Let's stop acting as reporters and actually discuss solutions

[RakuraiTenjin]

I'm guilty of this bigtime too, but it would improve the politics forum quite a bit.

We shouldn't just post a news story. In fact, if a post is just a news story it should probably go in off topic.

The two recent immigration threads are the only ones that I can think of that had actual discussion on plausible policies/debate on how to improve them. Not just debate to prove who's right, but debate like it's meant- to arrive at a common ground with the strongest solution.

From now on when we make a topic, we should post solutions to the problem, viable ones, be it about things from Iraq to water treatment.

:cheers:

 

[CptStern]

could work for some issues ..but not for say iraq

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

could work for some issues ..but not for say iraq

Why not? There's always going to be people simply saying pull out completely- at least they're saying something. But the rest of us- we should opine on what we feel that particular issue could use.

Perhaps talk on actions the Iraqi parliament should take for Sunnis in a certain situation, etc. There's ALWAYS room for more discussion than "WRONG"

At times others are wrong but when stated must have an answer that is right. If there isn't a better presentable solution then how can they say the one in place is wrong?

 

[ComradeBadger]

This is a fantastic idea, and what I've been trying to steer this forum towards

 

[CptStern]

Why not?

because you wont like my solution and nothing will ever come of it because in order to work the US has to completely scrap it's foreign policy ..wont happen

There's always going to be people simply saying pull out completely- at least they're saying something. But the rest of us- we should opine on what we feel that particular issue could use.

Perhaps talk on actions the Iraqi parliament should take for Sunnis in a certain situation, etc.

you dont get it ...everything has been orchestrated from the very beginning. There is no "good" solution here ..the only way things will return as they should would be if a civil war broke out without any intervention from the west ...but that wont happen ..not that it really should but for this endless cycle of violence to stop THAT is the ONLY solution

There's ALWAYS room for more discussion than "WRONG"

of course there is ...but you'd have to fundamentally change the way you think in order for us to come to any concession

At times others are wrong but when stated must have an answer that is right. If there isn't a better presentable solution then how can they say the one in place is wrong?

only facts are "right" ..but if you wont accept facts how can we come to some sort of understanding?



look rakurai dont get me wrong, I'd really like this to work ..but this is politics ..it's the nature of the beast to be at each other's throats ..the only way this would ever work would be if we all belonged to same set of ideological principles and only debated the methodology of putting our political beliefs into effect

this forum mimics politics in general and politics aint all that pretty ..ever watch the japanese parliament come to blows? Or the violence during elections?

funadmentally Political ideology needs polar opposites or what we risk is polarization and eventual assimulation of political ideals often discarding what is essentially good ideology ..that's how the neo-cons took over the republican party

 

[The Mullinator]

I would also like to point out that saying that so and so is wrong for what they did/didn't do doesn't count as finding a solution.

I totally agree with this thread however.

 

[CptStern]

I would also like to point out that saying that so and so is wrong for what they did/didn't do doesn't count as finding a solution.

I totally agree with this thread however.

but why should we have to find a solution to every problem?


US bombing of water treatment plants led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands ...how do I posit a solution to that?

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

Words

Right in a sense (not on the not accepting facts and such, because as you know those feelings are reciprocated back the other way)

But there's a LOT more than just Iraq. There are thousands of issues that don't fall down right at that line, and even though it's a big thing, we don't discuss a lot of other political things. Not to say it shouldn't be discussed or anything, but the topics can become broader and keep just the same amount of topics regarding the war and that sort of thing. It's just all we ever go to, everytime, when there's potential to think of solutions to a lot of other issues (be them urgent or just small things that would be nice to do)

 

[bliink]

I would be surprised if it works... I've been trying to push in that direction for a while.

It should be discussion, not argument.

 

[CptStern]

Right in a sense (not on the not accepting facts and such, because as you know those feelings are reciprocated back the other way)

I cant, to my knowledge, think of an instance were I didnt concede an issue when there were indisputable facts ..I cant say the same for everyone I've debated

But there's a LOT more than just Iraq.

of course there are ..thats why I said it would work with some issues

There are thousands of issues that don't fall down right at that line, and even though it's a big thing, we don't discuss a lot of other political things.

yes but then there's issues like abortion, same sex marriage, creationism vs evolution etc where it just doesnt work ...you either support these issues or you dont, there's rarely a middle ground

Not to say it shouldn't be discussed or anything, but the topics can become broader and keep just the same amount of topics regarding the war and that sort of thing. It's just all we ever go to, everytime, when there's potential to think of solutions to a lot of other issues (be them urgent or just small things that would be nice to do)

but I hear what you're saying and I agree ...a discussion of an issue where we put forth our ideas/solutions and concede on points of debate according to the facts presented is ideal ...but very difficult to achieve ..especially because of the nature of the internet, this forum and our members

 

[The Mullinator]

but why should we have to find a solution to every problem?


US bombing of water treatment plants led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands ...how do I posit a solution to that?

You can't there because the argument is going to be over whether it happened or not and about the legitimacy of the US invading Iraq, which is in itself a discussion meant for another topic.

In threads however stating things like "America has really screwed up the Iraq war" then the debate should be about possible solutions to the problem rather than simply blaming the US.

 

[CptStern]

You can't there because the argument is going to be over whether it happened or not and about the legitimacy of the US invading Iraq, which is in itself a discussion meant for another topic.

