Korean anti-Semitism

[Absinthe]

Well I disagree,I just think how we (the west) managed that whole thing was wrong,everybody deserves a home BUT,don't use a frigging fantasy book as an excuse for land ownership.

I am not advocating the deprivation of homes. But the idea of a home country for a religious ideology is preposterous. Nor do I believe a specific "race" deserves a home for itself.

That's incredibly insular, and subsequently a possible danger.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

All religions are needlessly violent to some extent.

The most moderate christian stands by while his friends and family burn in hell.
The most pacifistic buddhist would refuse to fight to stop a war. Of course, jewish people aren't anywhere near being pacifists.

Most people are retarded about their criticism/support of Judaism for a variety of reasons:

-Few people actually know that much about the religion, because they're a relatively tiny group compared to islam and christianity (which do not take the time to understand eachother, and fail, the vast majority of the time, to understand themselves.)

-Christianity as a general whole has de-facto support of judaism, because Israel getting its own state will obstensibly trigger the end times where christians get the happyreward of all the jews and muslims (and everyone else) being burnt to death by Jesus' space army.
As a result of Christianity also having de-facto control over american politics, americans defend Israel out of a sense of patriotism (because it's an "allied country", while the arabs in surrounding states are defined almost purely in terms of their nutzo religion).

-That also links up with World War II, and the fact that people try way too hard to prove they're not nazis - as if that should be necessary. Since the nazis are considered just about the epitome of evil, liking the jews is the world's laziest way to get brownie points.

-On the other side of the Lemesis/Nemonking spectrum, we've got the people who see all the stupid shit being done in the name of judaism and then throw their support behind the equally retarded islamic folks, or conspiracy theories.
The conspiracy theories are of course, based on ignorance about the religion mixed with the legitimate problem of judaism getting such irrational amounts of political support, both taken to their retarded extremes.


In the end, the concept of Judaism as a race was basically an invention of the nazis to justify their use of eugenics (or vice-versa). The saddest part is even though that their plan failed, it actually backfired; the political correctness surrounding race carried over to the religion and made judaism into a gigantic sacred cow either inviolable or fit to be slain.

Basically, Judaism has become a super-religion. All the most awful and stupid aspects of all religion become artificially magnified when put into contact with it.

 

[Ytse Jam]

Nah, I don't buy that. There may be some "pressure" but that pressure is, itself, another aspect of the religion.
You better believe that tons of christians refuse inter-faith and/or interracial marriages.
So, is christianity a race too?

Your genetic makeup has absolutely nothing to do with religious ideology. It's all a matter of abandonning/corrupting basic logic.

Look at Ytse there, as an example.
He wants his own country to "practice the faith".
The racial segregation is simply the method he uses to reach that goal.

(Why the hell he would need an entire country to do this simple task is a whole other shitbasket.)


And Nemesis, you didn't answer my question: Why is it good to hate islam and not judaism?

Wait wait, WHOA. When did I say that all of Israel should practice Judaism? All I said is that people of a Jewish religious and ethnic background should have a country where they're free to practice their religion without worrying about being persecuted as we have been for thousands of years.

 

[Nemesis6]

Israel is occupying it


DUH



It's like a prsion city for arabs.

Israel is not occupying Gaza. They pulled out in Autumn 2005. And yes, it is a prison for Arabs. They've elected the wardens themselves.

Mecha, sorry for passing by your post earlier on. Anyway, here goes - The reason I focus more on Anti-Semitism is because there's more of that than there's "Islamophobia". And the Arabs do a great deal to promote Anti-Semitism. Now the strange thing is that, seeing as how they portray the Jews as eating Matza with the blood of Muslims and Christians, they kill people if people draw Muhammed.

When confronted with racism, Jews tend not to do a lot. When confronted with what can be interpreted as a provocation, the Muslims kill. That's why. I think I fundamentally have more respect for people who are passive than I have for people who, when they're not killing, maiming, and destroying things, are yelling "JEW" at people in the street. You make the mistake, like many others have, of thinking that radical Islam is Islam as a whole, and thus, anyone who criticizes it is "Islamophobic", and that's a dangerous thing because you trivialize the majority of Muslims and give voice to those who claim to speak for them; The Islamists.

I think this cartoon sums up my point of view on this pretty nicely - www.israellycool.com/cartoon mohammed.gif

 

[Aenama]

Doesn't stop them from whacking Palestinians
http://english.people.com.cn/200702/02/eng20070202_346802.html

 

[Nemesis6]

Luckily. I won't have to elaborate on what I mean by that, will I? I mean, you read the article, I presume.

 

[Aenama]

also you always cry about how Muslims kill Jews,why is it then the death toll is is TWICE as high on Palestinian side?

 

[Nemesis6]

You didn't read it, did you? The very article you posted here answers your own question!

