Lamarr, the troublemaker... and storybuilder? :>

[Chrysalid]

Alright, this might sound pretty stupid but I will say it anyway. I found it really funny that Lamarr is responsible of the destruction of the Citadel (!). Well, not directly, but as the whole teleport incident was caused by Lamarr jumping out of a vent shaft and intefering with the teleport device, Combine waking up and raiding the city, and the destruction of Nova Prospekt igniting an uprising.

And all of this was triggered by a mean pet Headcrab Pretty funny but kinda unusual when you think it. Still, it's one of the best parts of the whole storyline.
Without Lamarr however, the teleport thing would have gone just fine and Gordon would have just been doing some inexiting lab work for the rest of his life

Any comments on this?

 

[ríomhaire]

No. With Gordon as a figurehead the resisitance would have rose up eventualy, Lamarr was simply the catalist.

 

[Darkside55]

That's also wrong, to call Lamarr the catalyst. Had Lamarr never interfered with the teleport, Gordon would've arrived at BME half-a-day earlier, done some labwork until Mossman pulled the whistle on Black Mesa East, and Gordon would've still had to travel into Nova Prospekt.

 

[losermeetsworld]

If Lamarr hadn't screwed things up, and Gordon did arrive at BME and worked as a scientist, when Mossman called the Combine.. He probibly wouldn't be in the HEV suit, and would be defenselessly shot as a mere scientist.

 

[ríomhaire]

That's also wrong, to call Lamarr the catalyst. Had Lamarr never interfered with the teleport, Gordon would've arrived at BME half-a-day earlier, done some labwork until Mossman pulled the whistle on Black Mesa East, and Gordon would've still had to travel into Nova Prospekt.

But Gordon in Breens chamber was what set the citadel on full alert. They attacked because of Gordon.
"Although we could have attacked at any time the capture of Eli Vance cowincided with the act of harbouring Gordon Freeman"

 

[Darkside55]

I think it was simply a lucky coincidence. I don't think Breen pushed Dr. Mossman to reveal the location of Black Mesa East any harder just because of Dr. Freeman's appearance. If so, why didn't the Combine attack that morning? Why wouldn't they have been waiting for Freeman?

When you first get to BME and Eli tells you to take a look around, go through the door near the elevator. Dr. Mossman's in that room with a bank of computers overlooking everything going on in Black Mesa East, and she seems really startled to see you. Then she pushes you out and locks the door on you. She's calling the Combine right then. She's giving you up, RIGHT THEN. Even if you had gotten to the lab via the teleporter, she would've called up Breen and told him, "Gordon Freeman is here." So even without Lamarr, the Combine would've been alerted of your presence. Lamarr's interference simply set it up earlier, and caused you to take the long way. Everything following your arrival to Black Mesa East can be played as if you took the teleporter, and it'll be exactly the same.

 

[ríomhaire]

I think it was simply a lucky coincidence. I don't think Breen pushed Dr. Mossman to reveal the location of Black Mesa East any harder just because of Dr. Freeman's appearance. If so, why didn't the Combine attack that morning? Why wouldn't they have been waiting for Freeman?

When you first get to BME and Eli tells you to take a look around, go through the door near the elevator. Dr. Mossman's in that room with a bank of computers overlooking everything going on in Black Mesa East, and she seems really startled to see you. Then she pushes you out and locks the door on you. She's calling the Combine right then. She's giving you up, RIGHT THEN. Even if you had gotten to the lab via the teleporter, she would've called up Breen and told him, "Gordon Freeman is here." So even without Lamarr, the Combine would've been alerted of your presence. Lamarr's interference simply set it up earlier, and caused you to take the long way. Everything following your arrival to Black Mesa East can be played as if you took the teleporter, and it'll be exactly the same.

I think they already knew Gordon was there, what with the trail of dead metrocops and all...

 

[Sam]

I thought Mossman had already revealed the location of BME, and knew Gordon was en route. She would've informed Breen that he was coming and then when he arrived. Breen then just went ahead and attacked BME.

 

[Darkside55]

I think they already knew Gordon was there, what with the trail of dead metrocops and all...

Heh, perhaps, but I'm not going to give Breen and the Combine that much credit. The point is, whether or not they followed you, Mossman WAS contacting Breen at that time.

Sam, you could be right, but I highly doubt that Breen would've waited to attack for so long if he HAD known where BME is. Until that morning, no one in the resistance knew when Gordon was coming, and Breen was probably unaware that he'd even return. If he didn't know that Gordon was coming, why would he sit on that information (the location of BME) for so long? The speech that riomhaire quoted was just posturing, empty lies to scare the rebels.

Also, Mossman really does love Eli, so why would she tell Breen where BME is before Gordon's arrival? She'd probably been stalling and telling Breen that she'll reveal it sooner or later, just give her time to work with Eli and perfect the teleport (which also just happened that morning), or other excuses. With Freeman's arrival, that was pretty much it, it was now or never. Which means that no matter how Freeman got to BME, the Combine still would've attacked, Eli still would've been captured, and you still would've gone to Nova Prospekt and incited the rebellion.

