion. And yes, MGS4 on the PS3 is going to be amazing if MGS2 for the PS2 is anything to judge by--it STILL has some of the best graphics and gameplay on that console and it was out very early in its lifecycle. So why did you bring up the 360 in the first LOL!?

I personally thought MGS2 was an overhyped waste of time, but that's beside the point. My comment on the 360 was merely a personal aside.

 

[VictimOfScience]

Which... makes sense. Calling their console 360 isn't bullshit. It's to keep stupid people from thinking "OMG three is bigger than two! I'll buy a PS3!". How this entails any deception is something I don't get. Is Nintendo being a bunch of creepy bastards for not putting generational digits at the end over every console they make? No. It's a name and nothing more.

Look, all I am saying is that Sony has thus far been straightforward about the names of their consoles: Playstation, Playstation 2, and Playstation 3. Microsoft can't even pretend that most of their audience aren't rockheads because they have to add the requisite "3" into their name and also give it a purpose, like the 360 degrees of a perfect circle or some such. Boy would it have been stupid to call it the XBox 3--where's the 2nd one? Would anyone really have noticed?

Nintendo have gone their own route the whole time, which has always been terrific in my book. They don't even try to compete with the two money-grubbing console giants and they do very well for themselves. Microsoft obviously wasn't as confident in their new console because they had to have something on par with Sony's 3rd machine and call it as such instead of the XBox Revolution or something.

I personally thought MGS2 was an overhyped waste of time, but that's beside the point.

Wow. You're in a very serious minority. I hope your standards for everything in life aren't that high!

My comment on the 360 was merely a personal aside.

'Nuff said.

ON-TOPIC: If, like it says, everything in that video is real game assets, then I am pretty psyched indeed! After watching it, I figured that the snake model was probably the one that would be used in-game--it works perfectly(good enough for cut scenes and more than good enough for normal gameplay). All the other models look amazing as well. And for everyone complaining about only one light source, well, its outside in the afternnon or morning, so the sun is pretty much the only source of light and I am pretty sure this is rather early in development--give them some time ffs! And I am sure that any night scenes will have multiple light sources and everything else you might expect from a next-gen title. Kojima doesn't disappoint(unless, of course, you are Absinthe :imu: ).

 

[Absinthe]

Look, all I am saying is that Sony has thus far been straightforward about the names of their consoles: Playstation, Playstation 2, and Playstation 3. Microsoft can't even pretend that most of their audience aren't rockheads because they have to add the requisite "3" into their name and also give it a purpose, like the 360 degrees of a perfect circle or some such. Boy would it have been stupid to call it the XBox 3--where's the 2nd one? Would anyone really have noticed?

Sony wouldn't need to worry, now would they? They have the bigger number. Straightforward about their names? Honest question: Who gives a shit? They are names. This kind of analysis is merely conjectural conspiracy theory bullcrap that isn't warranted. MS figured they could get more customers if they had a different name. Whoop-dee-doo!

Nintendo have gone their own route the whole time, which has always been terrific in my book. They don't even try to compete with the two money-grubbing console giants and they do very well for themselves. Microsoft obviously wasn't as confident in their new console because they had to have something on par with Sony's 3rd machine and call it as such instead of the XBox Revolution or something.

Oh, so now it's different when Microsoft does it? Nintendo can call every one of their systems something different, but when MS does it we're dealing with pretentious liars? What kind of effed up double standard is this?
It has nothing to do with confidence, really. I'm sure they're well aware of fanboy allegiances and clueless demographic. If they can stop some dunderhead from puying a PS3 over their console because it has a 3 in the name, then that's another dollar in their pocket. Where's the biggy?

Wow. You're in a very serious minority. I hope your standards for everything in life aren't that high!

It's not that I have high standards. MGS2 was a boring, messy, snoozer of a game that duped you into playing as a feminine nancy-boy. I saw very little of value in it. Furthemore, I'm not the only one who shares this view. Kojima couldn't write his way out of a paper bag. At least not coherently.

 

[VictimOfScience]

This kind of analysis is merely conjectural conspiracy theory bullcrap that isn't warranted. MS figured they could get more customers if they had a different name. Whoop-dee-doo!