 

[Walter]

I think this cartoon sums up my point of view on this pretty nicely - www.israellycool.com/cartoon mohammed.gif

"Sorry, you need to be a jew to enter this website" lol!

 

[Aenama]

You didn't read it, did you? The very article you posted here answers your own question!

no it doesnt't

Mr."Jewish neighborhoods are cleaner then arab ones.


prick.

 

[Nemesis6]

Nice level of argumentation there. Two of the killed were terrorists belong to the Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigades. The rest, well, read the article -

Meanwhile, the IDF confirmed another killing of a Palestinian who tried to infiltrate Israel through the security fence near the West Bank's Qalandiyah refugee camp later Thursday morning.

The Israeli army also shot and moderately injured a 35-year-old Palestinian man near the Gaza security fence.

The IDF claimed that they identified a man sabotaging the fence in the northern Gaza Strip, and shot him in the legs after he ignored warning of leaving the area.

That's why more Palestinians die. They pull stupid shit like sending their kids to checkpoints with bombs strapped to their waists.

As for your attempt to paint me a racist - Nice try. Your arguments failed, so it's nice to be able to invalidate anything I have to say by claiming I'm a racist, right? Makes attempting to back away from a failed battle more honorable if you keep repeating to yourself that you didn't lose.

As for your pathetic attempt at an insult, I won't stoop to your level.

 

[Aenama]

AHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAH

And I thought Im stupid you fail at so many levels.




edit:according to your logic,even the DDR army had a right to shoot people,that wanted to get over that wall/fence.
A wall that is considred illegal in most of the world btw.
You are pathic,I assume you were born as an amry brat.Was your daddy an american jew or something or why is it that you try so bitterly to defend Israel actions against Human rights,and common sense?.You also defended Israel in that 4 week war against Lebanon.Did you know the US is investigating Isreal for the use of cluster bombs?
Are you justifing that too?
Im to lazy to look now,but Stern posted a map of targets in Lebanon that were bombed,One of these days Politicians will see that all the money we give Israel is wasted,then I want you cry more about how Jews are sooo much better then Muslims,BTW,I could care less about Jews or Muslims,they kill each other if they want.But not with my money that I pay in taxes.

 

[Nemesis6]

Hah, I fail? You repeat your previous posts with added insults. How lame is that? Up till now I haven't said anything about you. You, on the other hand, have gotten your panties so much in a bunch over my posts that you have felt the need to attack me personally several times. When people do that in a debate, it's called flaming, and it's not a valid form of argumentation.

 

[15357]

I think we should change the title of this thread now.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

How about calling it closed. if this continues. Lemonking's been warned.

Ytse: It's called "most countries on Earth". And you haven't been persecuted for "thousands of years." You're probably no older than twenty and I doubt you've experienced much persecution at all. The point of reflecting on the past is to learn lessons from it. Not to wear it as a lead plate.

Nemesis: I am not ignoring the distinction between fundamentalism and moderatism. I am repeating that there is no distiction.
Being anti-terrorism without being anti-islam is a lame stance. Anyone with a brain can be anti-terrorism. But look into the base causes and you'll find that the religion is the prime, if not sole, factor. The koran encourages terrorism.

That's why you decry islamic terrorism specifically, and mock things that islamic people find offensive.
Basically, you want your cake and to eat it too. You're pointing out the stupid absurdity of the religion while simultaneously taking on the airs of a sensitive tolerant guy.

Judaism is exactly as absurd as islam and, for its proportionate population size, responsible for an equal amount of violence, death and social ill.
So by any right you should be decrying it as well.
Much of their policies in the mideast are indefensible, yet defended anyways for no good reason.

The issue here is that you are looking at the problems from a strictly material standpoint and ignoring the underlying philosophy.
The fact of the matter is that there is very, very little preventing members of any religion from bombing your nation and killing thousands.
You're ignoring them all save for a single one that successfully did.
I don't wish to imagine what would happen should America choose to drop its support of Israel (and why would they support the thing in the first place, you should ask).

It's not unreasonable to conclude that you are basing your opinions on predetermined judgement because you haven't, for example, provided a single reason to support judaism as much as you do.
You aren't jewish, and you gain absolutely nothing from a jewish state (neither does Ytse, but he's programmed to think so).
You have put far more effort into "saving" judaism than you have on supporting your own beliefs and/or philosophies.

So, again, why?

 

[Nemesis6]

So what you're saying is that I should condemn the religions? The only problem is, Judaism, in its present form, is relatively peaceful, of course aside from some of the nice people in Hebron, etc.