 

[cquinn]

Heh, perhaps, but I'm not going to give Breen and the Combine that much credit. The point is, whether or not they followed you, Mossman WAS contacting Breen at that time.

Keep in mind why she was in contact with Breen, and what both sides
hoped to gain from negotiating. And it doesn't take much credit
to notice a pattern of bases going offline leading downriver from
City17.

Sam, you could be right, but I highly doubt that Breen would've waited to attack for so long if he HAD known where BME is.

The Combine (Breen) had to wait until they had proof of a working teleport
machine from Drs. Kleiner and Vance. Mossman was also feeding him the
results of that research, which they were using to build their own prototype
at Nova Prospekt.

Also, Mossman really does love Eli, so why would she tell Breen where BME is before Gordon's arrival? She'd probably been stalling and telling Breen that she'll reveal it sooner or later, just give her time to work with Eli and perfect the teleport (which also just happened that morning), or other excuses.

I don't think she gave away BME's location, but then it was not that hard
to find. It would just have been a wasted effort to search down the
river for a few stragglers joining the resistance. What Mossman was
doing apparently, was feeding enough information to Breen for them
to be a couple of steps behind in perfecting a teleport machine.
They were either planning on using that against Breen when the
time was right, or Mossman was hoping to sell the technology to
Breen in exchange for safe passage for the resistance members.

With Freeman's arrival, that was pretty much it, it was now or never.

They were already planning the final test of the teleporter that day,
Freeman's arrival only facilitated things. If he had not been there,
Lamarr would have stayed locked up in the room with the HEV suit,
and the teleport test would have gone off with only a few minor
glitches.

(Assuming it was Lamarr's interference that caused the teleport to
malfunction, Gordon does not seem to have much luck with
interdimensional gateways in the first place.)

Which means that no matter how Freeman got to BME, the Combine still would've attacked, Eli still would've been captured, and you still would've gone to Nova Prospekt and incited the rebellion.

No necessarily, if things had gone as planned, they would have been
able to place a lot more resistance members at BME, as well as shoring
up the hideouts along Highway 17, or moving everyone out in an assault
against Nova Prospekt, to gain control of the other teleport platform.

 

[Darkside55]

Mossman was dealing with Breen for, among other things, scientific recognition and (as her bracelet says) progress. And as suggested by the scene in Breen's office, she was also forced into it (if only a little, and after showing willingness to work with Breen in the first place). This is all irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

And about the bases being easy to find: you'd think so, but aside from the barn outpost--which was so out-in-the-open it might as well have had a sign--, they hadn't found ANY of them, had they? Dr. Kleiner's lab was behind the train station and they couldn't even manage to find that.

The Combine (Breen) had to wait until they had proof of a working teleport machine from Drs. Kleiner and Vance. Mossman was also feeding him the results of that research, which they were using to build their own prototype at Nova Prospekt.

Breen has expressed his faith in Judith multiple times; he felt she was more than capable of handling the teleporter project herself. Eli also comments on her abilities. With this in mind, and considering the type of person Breen is, I think he would've been persistently badgering her to give up Eli and Black Mesa East. The only reason she didn't was because, as I said, she loves Dr. Vance. If Breen had known where BME is, make no mistake, he would've had Combine soldiers there in an instant.

I don't think she gave away BME's location, but then it was not that hard to find. It would just have been a wasted effort to search down the river for a few stragglers joining the resistance. What Mossman was doing apparently, was feeding enough information to Breen for them to be a couple of steps behind in perfecting a teleport machine. They were either planning on using that against Breen when the time was right, or Mossman was hoping to sell the technology to Breen in exchange for safe passage for the resistance members.

There is absolutely NO QUESTION that she gave away the location of Black Mesa East. It could not be clearer unless she were to actually say, "I told Dr. Breen where Black Mesa East is," and put it in writing. This is indisputable fact. I do apologize if this sounds a little harsh, but please go back and watch the events of the chapters Black Mesa East and Nova Prospekt again.

And yes, she was relaying teleporter information to Breen. I don't think she was providing outdated information to him in order to keep his teleporter from being as good as the resistance's, but that's open to discussion. The idea of Mossman selling the information to him, in exchange for their lives, is an interesting theory. Personally I think she was just trying to show Breen that Eli would be useful to the Combine (in order to keep him alive). Before the "Breenscene," we see Judith as being a little spineless...the way she cows before Dr. Breen, and how she says that she could've never broken free of his influence without everyone backing her (the turning point in her character). I think that before that moment, she hadn't even thought of escaping Dr. Breen. She was probably hoping that she could show Dr. Breen how valuable Eli is, both as a scientist and as one of the leaders of the resistance, and they would both work together for the Combine.

By "Freeman's appearance meant now-or-never," I didn't mean that if Freeman hadn't appeared they weren't going to test the teleport. I meant that when Freeman got to BME, she could no longer stall. She felt she had to tell Dr. Breen the location right then. Now, if Freeman hadn't arrived that day...who knows what the result would've been? Would she still have given up BME? Would she have sold the information, like you say, or would she give up Eli and try to bargain for him to work for the Combine? Who knows.

But because Freeman DID appear, she DID call Dr. Breen. And as far as we know, the teleporter being activated that day was only to facilitate moving citizens out of City 17 into safe locations, NOT to be used as a way to move troops from one area to another. There were only two teleporters, so resistance bases along the coast could not be readily enforced just because the teleporter was working. Remember that this teleporter was such that it needed a receiver and a transmitter; it couldn't transport people anywhere. The only reason that occured with Freeman is because of unforseen interference.
Also, the resistance would not have mobilized against Nova Prospekt, because no one in the resistance, save for Dr. Mossman, knew about the other teleporter. And fat chance that she'd say, "BTW, I've been working as a double agent for the Combine; we should probably go and take out the teleporter they've been building that's based on your design."

 

[Zoetrap]

Well at least Eli and Alyx knew about the combine teleporter as well. When Eli arrives at the teleporter chamber in chapter Entanglement he says: "So THIS is the combine teleporter... it's a lot smaller than I expected" or something like that.

 

[Sam]

I think Mossman had indeed been stalling, telling Breen that the teleport would be completed fastest if it was developed there. Breen saying that it was possible to capture Eli at any time and Mossman telling Breen that he should've waited for her signal indicate that Mossman had told Breen the location of BME.

 

[Darkside55]

Well at least Eli and Alyx knew about the combine teleporter as well. When Eli arrives at the teleporter chamber in chapter Entanglement he says: "So THIS is the combine teleporter... it's a lot smaller than I expected" or something like that.

It's possible Eli might've known. I really doubt it though...the chances of Mossman revealing to Eli that she was helping them construct a teleporter is extremely small. He might've assumed it was their technology, like the massive dark reactor teleporter, which is why the comment. Alyx, on the other hand, definately didn't know. Listen to what she says and how she reacts to seeing the teleporter; it's something like, "Oh my God...what is this?" She obviously saw the resemblance and put two-and-two together; Eli might not have.

I think Mossman had indeed been stalling, telling Breen that the teleport would be completed fastest if it was developed there. Breen saying that it was possible to capture Eli at any time and Mossman telling Breen that he should've waited for her signal indicate that Mossman had told Breen the location of BME.

Again, posturing. You really have to understand Dr. Breen's character here. First of all, if Judith told him that the teleporter would be completed easier at BME, he would've said something like, "If you work on the teleporter here, you'll have all the resources of our benefactors to help facilitate its construction." He would not have let pithy excuses deter him from assaulting Black Mesa East, had he truly known its whereabouts.

Secondly, he made the remark about the capture of Dr. Vance over Breencast. Think of who he was speaking to: members of the resistance, and the citizens of City 17. Think of the persona he's trying to give the Combine: an almost omniprescent, omnisentient organization. He's attempting to make it sound like he knew where one of the resistance leaders was hiding all along. What he's basically saying is, "I know you're out there, and I know where you are. We can come for you at any time. You are not safe, no matter where you hide." It's a scare tactic. If you are hiding, there is no thought more terrifying than thinking that your persuer knows where you are. Do you believe Dr. Breen is above lying? That everything he says over Breencast is the truth?

Dr. Breen is the sort of person who twists situations and information to his advantage; in order to keep a relative peace in City 17, he tells citizens that the Combine (the true Combine) are there to benefit them. He tells them that everything will be fine. In order to convince people that harboring Dr. Freeman is a threat to their safety, the first Breencast he makes about him is how Dr. Freeman is almost directly responsible for the BMRF incident. When the citizens do not listen, he tries to get them to comply through rewards, and states that noncompliance will similarly be met with punishment. Finally, when BME is taken, he is basically saying, "I told you so. We got Eli Vance because he tried to hide Gordon Freeman." That's completely false. He got Eli Vance because he found out where BME is, and the fact that Gordon Freeman was there was only coincidence.

Again, I'm going to say this about Dr. Breen, and try to think of his character when you read this: do you really think that he would hold the information of where Black Mesa East is because some lovestruck woman told him not to act on it? That he would continue to allow one of the Combine's greatest opposers to exist freely outside of Combine influence, free to work on a technology whose sole purpose was to destabilize the control of Dr. Breen's benefactors?

 

[jerkasaur]

the question is, why didn't breen attack BME before, while he could?, that might mean breen was aware that gordon would return, eventually, and waited for the right time. i mean like it wasn't a short time that Eli and Mossman were working together.

 

[Cormeh]

If Lamarr hadn't screwed things up, and Gordon did arrive at BME and worked as a scientist, when Mossman called the Combine.. He probibly wouldn't be in the HEV suit, and would be defenselessly shot as a mere scientist.

Remember, he attains the HEV suit before the attempted teleportation experiment. So he would have passed onto BME in the suit, just un-armed.

 

[cquinn]

I think what losermeetsworld meant was that if Gordon had made it
to BME as planned, he would have had time to change out of the
HEV suit into a lab coat or something, before the Combine attack.

Thats assuming they would not have had him helping with some
experiment that would require him still wearing the suit.