No conspiracy, just marketing bs(a redundancy, as marketing/advertising is ALL bs). Call a spade a spade, right? Just call it "2"--your fans will know what's up. That's all.

Oh, so now it's different when Microsoft does it? Nintendo can call every one of their systems something different, but when MS does it we're dealing with pretentious liars? What kind of effed up double standard is this? Where's the biggy?

Well, we all know they are pretentious liars, there's no argument there, but the name is intentionally misleading so that they can possibly score more $. That's all. Why the hell are we still "arguing" about this?

It's not that I have high standards. MGS2 was a boring, messy, snoozer of a game that duped you into playing as a feminine nancy-boy. I saw very little of value in it. Furthemore, I'm not the only one who shares this view. Kojima couldn't write his way out of a paper bag. At least not coherently.

Wow, besides the obvious bullyish and homophobic undertones inherent in your statement, you are just plain wrong. MGS2 got stellar reviews across the boards from the gaming press and gamers alike. I know some people complained about the change of character from Snake to Raiden, but thats not nearly enough to ruin a game for me and devalue it entirely. Oh well. You can't please everyone.

Let's get back on topic, shall we, since neither of us will let this go apparently. We each have our opinion, however wrong it may seem to the other. I hate threads like this and having to skip over them while browsing for their lack of content just steams me. (See the politics forum for some terrific examples of this.) :-\

What I really want to see now is a real-time vid of actual gameplay to see how the whole "sense" theme actually works. But supposedly the next really great example of this won't be shown until TGS 2006. :x

 

[Fliko]

Look, all I am saying is that Sony has thus far been straightforward about the names of their consoles: Playstation, Playstation 2, and Playstation 3. Microsoft can't even pretend that most of their audience aren't rockheads because they have to add the requisite "3" into their name and also give it a purpose, like the 360 degrees of a perfect circle or some such. Boy would it have been stupid to call it the XBox 3--where's the 2nd one? Would anyone really have noticed?

Nintendo have gone their own route the whole time, which has always been terrific in my book. They don't even try to compete with the two money-grubbing console giants and they do very well for themselves. Microsoft obviously wasn't as confident in their new console because they had to have something on par with Sony's 3rd machine and call it as such instead of the XBox Revolution or something.

Anyone see something wrong in here?
Microsoft wanted to give the Xbox a different name than Xbox 2, do they gave it the name "Xbox 360". Seems just like the "Nintendo" to the "Nintendo 64". Stop bashing the Xbox because it is made by Microsoft.
Its just a name also, it won't change the performance of the machine.

Wow, besides the obvious bullyish and homophobic undertones inherent in your statement, you are just plain wrong. MGS2 got stellar reviews across the boards from the gaming press and gamers alike. I know some people complained about the change of character from Snake to Raiden, but thats not nearly enough to ruin a game for me and devalue it entirely. Oh well. You can't please everyone.

Maybe MGS2 was a great game, I won't know for 1-3 weeks. Though, it seems like it didn't live up to the MGS expectations, so people were mad because they didn't get the high expectations.
Its called hype, and it ruins games around the world for everyone.

Ontopic: It looks great, but, graphics don't matter, they just help the game. Gameplay has to be good for me to buy a PS3 to just get the new FF game, and MGS4

 

[operative x]

I Thought the video was cool.

 

[VictimOfScience]

Anyone see something wrong in here?
Microsoft wanted to give the Xbox a different name than Xbox 2, do they gave it the name "Xbox 360". Seems just like the "Nintendo" to the "Nintendo 64". Stop bashing the Xbox because it is made by Microsoft.
Its just a name also, it won't change the performance of the machine.

You are right. Just like from Nintendo Entertainment System to Super Nintendo to Nintendo 64. At least '64' had some actual meaning and relevance to the hardware. And Super Nintendo was indeed quite Super I am just saying that the name isn't arbitrary and is intended deceive consumers.

Maybe MGS2 was a great game, I won't know for 1-3 weeks. Though, it seems like it didn't live up to the MGS expectations, so people were mad because they didn't get the high expectations.
Its called hype, and it ruins games around the world for everyone.