But the thing that seperates Judaism and Islam is this: Islam is as political if not more than it it is spiritual. It calls for the creation of a global Islamic caliphate, and it calls upon its followers to do that with violence. Judaism is a religion much more than Islam in the sense that, for example, as far as I know, Judaism has no standardized set of rules, as does Islam in the sense of Shari'a, that are to be used within Jewish societies. People say that the God of the Old Testament is a relatively evil one compared to the one we have come to know in the New Testament. But when you actually compare the Quran with the Torah, you WILL find the Quran more advocative of violent action and hatred. But the greatest testimony to the "superiority" of Judaism and Christianity to Islam is the fact that I'm right now talking about them, and I have not be killed. I have talked about them openly, too, and have not felt that my life was in danger, or those of my family. Muhammed was a psychopatic mass-murdering racist pedophile, now compare that to, say, Buddha, Jesus, or Abraham, and you will find that, by comparison, they're all angels compared to Muhammed when it comes to militancy and violence.

Muhammed was much of a military-man, and the religion he founded illustrates it well in the sense that it is more political than spiritual. I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but that's my opinion. I think I can give you one example - It doesn't really matter how much of a believer you are, in a secular Muslim country, you will be lynched for talking bad about something that a majority impose upon you; Which is Islam. That's the political aspect - Shari'a.

Don't say Israel gives us nothing. I'm sure you've heard about Israel's role in technology, pharmaceuticals, etc.

 

[Ytse Jam]

Thank you Nemesis, very much. I actually was about to leave this thread completely because there were more questions to answer than I had time for. I will answer a few, though.

To whoever accused me of joining this website strictly to argue my points: No, I was actually invited here by Akira for the purpose of enjoying Caturday.
To whoever asked why Jews should have their own countries when Christians and Muslims don't: Wrong. Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon all disprove the claim that Islam doesn't have countries mainly catering its own religion. Besides, Israel is home to all three Abrahamic religions, and then some; I just meant that Jews should have a country where they shouldn't have to be afraid of facing anti-Semitism or massacres every few years.
To Mechagodzilla: There is indeed something I gain from a Jewish state, and that's someplace for me and my fellow Jews to live without fear of persecution. Yet every day my Israeli cousins and friends suffer every day from terrorist attacks because people like you cast the same doubt on the state's legitimacy as most of the rest of the world does.
Again to Mechagodzilla, I personally haven't been persecuted for thousands of years, but my father was, as was his father, and his father before that, and so on. A vast amount of my friends have grandparents who endured the Holocaust, some who have lost entire families because of it. And actually, I have faced my own share of anti-Semitism, in my school where I should supposedly be safe. In fact, I've had people beat me up for it.

That's pretty much all I have to say, unless there were other people I forgot to respond too (but I'm too tired to search this thread now).

 

[Aenama]

nvm,this BS isn't worth my time.

 

[15357]

I don't really care if there is a Jewish state, or there isn't.

We weren't very anti-israel. Actually, all the newspapers and news agencies (albeit, controlled by the goverment by Emergency Laws) were in favor of Israel winning the middle eastern war in the 70s, and were actually glorifying, rooting them on, and making out israel to be some kind of hero, like David versus Goliath. Heh.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

So what you're saying is that I should condemn the religions?

No, that is not at all what I asked.
I asked you why you actively support judaism as a religion you do not follow and have no material interest in.

Instead of presenting a reason, you just ranted on about Islam more. Your basic argument is "here is a list of terrible things muslims do that jews do relatively less of."

So, all you've really said is "jews aren't extremely evil".
That would explain ambivalence towards judaism, but you are not ambivalent. As I've pointed out, you support judaism much more than you do your own personal religion and/or philosophy.
(I don't even know what it is.)

And even in the islam rant, you got a lot of points rather incorrect.

Islam is as political if not more than it it is spiritual. It calls for the creation of a global Islamic caliphate, and it calls upon its followers to do that with violence.

The Torah says the same thing. It's the first commandment.

Judaism has no standardized set of rules, as does Islam

All religions have standardized sets of rules.

compare the Quran with the Torah, you WILL find the Quran more advocative of violent action and hatred.

That's inaccurate. People have counted, and the bible contains far more passages advocating violence than the koran, spread out across the book. Most of that violence (by far) is contained in the Old Testament so, at best, the two books are equally in support of violence.

But the greatest testimony to the "superiority" of Judaism and Christianity to Islam is the fact that I'm right now talking about them, and I have not be killed.

You're talking about Islam too, and you haven't been killed yet either. Paranoia or hyperbole?

Muhammed was a psychopatic mass-murdering racist pedophile, now compare that to, say, Buddha, Jesus, or Abraham, and you will find that, by comparison, they're all angels compared to Muhammed when it comes to militancy and violence.

The Old Testament of the Bible contains explicit instructions on how to treat specific races and definitely hates other religions. It advocates mass-murder on an international scale. It contains absolutely no law against pedophilia, and marriages as young as twelve (and younger, as far as I know) were common at the time (and apparently advocated under biblical law, which I repeat has no rule against pedophilia).

Jesus asked for violence greater in scope than that of the old testament.
The peaceful version of Jesus was an invention of a rogue group of priests a half-century after his death.

Muhammed was much of a military-man, and the religion he founded illustrates it well in the sense that it is more political than spiritual.

