L4D needs some serious work.

Pesmerga

Newbie
Joined
Dec 31, 2004
Messages
10,089
Reaction score
8
L4D is fun. It's really fun to play with people you know, and especially so if it's a Versus game. Valve did a wonderful job with it. I've played it a lot, a LOT, with a lot of different people and have had a lot of different experiences.

But it needs a lot of fundamental work.

The AI Director is a joke
"Each time you play, it's a new experience". Sure- zombie hordes and tanks and witches spawn at greatly different times, but the average rate of them appearing on a map are pretty constant. I feel as if the Director is a largely useless part of L4D. The solution? To create actual dynamic experiences in L4D campaigns, let the director randomly choose from a range of "moods" that impact not only how the zombies spawn and attack, but how the actual environment looks and by cutting off / opening up new paths depending on the mood of the round.

For instance, a focus on hordes rather than tanks, witches, and bosses. Boomers will spawn more increasingly, hordes will be larger and more punishing. Tanks and witches should be nonexistent unless it is a crescendo moment. Hunters and smokers should be rare.

Alternatively, a focus on boss infected. Larger amounts of pre-populated zombies but very few horde moments. Cuts off the usual path of the campaign and opens up a longer, more precarious route that gives boss infected an extreme advantage (lots of cliffs, lots of heights, and lots of nooks and crannies for bosses to escape into), with usual tank and witch placements.

Moods could very well set the theme of the campaign itself- dawn, midnight, foggy, rainy, snow, lots of dramatic lights, very few lights, ambient sound changes, etc.

Finales suck
Finales suck. They're boring compared to the majority of the campaign. Setting up shop and holding the fort is just blegh, especially since the tanks are the only real way to win. It's too predictable- it switches from Horde to Tank to Horde to Tank and then to the getaway. Solution? Give the survivors objectives to accomplish when waiting for evac. For instance, on the rooftop finale of No Mercy, the survivors ought to have to turn on a set of landing lights or beacons or some arbitrary objective during the first horde (a horde that doesn't stop coming until those objectives are met). Giving the survivors something to do while waiting for evac ensures closet/corner camping isn't a problem, and the objectives ought to reinforce teamwork.

Infected bosses are lame
There's 3 of them which are played the most. Usually, the setup is 2 hunters, 1 smoker, 1 boomer. Hunters are useless. Smokers are effective, but boomers are really the golden star winners when it comes to stopping a survivor team in Versus. Boomers are wonderfully designed, but hunters and smokers are, by in large, useless without the accompaniment of a zombie horde or a tank. New boss infected characters should be introduced, and old ones should be balanced or reinvented.

That's all I have to say so far on L4D. What are you thoughts on my thoughts, or what are your thoughts on L4D and how it can be improved?
 
Yeah, all in all I agree with you. It would be nice to have those changes, but its not a gamebreaker for me right now.
 
let the director randomly choose from a range of "moods" that impact not only how the zombies spawn and attack, but how the actual environment looks and by cutting off / opening up new paths depending on the mood of the round.

Alternatively, a focus on boss infected. Larger amounts of pre-populated zombies but very few horde moments. Cuts off the usual path of the campaign and opens up a longer, more precarious route that gives boss infected an extreme advantage (lots of cliffs, lots of heights, and lots of nooks and crannies for bosses to escape into), with usual tank and witch placements.

Moods could very well set the theme of the campaign itself- dawn, midnight, foggy, rainy, snow, lots of dramatic lights, very few lights, ambient sound changes, etc.

I love these ideas the most...it's fun to imagine, but I doubt we'll ever see such a large change in the way L4D works.
 
I played the campaign mode once and some Versus but yeah it feels kinda broken. I'll come back to it when they add more content but when Steam had it for $40 I couldn't refuse. Its still a solid ride, but its like going to the same Amusement park all summer long with a season pass, it gets boring unless you go with more friends you know and you do stupid things to make it funny
 
random pathway is great. I don't think it is really that difficult to implant it.
 
I agree with the Finale bit, and the boss effects do all come at once every few minutes. I suppose the objective thing would actually be an awesome idea, but I can't think of things to complete for all 4 campaigns. Dead Air could be opening some gates which lead onto the runway or something, I think No Mercy would be the easiest to impliment objectives to, theres like 5 lights, all survivors travelling to each one while fighting off hordes and tanks would be alot more challenging.
 
I agree with the Finale bit, and the boss effects do all come at once every few minutes. I suppose the objective thing would actually be an awesome idea, but I can't think of things to complete for all 4 campaigns. Dead Air could be opening some gates which lead onto the runway or something, I think No Mercy would be the easiest to impliment objectives to, theres like 5 lights, all survivors travelling to each one while fighting off hordes and tanks would be alot more challenging.

Dead Air would be maybe to replace the pump or change the pump around maybe, if the tank gets drained before the plane is fully fueled? Dunno how that would work though.
 
Finales suck
Finales suck. They're boring compared to the majority of the campaign. Setting up shop and holding the fort is just blegh, especially since the tanks are the only real way to win. It's too predictable- it switches from Horde to Tank to Horde to Tank and then to the getaway. Solution? Give the survivors objectives to accomplish when waiting for evac. For instance, on the rooftop finale of No Mercy, the survivors ought to have to turn on a set of landing lights or beacons or some arbitrary objective during the first horde (a horde that doesn't stop coming until those objectives are met). Giving the survivors something to do while waiting for evac ensures closet/corner camping isn't a problem, and the objectives ought to reinforce teamwork.

Extremely good idea, stands above the rest of your suggestions.
 
Great ideas i have found L4D to be far to predictable as the Director usually always spawns hordes in the same set places so you know where to expect them. And the idea of having to objectives to do during the finales would make it alot more interesting than just closet camping. I hope Valve do bring in some of these changes.
 
All of your ideas are brilliant, especially about different paths during different playthroughs. I used to think that the hunter was useless too, but now that I know how to use it, it can be quite useful.
 
The ideas are good, but I...

A.) Have absolutely no doubt that these will not happen, in the slightest of bits.

B.) I'm not really too worried about it, as I have a feeling when the SDK is released, and the last 2 campaigns are Versus'd, I'll have enough fun to forget, as people will be making custom maps, adding to the originals, etc.

I DO wish the director was a bit different. There are certain things you can GUARANTEE will happen... Example is after a Tank, expect 1 of each boss to come after to. Better hope you're not alone, or you have a slim chance of winning.
 
I agree very strongly with the finale bit. The special infected are a bit underpowered on their own, but the point is to effectively attack as a team. It would be pretty stupid if the most effective infected plan was: Spawn, immediately attack, spawn, immediately attack.... The director is fairly predictable and dull, and some changes on how he works would be welcome.
 
Yea I agree with most points, the finales definitely need to be spiced up a bit and the hunters and smokers need powering up since they are useless unless the human team are being swarmed by a hoard or occupied by a tank.
 
I don't really agree with that at all. Hunters are deadly when you separate survivors. On fire and you are doing some serious damage, not to mention the huge jump damage if you get up high.

Smokers are the most useless class because they do bugger all damage, are easy to spot and hear. They are really a support for boomer and hunter. Although hunter can support smoker if the need arises.

Finales and crescendos are fun, I don't think they last too long. At the moment I think L4D needs more content, I'm not heavily concerned about the basics of gameplay. Make the other two campaigns versus.
 
Tip of the day. To make hunters more effective, light them on fire.
 
A big problem with Smokers is that is very difficult to hide yourself since you always have smoke around you. And when you do get someone you can't move and if the survivor gets freed from your grip 99% your dead cause your already move very slow yet move even slower when shot, so that and your pitiful health makes escape impossible. Already now in Versus i always know where to look for Smokers, they don't have many good areas to hide. What i really would like is the removal of stun kills on Hunters it's so very cheap. You melee them and there's nothing they can do and even though it doesn't effect the health of the Hunter 3 melee hits and your dead. So even if you do get away with full health if they melee you again your dead. It Removes all skill from the game as too often i see Survivors go into a room just melee spamming hoping to get a Hunter.
 
A big problem with Smokers is that is very difficult to hide yourself since you always have smoke around you. And when you do get someone you can't move and if the survivor gets freed from your grip 99% your dead cause your already move very slow yet move even slower when shot, so that and your pitiful health makes escape impossible.

I would also like to see the Smoker be able to move once it has a survivor. That way when you are on a rooftop you can move back a little from the edge. Or another idea could be that once you have a survivor wrapped you can tear your tongue off and tie if off to something and go get more survivors.
 
Being able to leave an attack whenever you'd like would be good, but moving while smokering would be pretty overpowered.
 
I think Smoker really needs a buff. His tongue can still be melee'd before he's stopped dragging his victim and even if they get a good drag it takes forever to do any damage and its pretty much one shot and again, they drop the survivor, leaving them unable to move for a second, then they just get killed.

I like the idea of being able to move a little once he has someone wrapped in his tongue, would really help him drag someone away. Also with a fix to the tongue getting melee'd before he's stopped dragging and a bit of a damage buff the smoker, not the same amount of damage per second as a hunter but an extra damage or two would really help; it would really put him on par with the hunter then at least.

I think hunters are fine the way they are, they're really effective at stopping people from running off alone, and with a good pounce and some fire thrown into the mix they do a lot of damage.

Boomers are also fine the way they are, but lately i've been puking all over the survivors but it hasnt registered, not sure if that was the server or a bug, but its annoying. But a good boomer will always stop the survivors in their tracks.

Witches... I think they need more health or some way of stopping people with shotguns just running up to her and killing her instantly. Maybe make it so damage can only be dealt to her when shes got her arms spread out running towards the person who startled her?

Tanks I'm not really sure about. One thing that is annoying with them is that a team with green health that are out in the open or somewhere not so easy to navigate will always outrun the tank. I know the tank can throw rocks at them but often by the time he's thrown it the survivors are pretty far away making them hard targets to hit. Maybe some more bashable objects around the levels maybe?

Edit: oh yeah, Sheepo, I've always liked the idea of being able to stop attacking someone.
 
Another tip: if you're a hunter and the survivors are in a small area, like the sewer, and constantly stick together, you can usually run up behind them and melee them three or four times before they notice you. Since the hunter's melee does ten damage per hit, it can be pretty devastating to the survivors.

EDIT: also, the hunter doesn't make a noice when he doesn't crouch so you can be sneaky when running up behind them.
 
Thing about the Smoker is that I dont think he is really meant to single handedly kill anyone, but he can take people out of the picture much easier than a Hunter, so if you are good with timing you can snag a straggler where its impossible for anyone to get back to, or if someone is already downed or hit by a Hunter you can snag the guy going to save the other survivor.

In the games I have played, Smokers and Boomers are the most useful infected for a player to control.
 
I've never once, ever, had the smoker help enough, unless the other team were just not paying attention or something. The problem is if they are looking around, paying attention...he's useless. He'll get a couple damage from dragging off maybe, but his attacks are so utterly slow, he does little to no dmg, and when he is pulling, a survivor can run up faster than your pulling and melee him off. OK, well, I personally think the melee shouldn't work on removing the tongue. I think you should have to SHOOT the tongue to free....OR make the tongue pull faster. I mean, I'd rather do some dmg then pull the survivor 3 ft and die, then wait 30 seconds to spawn again
 
A faster tongue all the way. I also think that if you've pulled in a survivor all the way, and the smoker is meleeing the survivor, it should do more damage. It does very little now.
 
Oh, I'd like to propose that we agree these special infected buffs should only be applied in versus mode. Are we all in agreement?

/me monocle in, gavel in hand
 
I agree that the smoker is more of a support class, but I disagree with the smoker buff ideas. I think the smoker is an extremely good class, especially after the latest changes. Not on its own, as it shouldn't be, but as a part of the group. A good smoker is often the key to a succesful attack on the survivors. It's just that playing the smoker tends to require quite a bit more experience in knowing the best spots/moments to use it.

One of the best ways to start an attack is to have a smoker snag from behind the 4th survivor of the moving group. That means 1-2 survivors will turn around and either start shooting at the direction of the Smoker or start running towards the dragged survivor. The Hunters pounce those survivors. At the same time, the Boomer spawns nearby and barfs on the last one and the pounced ones, if possible. If it's not a win, it's a get-rid-of-those-pesky-medkits-attack. Starting the attack with the Smoker, instead of, say, Hunters, gives you those crucial 1-2 seconds extra to scatter the group a bit in order to land those pounces AND not have them melee'd off within seconds.

The Smoker is all about scattering a group that sticks together and thus enabling succesful hunter attacks. Having the smoker drag a survivor from a higher platform down to the ground brings with it countless opportunities for great attacks. Dragging a survivor from the slanting roof during the gas station crescendo, or from the minigun all the way down to the lowest platform in the No Mercy finale, or from the warehouse ramps in the beginning of Blood Harvest 2 all basically split the group into two and make it really easy to dish out massive damage with Hunters/Boomers. There are countless opportunities like that throughout the maps and very often all you need is a single Hunter to assist you to cause huge problems for the survivor team. Add another Hunter and a Boomer and the s**t really hits the fan.

Smoker's good for finishing off teams too. If there are a few survivors on the ground and a few still standing, killing the last few with Hunters is much harder since the guys on the ground can easily shoot them off. Smoker, however, can easily take one of the guys still standing since the accuracy of the folks on the ground is so bad that it's next to impossible to hit anything more than 10 metres away.

I'm sure there are many many many more ways of using the Smoker in a good way, it's just a bit more strategic/indirect class than Hunters/Boomers.

EDIT: I totally agree about the changes to finales the OP suggested. The core game-mechanics of L4D are brilliant, but I hope there'd be something else to do within the game than just running from point A to point B or holding your ground. I'm sure, though, that once the SDK is released, a lot of folks will bring out stuff that extends the experience into many different directions, while keeping in place the core game-mechanics of random zombie barrage from all directions.
 
I would like to see more dynamic paths (as you said) that you can take, rather than the usual HL formula in which there's one path and one path only. I'd also like to see some more types of Special Infected in the future.
 
I completely disagree on the uselessness of a hunter and smoker if played in the right hands. They can completely destroy a team
 
Wait, someone said the Hunter sucked? He does so much damned damage.
 
I think that if the smoker grabs people from above, once he had dragged them underneath him directly, it should start pulling the survivor UPWARDS. If the tongue is shot and broken, the short fall does fall damage so the Smoker can actually do a bit more damage. When they hang there, it's easy to bash them free and no damage is hardly done :(
 
Dragging upwards sounds cool, but it could also be far too devestating against the humans if they are dropped from quite high. I remember dieing just from falling out of the window that leads out onto the top of those rail-cranes at the start of chapter two Blood Harvest, so I'd hate to imagine what it would be like from a little higher or the same.

I think maybe high enough just so the guy can't be melee'd lose, and that when he drops he loses a little health. That way the only way to break free would be someone having to take a careful shot at the tongue.
 
Back
Top