In threads however stating things like "America has really screwed up the Iraq war" then the debate should be about possible solutions to the problem rather than simply blaming the US.

ok I can see how that can work

 

[baxter]

But there's a LOT more than just Iraq. There are thousands of issues that don't fall down right at that line, and even though it's a big thing, we don't discuss a lot of other political things. Not to say it shouldn't be discussed or anything, but the topics can become broader and keep just the same amount of topics regarding the war and that sort of thing. It's just all we ever go to, everytime, when there's potential to think of solutions to a lot of other issues (be them urgent or just small things that would be nice to do)

You are correct and your summary is the reason I seldom post on this forum. There is more to discuss and even find common ground over, then right and left wing political views.
Although I disagree with the situation in Iraq I feel most debates in this forum degenerate into mud slinging between the left and right, or democrats and republicans and the general topic is lost.
Solutions and discussions are lost in personnel point scoring and brinkmanship.

 

[SAJ]

It should be discussion, not argument.

"No it shouldnt !"
Sorry , I just got moved by the spirit of python for a moment there.

Man Look, this isn't an argument.
Mr Vibrating Yes it is.
Man No it isn't, it's just contradiction.
Mr Vibrating No it isn't.
Man Yes it is.
Mr Vibrating It is not.
Man It is. You just contradicted me.
Mr Vibrating No I didn't.
Man Ooh, you did!
Mr Vibrating No, no, no, no, no.
Man You did, just then.
Mr Vibrating No, nonsense!
Man Oh, look this is futile.
Mr Vibrating No it isn't.
Man I came here for a good argument.
Mr Vibrating No you didn't, you came here for an argument.
Man Well, an argument's not the same as contradiction.
Mr Vibrating It can be.
Man No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements to establish a definite proposition.

Mr Vibrating ...............................No it isn't.

Sorry its a bit long , but I couldnt resist.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

Cool.

I think a good way to facilitate this is for when a thread is started for there to be something proposed there (or a question asked where the answer will make a proposed solution, etc)

Because a lot of what we have now is "I CONDEMN SUCH AND SUCH" of whatever issue (and I just posted one the other day regarding the oreo cookie thing when it was more of a news post and didn't really leave any room for people to talk about it, no one really agrees with them doing it and it was more of a rant)

 

[SAJ]

Because a lot of what we have now is "I CONDEMN SUCH AND SUCH" of whatever issue (and I just posted one the other day regarding the oreo cookie thing when it was more of a news post and didn't really leave any room for people to talk about it, no one really agrees with them doing it and it was more of a rant)

But when you did post it Im sure you were hoping that a discussion would evolve out of it, right?
Its the same for most people here and the fact that it doesnt always work out is inherently a function of the medium that we use.

 

[CptStern]

Because a lot of what we have now is "I CONDEMN SUCH AND SUCH" of whatever issue (and I just posted one the other day regarding the oreo cookie thing when it was more of a news post and didn't really leave any room for people to talk about it, no one really agrees with them doing it and it was more of a rant)

ya but you posted that topic to elicit a response ..if it were all nods in your favour then it'd get boring really quick. Shortly after christmas last year for some reason the people who usually disagree with everything I post were missing for about a week ..and I have to admit that the politics forum bored the shit out of me for that one week :O

 

[dream431ca]

Good idea!! But it's not going to be easy. I'll start doing that now..but the other members might take a while to adjust....some might never adjust.

 

[RakuraiTenjin]

ya but you posted that topic to elicit a response ..if it were all nods in your favour then it'd get boring really quick. Shortly after christmas last year for some reason the people who usually disagree with everything I post were missing for about a week ..and I have to admit that the politics forum bored the shit out of me for that one week :O

Yeah but it really didn't accomplish much in that thread. What I should have done is address how race can be removed from the issues where it isn't one, so that way when it is one, it isn't brushed aside as being casual, and it doesn't distory other things. I basically just posted a slam, felt they deserved it, but it's not productive unless along with that I offer something to move things along.

It doesn't really help for me to tell someone they're being an idiot.

But if I tell someone they're being an idiot and then say what would have been better to do, at least I'm putting something on the table.

 

[CptStern]

Yeah but it really didn't accomplish much in that thread. What I should have done is address how race can be removed from the issues where it isn't one, so that way when it is one, it isn't brushed aside as being casual, and it doesn't distory other things. I basically just posted a slam, felt they deserved it, but it's not productive unless along with that I offer something to move things along.

It doesn't really help for me to tell someone they're being an idiot.

But if I tell someone they're being an idiot and then say what would have been better to do, at least I'm putting something on the table.

exposing someone as an idiot is reward in itself but I agree

 

[jverne]

I'm guilty of this bigtime too, but it would improve the politics forum quite a bit.

We shouldn't just post a news story. In fact, if a post is just a news story it should probably go in off topic.

The two recent immigration threads are the only ones that I can think of that had actual discussion on plausible policies/debate on how to improve them. Not just debate to prove who's right, but debate like it's meant- to arrive at a common ground with the strongest solution.

From now on when we make a topic, we should post solutions to the problem, viable ones, be it about things from Iraq to water treatment.

:cheers:

good luck...you'll need it!! :cheers:

 

[Sulkdodds]

I heartily concur. Also none of this leftwing/rightwing us/them.