All religions are effectively more political than spiritual, save for more "unofficial" ones like deism.
That is why they tend to have laws. Like how judaism has lots and lots of laws.

Don't say Israel gives us nothing. I'm sure you've heard about Israel's role in technology, pharmaceuticals, etc.

Science gives us technology and pharmaceuticals.
Religion is the opposite of science.


Right, so now that that is covered, I am asking again:

Why are you so strongly in support of Judaism when the religion is of absolutely no value to you and is, in fact, antithetical to your personal sensibilities?

 

[Walter]

Religion is the opposite of science.

Depends which.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

No, it does not.

Science is secular.
It is conducted in the absence of religion by definition.

 

[Ytse Jam]

Crap...double-posted. Just read the one below this.

 

[Ytse Jam]

To start: just because a religion, philosophy, or nation is not your own doesn't mean you can't support them. That's why alliances exist. Look, I may not agree with everything the American government does, and it may be a nation mostly based on Western values (which are in a sense Christian values), but I'm very supportive of its decisions.

Also, you seem to be suggesting that Jews are evil. Tell me, what is one evil thing a Jew has done to you?

The Torah's first commandment says nothing about turning the world into a Jewish one. It says that there is one God, the God that took the Jewish people from out of Egypt. And just because it says there is no other God doesn't mean that it suggests that Jews should force that belief upon others. Keep this in mind: we are the only religion out of the three Abrahamic religions that doesn't actively try to convert others (I can't speak for other religions like Buddhism or Sikhism, because I honestly don't know their attitude).

It is true what you said, that Jews have standardized rules like Muslims. But all nations, philosophies, and religions have their own sets of rules. That's what makes them religions. Doesn't Christianity have such rules as going to church every Sunday and being kind to your neighbor? Buddhism has rules such as seeking nirvana and not being possessive. All value systems have rules, so it would be foolish to denigrate Jews on that point.

So you say that the Torah is more violent than the Quran? I cannot refute that point, because I have never read the Quran. But I can tell you that I've seen far fewer Israelis go into Palestinian territory and blown themselves up than Palestinians go into Israel and blow themselves and hundreds of innocents up (I've actually never heard of such an Israeli that would do that). I have never seen a group of Jews fly planes into American economic facilities, nor have I seen Jews capture American reporters, soldiers, or citizens and videotape their captivity to America, then slay them. I've only seen Islamic fundamentalists do that. And I'm not saying that Muslims are a violent, animalistic people; there are moderate Muslims that only want peace. There are plenty of Muslims who would rather their leaders lay down their swords and end the violence against Israel and the West.

When Nemesis said he was able to talk about the three Abrahamic religions without fear of death, he was most likely criticizing Islam in a country with Western values and government, such as America or Canada. The reason he doesn't have a reason to fear death here is because Islamic fundamentalists aren't in government positions. If he lived in Iran on the other hand, he would not be able to support or refute my arguments today.

The Old Testament of the Bible contains explicit instructions on how to treat specific races and definitely hates other religions. It advocates mass-murder on an international scale. It contains absolutely no law against pedophilia, and marriages as young as twelve (and younger, as far as I know) were common at the time (and apparently advocated under biblical law, which I repeat has no rule against pedophilia).

For all points on this, consider this fact: the Old Testament was written many, many millennia ago; values were different then. People had to marry at young ages because people didn't live as long then. Mass-murder and hatred of religions was common because other religions seemed strange and frightening. The Quran was also and I'm sure reflect the same values. The difference is that Jews do not follow the values of the Torah verbatim anymore; Islamic fundamentalists follow the Quran exactly. Since the times of Maccabean Canaan (a couple centuries B.C.E.), not one conquest against religion has been made by Jews; conquest by Islam has become increasingly popular in the past seven years.

I won't deny that religions have political agendas. It's in their roots; religions used to not be so universal, one religion being practiced per nation or city-state. So Islam behaves like a city-state; it wants to take over the surrounding city-states, eventually creating universal Islam. Christianity used to be openly like that; Manifest Destiny, converting 'backward' tribesmen to 'save' them from their sin, and even Jews in Maccabean times tried to convert surrounding nations. That however, was a couple thousand years ago and the only known conquest for conversion in Jewish history. Christianity long ago moved away from that, so Manifest Destiny is for the most part under the rug, though it often shows itself in Bush's agenda. Islam is the only Abrahamic religion that hasn't yet put away its need to convert or kill every nation around it. Not to say Christians don't like to convert people once in a while, but at least the other choice isn't death.

Also, who said that it's a bad thing that Judaism has a lot of laws? Those laws are essential to our survival! Heck, such laws as Kashrut (Kosher) spared us from the Black Plague, I'll tell you that.

Nemesis never said that Judaism gave you pharmaceuticals (not sure how you spell that), he said that Israel did. Even so, keep in mind that the Jewish religion/ethnic group (the city-state thing makes us an ethnicity indeed) has won Nobel prizes disproportionate to our population.

And to top it all off, to your closing statement: once again, just because Nemesis isn't Jewish doesn't mean he can't support Jews and Israel. Also, he never said (as far as I can tell) that his values are antithetical to those of Jews and Israel. Do you have to be African American to support racial tolerance? No. Do you have to be homosexual to support gay marriage? Absolutely not. Keep this in mind.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

To start: just because a religion, philosophy, or nation is not your own doesn't mean you can't support them.

That is why I am asking if he has a single reason to support them, which he has not yet provided.

Also, you seem to be suggesting that Jews are evil.

I've said no such thing. I said the jewish religion is inherently evil. You might be a nice person for all I know, but your religion is certifiably messed up.

The Torah's first commandment says nothing about turning the world into a Jewish one. It says that there is one God, the God that took the Jewish people from out of Egypt. And just because it says there is no other God doesn't mean that it suggests that Jews should force that belief upon others.

Incorrect, you haven't read the full chapter.

Exodus 20:2-3
"I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

Exodus 22:20
"He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed."

Exodus also says that you are not allowed to even mention the names of other gods. (23:13)

The laws of moses elaborate that this is not a metaphorical statement.

Keep this in mind: we are the only religion out of the three Abrahamic religions that doesn't actively try to convert others

Yeah, so you don't teach this stuff to children. Not true, obviously.

But all nations, philosophies, and religions have their own sets of rules. That's what makes them religions.

Nations and philosophies are not religions.
Also, this a correction of Nem's claim that only Islam has standardized rules.

I cannot refute that point.

Good.

I've only seen Islamic fundamentalists do [violent things].

Yeah, right.

The reason he doesn't have a reason to fear death here is because Islamic fundamentalists aren't in government positions.

Once again, the main problem you both have with islam is that it isn't secular enough. There is nothing between the religions that is fundamentally different. Only Muslims are more likely to follow their book, while you suppress yours.

For all points on this, consider this fact: the Old Testament was written many, many millennia ago; values were different then.

No, they weren't.

Numbers 15:15
"The Law is permanent for all future generations. You must add nothing to what I command you, nor subtract anything from it, but keep the commandments of Yahweh your God just as I lay them down for you."

The values haven't changed in the slightest. Your ability corrupt those values with secularism, on the other hand, has increased rapidly.

I won't deny that religions have political agendas.

Good.

That however, was a couple thousand years ago [...] Islam is the only Abrahamic religion that hasn't yet put away its need to convert or kill every nation around it.

Wrong. The agenda has not changed in the slightest. You simply choose to ignore it.

Say what you will about Islam, but they follow their religion instead of let it die.

Also, who said that it's a bad thing that Judaism has a lot of laws? Those laws are essential to our survival! Heck, such laws as Kashrut (Kosher) spared us from the Black Plague, I'll tell you that.

If I remember correctly (which I do) killing one person from every family in the entire country of Egypt (as well as all the livestock) was also involved there.

The problem is not the number of laws; it is that the laws are quite awful and, although you refuse to follow them, mandatory.

Kill gays, kill rape victims, kill unruly children, kill people of other religions, kill all murderers (no jail), kill magicians, kill people who work on sundays, kill people who have affairs, kill theives, practice slavery, etc.

the Jewish religion/ethnic group (the city-state thing makes us an ethnicity indeed) has won Nobel prizes disproportionate to our population.

Who cares? That has nothing to do with the question, which is the question of why your religion gets vast amounts of respect from people who have absolutely no reason to respect it.

And to top it all off, to your closing statement: once again, just because Nemesis isn't Jewish doesn't mean he can't support Jews and Israel.

If he had a good reason, which he doesn't.

Also, he never said (as far as I can tell) that his values are antithetical to those of Jews and Israel.

That's because I said that.

Do you have to be African American to support racial tolerance? No. Do you have to be homosexual to support gay marriage? Absolutely not. Keep this in mind.

I did keep this in mind.
All of those actions make sense. They are good for a reason, which is the fact that they end senseless prejudice.
There is no reason to support judaism if you are not jewish, and really no reason even if you are jewish. Your stances promote sensless prejudice.
Even if it is "nice" prejudice, it is prejudice all the same. It is wasting resources on unfounded assumptions.


So, again, where is a single reason to actively support the jewish religion?

And why is this simple question so difficult to answer correctly?

 

[Ytse Jam]

To your first about Jews being inherently evil. You have still given me no reason why you think so. And even if our religion may have its screw-ups, so does every other religion. REMEMBER: Nobody is perfect!

The sections that speak of destroying he who worships other gods you've taken out of context. This speaks of Jews that turn on their God to worship idols, not people of other religions.

I don't see teaching my children and my children's children as conversion. I see that as passing on the tradition. You have a right to raise your children however you want. I'm saying that only the Maccabees tried to impose Judaism on other nations.

I'm aware that I'm refuting Nemesis' point that only Islam has rules, but I never said that nations and philosophies are religions. But there is one thing all three have in common: they are bodies or constructs of a group of people who view the world in the same or similar ways.

I never said that only Islamic fundamentalists do violent things. What I say is that only Islamic fundamentalists behead reporters and civilians, blow themselves up, and send themselves on a collision course with buildings. Once again, don't take my arguments or other facts out of context.

Sure, the Biblical law says that we can't stray from the law, but that's the text. People do evolve, though. Most have moved past that. Those who haven't...well, I can't speak for them. But most of us have.

When did I say I suppress my holy book? I don't follow it as literally as today's terrorists, but I certainly don't ignore it.

You know what? I'm going to just stop here. I can see there's no convincing you; you are dead set on the belief that Jews are wrong in their every action and that there is no justification for whatever they do. But I must ask you: why? What is it you're trying to prove by hating us?

 

[CptStern]

You know what? I'm going to just stop here. I can see there's no convincing you; you are dead set on the belief that Jews are wrong in their every action and that there is no justification for whatever they do. But I must ask you: why? What is it you're trying to prove by hating us?

wtf? no seriously wtf are you doing right there? I've read the same passages from mecha as you have, not once did I think he was disseminating hate ..truth be told is that you just cant answer his statements directly as it's just that much easier to dismiss his as being anti-semetic ..some of you are far far too quick to use that to silence any sort of dissenting voice

 

[kirovman]

You have a right to raise your children however you want.

So I have the right to raise my kids as Nazis who believe in the Ayran super-race?

 

[Ytse Jam]

wtf? no seriously wtf are you doing right there? I've read the same passages from mecha as you have, not once did I think he was disseminating hate ..truth be told is that you just cant answer his statements directly as it's just that much easier to dismiss his as being anti-semetic ..some of you are far far too quick to use that to silence any sort of dissenting voice

No, I just want to know why he persists. What does he get out of it?

So I have the right to raise my kids as Nazis who believe in the Ayran super-race?

I may not agree with it, but you have the freedom to do so. Once again, I'd rather you didn't, but it's your right.

 

[Solaris]

So I have the right to raise my kids as Nazis who believe in the Ayran super-race?

Hey Lemonkings mom did, and look how great he turned out.

 

[Absinthe]

To your first about Jews being inherently evil.

He never said that.

Are you even paying attention?

I may not agree with it, but you have the freedom to do so. Once again, I'd rather you didn't, but it's your right.

This is essentially freedom of child abuse.

What a sorry lot we are when we start raising our offspring as "Christian children", or "Muslim children", or "Jewish children". How cruel and deplorable it is to foist an entire worldview of guilt, sin, and bloodshed onto a child who has no ability to grasp its concepts.
You are entitled to teach your children about Judaism, not to them. At least when they're old enough, they'll be able to decide for themselves if its worth practicing. But I doubt many parents of faith would be willing to take such a risk since indoctrination is far easier.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

To your first about Jews being inherently evil. [...] REMEMBER: Nobody is perfect!

I did not say jews are inherently evil at all.
I said that your religion is evil, because it is homophobic and pro-slavery, and a huge pile of other negative things.
All those are valid reasons to dislike your religion.

Also, your religion is perfect. The torah tells us so, and it was handed down by God.

The sections that speak of destroying he who worships other gods you've taken out of context. This speaks of Jews that turn on their God to worship idols, not people of other religions.

I recall no such rule about the laws only applying to conversions.
I think you made it up.
It also doesn't say anything about "false idols." It says "other gods".
Don't make things up.

I don't see teaching my children and my children's children as conversion. I see that as passing on the tradition. You have a right to raise your children however you want.

You do not have a right to raise children "however you want", and you're just using doublespeak to replace "conversion of thousands of children" with "teaching tradition".

You are not teaching a tradition. You are teaching a religion.

There is one thing all [nations, philosophies and religions] have in common: they are bodies or constructs of a group of people who view the world in the same or similar ways.

Who cares? Philosophies are based mainly on logic. Religions are not.
Successful nations, as far as history is concerned, are based primarily on a philosophy and failed nations are based primarily on a religion.

I never said that only Islamic fundamentalists do violent things.

If other religions cause violence, then you have no real point here. Tell it to Lebanon.

Sure, the Biblical law says that we can't stray from the law, but that's the text. People do evolve, though. Most have moved past that. Those who haven't...well, I can't speak for them. But most of us have.

Deuteronomy 29:19-20

"If anyone should think to himself, "I will do well enough if I follow the dictates of my heart, Yahweh will not pardon him. His wrath shall burn against him. And all the curses written in the book will come upon him. Yahweh will single him out for misfortune and blot out his name from under heaven."

You are disobeying your religion. You are not allowed to "evolve."

When did I say I suppress my holy book? I don't follow it as literally as today's terrorists, but I certainly don't ignore it.

You just did.
Failing to follow the book literally is supression of its meaning and ignorance of its law.
The laws of god are not metaphors. That is why they are called laws. God says the laws are permanent and mandatory.
You are disobeying god by treating his laws as obsolete and/or optional.

I can see there's no convincing you; you are dead set on the belief that Jews are wrong in their every action and that there is no justification for whatever they do. But I must ask you: why? What is it you're trying to prove by hating us?

It should be easy to convince me.
All of my claims are supported by logic and evidence, and are thus easily falsifiable. So simply falsify them.

I did not say anywhere that "jews are wrong in every action".
That's a lie you made up.
I said that your religion has no justification.

I don't hate you; what I hate is the terrible violent religious ideology that even you have dismissed as "unevolved" - yet that you gladly teach to children anyways.

 

[Kadayi]

The Torah were written by the Israelites for the Israelites. All the laws in Exodus and Deuteronomy are wholly bound to the Covenant God make with the Israelites to act as his priests in the Land he has set aside for them (Israel). Gods intention was to create one holy nation that would act as an example to all other nations through it's piety. As far as the Jews are concerned the only laws gentiles are obliged to follow are those made under the earlier Covenant that God makes with Noah after the great flood because Noah is the father of all men (Jew and Gentile).

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Untrue, Kadayi. I don't see where it says that in the bible.
Could you provide a quote?

But even if it did, that would require that Ytse slaughter all non-jewish people in Israel, all jews who convert and all homosexual jews.
And, it would mean that all people must follow mandatory capital punishment for murderers (and people who eat blood).
"whoso sheddeth man's blood, and whoso eateth the blood of any flesh, shall all be destroyed from the earth."
Jubilees 7:20-28

It's no less barbaric, and it actually seems to mean that people who don't live in Israel aren't allowed to be jewish.
Lucky for them, there is a distinction between the Ethical Decalogue and the Deuteronomic Code.


But God says the laws must be followed by all future generations. There is no reference to location in that statement.
The laws must be upheld by all jews, lest they lose Israel, the sabbath, and become unholy.

 

[Kadayi]

But even if it did, that would require that Ytse slaughter all non-jewish people in Israel

When God refers to 'you' in the commandments given in Exodus and Deuteronomy , the 'you' he is addressing is the Israelites as a people and as his priests to be, not as a state (they are nomads at the time), as dictates of the covenant between them. There is no alien outsider involved when he addresses them, they the Israelites are the whole when he speaks, any other interpretation is based on false premises of global application. Trying to argue that those rules apply to all men, is like trying to argue that you as a customer are legally bound by the rules of the staff handbook of any store you enter. That a customer doesn't wash his hands, fails to wear a uniform, or is intoxicated on the premises doesn't mean he gets fired, because he's not an employee.

But God says the laws must be followed by all future generations. There is no reference to location in that statement.
The laws must be upheld by all jews, lest they lose Israel, the sabbath, and become unholy.

It's an over arching covenant made between the Israelites and God, that they agree to act as his priests in the one holy nation he designates for them on earth. This is covered at great length in Exodus, you should be familiar enough with it to know this, or are you denying God made a Covenant with the Israelites? That history might not of panned out in the Israelites favour regarding the retention of Israel has no relevance to it as a written work, even if it strikes one as a madness that such rules might only apply within it. That a people might choose to follow rules they are not technically bound to due to displacement as a matter of faith Vs circumstance is a testament to their faith tbf.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

When God refers to 'you' in the commandments given in Exodus and Deuteronomy , the 'you' he is addressing is the Israelites as a people and as his priests to be, not as a state (they are nomads at the time), as dictates of the covenant between them.

We are agreed then: God is refering the the Israelites as a people, and not as a state.

So surprise! Ytse is jewish and, thus, an Israelite.
His physical and temporal location is irrelevant

Also, I know how the mosaic covenant works: all Jews must follow all the laws, if they wish to remain God's chosen people.
The covenant has three parts after all, you know. Obtaining the "promised land" is only the second.
Being God's chosen people is the first, and having a day of rest on the Sabbath is the third.
Two out of three of these rewards make no reference to location, and are in fact universal.

You forget that even while they wandered the desert, god stayed at their side watching over them and punishing them for breaking the laws.

Numbers 15:32-35
While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was caught gathering wood on the Sabbath day.
Those who caught him gathering wood brought him before Moses, Aaron, and the whole community.
He was kept in custody because the penalty he should undergo had not yet been fixed.
Yahweh said to Moses, 'This man must be put to death. The whole community will stone him outside the camp.'

Leviticus 24:10-11
There was a man whose mother was an Israelite woman and whose father was an Egyptian.
Now the son of the Israelite woman blasphemed the Name and cursed it.
Leviticus 24:13
Yahweh spoke to Moses and said, 'Take the man who pronounced the curse outside the camp and the whole community must stone him.'

Numbers 25:5
With the Israelites thus [commiting idolatry] to the Baal of Peor, Yahweh's anger was aroused against them. He said to Moses, 'Take all the leaders of the Israelites and impale them facing the sun so that by this Yahweh's anger will be diverted from the Israelites.'

etc.

There is no alien outsider involved when he addresses them, they the Israelites are the whole when he speaks, any other interpretation is based on false premises of global application.

I am not arguing that the laws must apply to all men.
I am saying that, as a jew, Ytse must follow all the laws of his religion.
Stop with the straw men.

This is covered at great length in Exodus, you should be familiar enough with it to know this, or are you denying God made a Covenant with the Israelites?

Neither of those scenarios are true to this case.
You have simply not proven your claims adequately. Provide sources, please.

That history might not of panned out in the Israelites favour regarding the retention of Israel has no relevance to it as a written work, even if it strikes one as a madness that such rules might only apply within it. That a people might choose to follow rules they are not technically bound to due to displacement as a matter of faith Vs circumstance is a testament to their faith tbf.

You are saying that, at the very least, people in the country of Israel are supposed to follow all the "insane" laws of the old testament.

Thank you for agreeing with me, because that's exactly what I said.

 

[Nemesis6]

I'm a bit late, but anyway -

The reason that I feel so strong in my support of Israel is because it is of great value to us both technologically and historically, and humanly. They're the portion of the people we slaughtered about 1/3 of about 50 years ago, and as Wafa Sultan says - "The Jews have come from the tragedy (of the Holocaust), and forced the world to respect them, with their knowledge, not with their terror, with their work, not their crying and yelling."

They have created the first true democracy in the Middle-East, and we're the ones who are, once again, at their throats, along with the Muslims. They are so eager to bend over backwards for sworn enemies just for relative peace and quiet - For example, look at the Oslo Accords, and every single battle Israel has fought. In so many wars they have given back so much that they've rightfully taken from their enemy; Territory. And yet they allow themselves to be slaughtered by their neighbors whom we now find ourselves supporting through the disgusting U.N.. And they themselves even find themselves arming these guys, hoping that things will work out if they help the one who is just that tiny, tiny, tiny tad less kill-the-Jews-ish. That's the definition of a good people, albeit a naive one.

As for the religion of Judaism, my respect for it is stems from the way it has developed, much like Christianity, from something that is largely a stumbling block, to something that is compatible and a positive influence on the life of a modern person.

Jesus, peaceful or not? Is a positive influence? "But he was evil!" you probably think. I don't know if that's true, and it doesn't really matter to me that much, because sometimes, something created out of something ugly can become beautiful. And that's where Islam is different - Its followers have not rewritten the Quran ever, and that's why when someone tries to reinterpret it or revise it, their lives are in danger. Probably the same thing that happened to the ones rewriting the Bible.

Now, one bit of your post worried me - You said I was not killed or anything for talking bad about Islam. First of all, when have I done that? And second, that's because I live in Denmark. Although rolling along quite nicely, we're not Jumhuriye Daniyeh or whatever they want to call it just yet. That's why I can still speak about Islam - Because the resident Imams are not that many in numbers. But what they lack in numbers, they compensate for in 6th century death-cult ideology, hatred, and a deeply seeded hate for us and everything we are.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Right, so the jewish religion earns respect by abandonning the jewish religion in favor of secularism.

So, in the end, your praise is for secularism, which has nothing to do with the religion at all.


This isn't a case of something bad being turned into something good.
The contents of the bible have not changed in any fundamental way for over 1900 years, and the torah is far older.

The reality is that we have an bad thing and we have a good thing.
The bad thing is being killed by the good thing, and you are celebrating the bad thing for how it is so good at dying.
That doesn't make sense.


Also, your last question kind-of answered itself.

 

[Nemesis6]

Actually, the biggest reason I like Judaism more than anything is because it's the predecessor to Christianity, Islam, all the Abraham religions. For such an old religion to survive this day today, that's nothing short of amazing. And first, at THAT point, can I apply the whole "look at how it's developed" argument.

Didn't get the last question thing, though. If you mean badmouthing Islam, I don't get how I've done that. The Imams we have in in this country are horrible people and deserve to die. And luckily, one just did. Now THAT is something to praise God for! If you ask the common folk, they'll tell you what I've told you, only watered down because not many people feel that passionate about this matter.

I'd say my praise is for the Jewish people as a whole. They've seen the worst parts of humanity, and yet they still retain theirs today. Now, another reason I support them is also to counter-balance an ill-will towards them that has haunted them since the dawn of their forefather.



cl_sidetrack 1

That, and they have hot girls. Seriously, some of them are just... And if you look at them in uniforms...

cl_sidetrack 0

 

[Ytse Jam]

That, and they have hot girls. Seriously, some of them are just...

I can testify to that. :smoking: