kosovo

[Solaris]

Kosovo should regain Serbian majority. Too much history/sociological/economical significance for Serbia to lose. Don't believe it should be an Albanian state.


Then again, change is change and i've never lived there for an extended period of time.

Surely if a people, with their own unique ethnicity and culture wish to be independant from a country that waged a savage and brutal war against it less than ten years ago they should be allowed?

 

[Kula Meenur]

There's two sides to every story. My missus fled from the first. I also have a business associate who is Albanian and fought in the war. I also have few of slav mates from Croatia.

Hurts your noggin' just thinking about it

 

[Gray Fox]

Kosovo should regain Serbian majority. Too much history/sociological/economical significance for Serbia to lose. Don't believe it should be an Albanian state.


Then again, change is change and I've never lived there for an extended period of time.

Kosovo hasn't had a Serbian majority for centuries.
How exactly would you go about regaining a Serbian majority?

And how does some historical interest justify a Serbian rule in a region who's
majority doesn't want it for the same reason the Croats, Slovenians, and a
good deal of Bosnians didn't want it.

In fact the only historical rational behind it would be the concept of
greater Serbia a pipe dream of Serb nationalist. Which would mean you would
want the aforementioned countries to be returned to Serbia.

Now that we are at it, how do economic reason matter, should the British
empire have kept it's colonies because of their economic significance.

 

[Solaris]

There's two sides to every story. My missus fled from the first. I also have a business associate who is Albanian and fought in the war. I also have few of slav mates from Croatia.

Hurts your noggin' just thinking about it

That isn't an argument. If your not going to take part properlly then leave us alone.

 

[staticprimer]

That is an argument. The argument is that one should not view conflicts like these in such black and white terms.

 

[Kula Meenur]

Thank you very much Static, my point exactly. Solaris, are you looking for an argument?

 

[Combine_Advisor]

Kosovo hasn't had a Serbian majority for centuries.
How exactly would you go about regaining a Serbian majority?

And how does some historical interest justify a Serbian rule in a region who's
majority doesn't want it for the same reason the Croats, Slovenians, and a
good deal of Bosnians didn't want it.

In fact the only historical rational behind it would be the concept of
greater Serbia a pipe dream of Serb nationalist. Which would mean you would
want the aforementioned countries to be returned to Serbia.

Now that we are at it, how do economic reason matter, should the British
empire have kept it's colonies because of their economic significance.

Kosovo has been gained by albanians by slaghter!

 

[Solaris]

That is an argument. The argument is that one should not view conflicts like these in such black and white terms.

It does absolutely nothing to resolve the situation it's just a pointless euphemism - the number one giveaway of somebody who has nothing to say.

Kosovo has been gained by albanians by slaghter!

??? Actually, you will find, that's how Serbia gained Kosovo when it declared independance in the 1990's. It sent in troops and raped and murdered the civillian populace.

 

[Combine_Advisor]

It does absolutely nothing to resolve the situation it's just a pointless euphemism - the number one giveaway of somebody who has nothing to say.



??? Actually, you will find, that's how Serbia gained Kosovo when it declared independance in the 1990's. It sent in troops and raped and murdered the civillian populace.

You are tottaly uninformed and i do not wish to continue this disscusion!

 

[Solaris]

You are tottaly uninformed and i do not wish to continue this disscusion!

Then please leave, you've contributed nothing constructive anyway.

 

[Kula Meenur]

1. Nobody gives a shit what Solaris thinks.

Oh god how well this can be applied

It does absolutely nothing to resolve the situation it's just a pointless euphemism - the number one giveaway of somebody who has nothing to say.



??? Actually, you will find, that's how Serbia gained Kosovo when it declared independance in the 1990's. It sent in troops and raped and murdered the civillian populace.

Then please leave, you've contributed nothing constructive anyway.

Sol. You're being a rude, ignorant and arrogant ****.

 

[Combine_Advisor]

Oh god how well this can be applied






Sol. You're being a rude, ignorant and arrogant ****.

*THUMBSUP*

 

[Solaris]

*THUMBSUP*

Congratulations, you win the debate.

 

[staticprimer]

It does absolutely nothing to resolve the situation it's just a pointless euphemism - the number one giveaway of somebody who has nothing to say.

I'm not saying I have all the answers, I'm not qualified to create an absolute solution to this situation. And neither are you. I can tell you what is not a solution at this time; unilateral declaration of independence, not while both sides are still so raw. Based on the extent of my knowledge, for the long term semi-autonomy, a official version of the 'shadow government' that was built by Ibrahim Rhugova in the late 80's. That system was working well and if it had been left in place might have lead to an independent Kosovo that even the Serbs could acknowledge. But, it wasn't fast enough for Hashim Thaci and the KLA, who pushed Rhugova aside after he began negotiating (*gasp*) with the Serbian government.

 

[Nemesis6]

The last thing these ****heads need is independance, more land, etc, because we know they do with it. Generally speaking, the last thing Yugoslavia needs is talks about territory, they haven't learned a single damn thing, and that's why you hear these idiots going "Kosovo je Srbija!" - They're still stuck in a kind of Milosevic-era kind of thinking -- On to Potocari, kill the Turks!

What a truly stupid thing to do, to start dividing these territories which were formed by their own genocides and terror, that'll ensure that they do indeed never learn that they were not "defending Srbija from Albanian/Kosovar/etc aggression", and who else to hammer another nail into the coffin that is their societies' progression than the same people who could not stop them from massacring each other, and even helped them do so; the U.N.

 

[Solaris]

I think independant states on ethnic basis's but unified through something like the EU would be ideal.

 

[Mr Stabby]

I reckon we should send all the ethnic groups from the Balkans to live in the Holy lands.

 

[nurizeko]

I haven't really followed this thread but I assume Serbs have been labeled the baddies and Albanians the goodies?.

Just so you guys are aware, the Kosovan independence movement purposefully pushed the Serbs to the point where the international community would have to step in, they started it, amongst other things.

Crimes

Main article: 1998-present persecution of non-Albanians in Kosovo

There have been widespread reports of war crimes committed by the KLA both during and after the conflict. These have been directed against both Serbs, other ethnic minorities (principally Roma) and against ethnic Albanians accused of collaborating with the Serb authorities. [10] According to a 2001 report by Human Rights Watch (HRW):

The KLA was responsible for serious abuses… including abductions and murders of Serbs and ethnic Albanians considered collaborators with the state. [11]

It is also believed that the KLA has played a key role in the ethnic cleansing, kidnappings and murder of Serbs and other ethnic minorities after the end of the war. HRW writes:

Elements of the KLA are also responsible for post-conflict attacks on Serbs, Roma, and other non-Albanians, as well as ethnic Albanian political rivals... widespread and systematic burning and looting of homes belonging to Serbs, Roma, and other minorities and the destruction of Orthodox churches and monasteries... combined with harassment and intimidation designed to force people from their homes and communities... elements of the KLA are clearly responsible for many of these crimes. [12]

The KLA is also accused of intentionally provoking attacks by Yugoslav security forces against civilian targets by, for example, staging attacks from villages, knowing that the response would create bad publicity for the government forces in the international media:

The KLA… engaged in military tactics in 1998 and 1999 that put civilians at risk. KLA units sometimes staged an ambush or attacked police or army outposts from a village and then retreated, exposing villagers to revenge attacks. Large massacres sometimes ensued, helping publicize the KLA's cause and internationalize the conflict. [13]

Following the end of the war several of the leading figures in the KLA have been convicted of war crimes by the ICTY, including crimes against humanity (torture, murder, kidnapping and rape). [14][15] In 2005 the then ‘Prime Minister’ of Kosovo and former KLA commander, Ramush Haradinaj, was indicted together with two of his lieutenants on 37 counts of war crimes. According to the ICTY he was responsible for a plot to drive out Serbs and other ethnic minorities from Kosovo through a campaign of murder, rape and torture. [16] Despite this, Ramush Haradinaj remains popular with many Kosovo Albanians. [17]

The exact number of victims of the KLA is not known. According to a Serbian government report, from January 1, 1998 to June 10, 1999 the KLA killed 988 people and kidnapped 287; in the period from June 10, 1999 to November 11, 2001, when NATO took control in Kosovo, 847 were reported to have been killed and 1,154 kidnapped. This comprised both civilians and security force personnel: of those killed in the first period, 335 were civilians, 351 soldiers, 230 police and 72 were unidentified; by nationality, 87 of killed civilians were Serbs, 230 Albanians, and 18 of other nationalities. Following the withdrawal of Serbian and Yugoslav security forces from Kosovo in June 1999, all casualties were civilians, the vast majority being Serbs.[2] According to Human Rights Watch, as “many as one thousand Serbs and Roma have been murdered or have gone missing since June 12, 1999.” [18]

Carla Del Ponte, a long-time ICTY chief prosecutor claimed in her book The Hunt: Me and the War Criminals that there were instances of organ trafficking in 1999 after the end of the Kosovo War. These allegations were dismissed by Kosovan and Albanian authorities as fabrications while the ICTY stated no substantial evidence supporting the allegations was brought to the court.[21][22] Human Rights Watch called for an investigation into Del Ponte's claims and announced it had additional evidence on the matter. [23]

[edit] Armament

I wont comment on who I think has rights to Kosovo because the whole region is a mess of ethnic tension, suffice to say this situation would probably be much smoother if the Albanians were seen as owning their fair share of disgusting ethnic cleansing and racist behaviour as well as the Serbs, who aren't innocent by far, but are hardly the sole nation guilty of having blood on its hands there.

I reckon we should send all the ethnic groups from the Balkans to live in the Holy lands.

**** me, CNN and the likes would have a field day. Shame the holy land is too small to accommodate the Balkan peoples and the Israeli's/Arabs.

 

[Gray Fox]

There are two sides in every conflict. There were two side to WWII, the
allies committed countless war crimes, does that justify any of Hitlers
actions. Does the bombing of Dresden mean the allies had no right to land
on the beaches of Normandy.

It's a straw man, if used as a reason against Kosovo's independence.
What matters is the fact that Kosovo has had a nearly homogeneous
Albanian population for well over a century, a population which does not
want to be under Serbian rule, which it was in practice.



The Kosovo conflict happened while Serbia was under the same
administration under which Croatia, Slovenia, and Bosnia seceded and the
ensuing genocide happened.


Here is a condensation by me of a Wiki article on the subject:

Kosovo seceded because Milosevic changed the constitution of 1974
which had granted the province of Kosova as well as the other states a lot of
autonomy. This started long before Milosevic though, throughout the 1980's
around 580.000 inhabitants of Kosovo were jailed. In 1990 Milosevic
completely revoked the autonomy of Vojvodina and Kosovo, this gave him
more control over the region as well as enough votes to change the
aforementioned constitution. He disbanded Kosovo's government and assembly,
about 80.000 Albanians were fired from their state jobs. Many other had
the choice of signing a pledge or be fired from various state owned
industries.

Broadcasting in Albanian was banned, as well publishing newspapers in
Albanian. And it ceased to be the official language. 800 lecturers at Pristina
University were sacked and 22,500 of the 23,000 students expelled. Around
40.000 Yugoslav troops replaced the original Albanian security forces.
About 80% of it's population become unemployed.

Albanians did try to peacefully resist under the leadership of Ibrahim
Rugova, by boycotting official election, not paying tax, and establishing
parallel social services like education and hospitals to those who were
state owned. The first attack by the KLA wasn't untill 1996.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War




Wiki does not give sources for the situation pre 1996. However multiple
sources from NATO to BBC do say the same regarding the loss of autonomy
and peaceful resistance by Ibrahim.

MSNBC does support a good deal of the wiki article:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23292619/

Nato:
http://www.nato.int/kosovo/history.htm

BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/special_report/1998/kosovo/110492.stm

Wiki does have some reliable sources for the casualty figures, including
long articles by human rights watch.

HRW
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/kosovo/undword.htm
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/kosovo/undword-03.htm

 

[Solaris]

Very good post their Gray Fox.

Nurezio claims the KLA started it, when they didn't even commit a military operation till after Serbia commited the abuses you claimed.

Blaiming the Albanians for what happened is too excuse Serbias genocide as a reaction against the KLA.

It's like blaming the Jews for the Holocaust becuase of the six day war in Isreal. It completely misunderstands the timeline of events and appropiates the blame at the wrong people.

Shameful.

 

[15357]

Free for all. Enough said.

 

[TwwIX]

Serbia is just getting a nice dose of Karma, that is all.

 

[The_E]

The Kosovo situation should be viewed from the side of logic not Albanian or Serbian side.Kosovo is a shithole.There economy is...well..pure shit.Their prime minister and the president were part of the KLA wich is a terrorist group so corruption certainly will live a long life there.The avarage monthly paycheck is about 150 Euros wich is 200 dollars.So the people of Kosovo should stick to Serbia ( Wich is like the USA to Ethiopia in comparison to Kosovo ) until their economy gets better,and perhaps even longer.And yes i am half Serb ( half Croat )

 

[TwwIX]

The Kosovo situation should be viewed from the side of logic not Albanian or Serbian side.

And yes i am half Serb ( half Croat )

lol some logic.
Biased much?