Ha, you could just go rent MGS2 so you won't have to wait 1-3 weeks to play it--it really is quite a spectacular game. And since when does hype necessarily ruin a game? I for one just get more excited for it--its only when a developer can't live up to the hype that a gaming experience is, in your words, "ruined."

Ontopic: It looks great, but, graphics don't matter, they just help the game. Gameplay has to be good for me to buy a PS3 to just get the new FF game, and MGS4

...and Killzone and Devil May Cry 4 and Vision Gran Turismo and the new Gradius and Assassin and Warhawk and well, you get the idea. If only a handful of these live up to the hype, then this will be the system to purchase. The gameplay in the Metal Gear series has never been less than amazing, so I have no doubt that MGS4 will follow in that great tradition.

 

[Absinthe]

No conspiracy, just marketing bs(a redundancy, as marketing/advertising is ALL bs). Call a spade a spade, right? Just call it "2"--your fans will know what's up. That's all.

Who said we're talking about just fans? They're also trying to attract new customers.

Besides, "Xbox 2" sounds dumb. It's just a different name. You'd perhaps have an argument if it was called "Xbox 3" or "Xbox: The Coming Of Christ", but it's not. It's just a title that hits two birds with one stone: It does away with the issue of ignorant customers being sold by a number and it's evocative of the kind of experience they want to create.

Well, we all know they are pretentious liars, there's no argument there, but the name is intentionally misleading so that they can possibly score more $. That's all. Why the hell are we still "arguing" about this?

Because it isn't misleading.

Wow, besides the obvious bullyish and homophobic undertones inherent in your statement, you are just plain wrong. MGS2 got stellar reviews across the boards from the gaming press and gamers alike. I know some people complained about the change of character from Snake to Raiden, but thats not nearly enough to ruin a game for me and devalue it entirely. Oh well. You can't please everyone.

Homophobic? Sure, whatever. Frankly, I don't care what the reviews said about MGS2. I thought it wasn't worth the fifty bucks I shelled out for it. To imply that I have ridiculously high standards is nuts. I've played many average games and enjoyed them thoroughly. That's more than I can say for my experience with MGS2.

Let's get back on topic, shall we, since neither of us will let this go apparently. We each have our opinion, however wrong it may seem to the other. I hate threads like this and having to skip over them while browsing for their lack of content just steams me. (See the politics forum for some terrific examples of this.) :-\

What I really want to see now is a real-time vid of actual gameplay to see how the whole "sense" theme actually works. But supposedly the next really great example of this won't be shown until TGS 2006. :x

Concurred. :rolling:

 

[Warbie]

//edit

It does look impressive, but i'm starting to lose interest in the series (which has got worse with every iteration)

Hopefully no.4 will be as great as the original.

 

[DigiQ8]

//edit

It does look impressive, but i'm starting to lose interest in the series (which has got worse with every iteration)

Hopefully no.4 will be as great as the original.

3 was awesome

 

[VictimOfScience]

I've played many average games and enjoyed them thoroughly. That's more than I can say for my experience with MGS2.

Wow! That is something I just don't understand: Metal Gear Solid 2 was below average. I am very sorry that you weren't able to enjoy that one as it was intended. Why even comment on this one then, especially if you're just going to state how the 360 is better because it has more than "tech demos"(which this most certainly isn't) available for public viewing? This game is years away! 360 games are months away--big difference in the dev lifecycle there. The assets used in the footage here are real and will be used in-game. Some people are just never satisfied.

:rolling:

My sentiments exactly. :dozey:

 

[Absinthe]

Wow! That is something I just don't understand: Metal Gear Solid 2 was below average. I am very sorry that you weren't able to enjoy that one as it was intended. Why even comment on this one then, especially if you're just going to state how the 360 is better because it has more than "tech demos"(which this most certainly isn't) available for public viewing? This game is years away! 360 games are months away--big difference in the dev lifecycle there. The assets used in the footage here are real and will be used in-game. Some people are just never satisfied.

IIRC, you were the one that decided to drag out my aside. I was making a mere comment; an addendum to my rant.

I'm not doubting that the assets are real. I'm not doubting that it's in-game. I'm just saying that this clip demonstrates practically nothing. To see people say "OMG awesome" and "Wow PS3 is amazing" in response to this video in particular simply aroused an urge to post regarding it. I could hypothetically create a highly detailed model and move a single light source around his immovable position in one specific scene. It would look real pretty and the audience would gasp in awe. Getting into a working unscripted game with all sorts of working variables, however, is an entirely different matter.

It's about as in-game as a Doom 3 model in a viewer.

 

[dream431ca]

You're very easily swayed if all it took was a static 3D image and a moveable light.

Man..What the hell are you talking about!? :x You haven't even seen it have you?? The 6 minute trailer?? Your probably talking about something very different than what I saw.

 

[Absinthe]

Man..What the hell are you talking about!? :x You haven't even seen it have you?? The 6 minute trailer?? Your probably talking about something very different than what I saw.

I assumed you were refering to the video in the topic post.

So what you're talking about is the six-minute cutscene. Meh. I guess that displays graphical power (of course, MGS2 buffed up its cutscenes far beyond what was displayed during the actual gameplay), but pretty visuals don't get my dollar.

 

[smwScott]

The cutscenes in MGS games have never looked too much better than the game itself. But regardless, that was a real time cutscene running in engine on PS3 tech. Are you just in denial? The game looks very good and that's pretty much all there is to it, and it will look very similar to that while your actually playing it. Supposedly, it will look considerably better than that before they actually release it.

And for the static image manipulation ... that's how they always show off real time tech. They pause it and move the camera around, letting you know that this isn't a pre-rendered scene. Had they moved the camera around while the cutscene continued to play it would have been difficult to show off the impressive lighting/shadowing and the fact that Otacon wasn't just a video playing but was also rendered in real time.

But whatever, mark my words - the game will look at least that good when it comes out. The preview for MGS2, which was even more impressive than this, definitely improved before release.

 

[Absinthe]

Are you just in denial?

About what? Have you paid any attention to what I've been saying. I won't bother explaining it to another person, so feel free to reread my posts.

And for the static image manipulation ... that's how they always show off real time tech.

Great. And it shows nothing. If they paused it mid-gameplay then I'd be more impressed. But all they showed was a paralysed model. WOOHOO. I CAN FEEL THE EXCITEMENT PUMPING THROUGH MEH VAINS.

:| If you don't see where I'm coming from on this, then it's best this all just stops.

 

[VictimOfScience]

It's about as in-game as a Doom 3 model in a viewer.

And you wouldn't find that exciting years before its release? Just like you didn't get excited over the first couple of vids for the Unreal Engine 3.0? Riiiiight. Just like the Project Offset troll from the very first vid from that team? And as we have all seen in the subsequent vids, it just gets better and better from there, so there is absolutely no reason to say we have all been duped by some not-so-clever developers. We know what it is and we know enough to be excited. Go belittle someone else please.

 

[Absinthe]

I thought they were pretty. It was interesting. But I accepted them as what they were. Nothing to pull my wallet out for. And to be fair, the Unreal Engine 3.0 videos showed a lot more than this did.

So you go ahead and get excited. I'll stand over here in the corner and be greeted with a pleasant surprise (possibly).

 

[VictimOfScience]

the Unreal Engine 3.0 videos showed a lot more than this did.

I was referring to the one that showed the creature coming out of the manhole and then the large dinosaur-ish beast walking by, albeit with a crappy framerate. Not a lot of detail there, but enough to see that they were onto something hot! And those environments were pretty cool too, though did they really show that much more, even with the pretty disco lights on a model?

What are your feelings on the pre-rendered and scripted Half-Life 2 demo that was so controversial long before the game ever came out? That might be illuminating for the rest of us.

So you go ahead and get excited. I'll stand over here in the corner and be greeted with a pleasant surprise (possibly).

Even though I and many like me are very excited by all this, I have a feeling that everyone(even you perhaps?) will be very pleasantly surprised by the finished product, but let's just wait and see. There's a whole ton of gaming goodness we have to get through just in the next month or so, let alone the next couple of years! :cheers: