Light Gun Games

[sanman]

One of the reasons I had my hopes up about a Valve console was the hope that they would come out with better controllers for hardcore action, like light guns. I've always felt that the light gun is the most hardcore controller you can have for a shooter game. Personally, I would love for light gun games to make a comeback, mainly through improved performance in precision and accuracy.

If anybody knows why light gun games should not take their rightful place as the ultimate controller for a kickass shooter experience, speak now or forever hold your peace.

 

[bobtheskull]

I'm not against them, so this isn't an attack of any sort, but most people can play an FPS for hours at a time.... maybe it's just me, but holding up a gun at the screen for that long would probably cause an insane amount of arm cramps....

 

[Dinnesch]

I'm not against them, so this isn't an attack of any sort, but most people can play an FPS for hours at a time.... maybe it's just me, but holding up a gun at the screen for that long would probably cause an insane amount of arm cramps....

This. When playing Wii games such as Zelda TP after a while I just rest my hands & the controller on my table and point up awkwardly(for the sensor bar) if I need to aim.

 

[Eejit]

I do like light guns. Myself and two friends used to play the Time Crisis games on the PS2 for hours at a time, switching in and out

 

[mechanicallizard]

I do like light guns. Myself and two friends used to play the Time Crisis games on the PS2 for hours at a time, switching in and out

Wow I was playing it on PSone, I must have been like 9 years old. Its the only game Ive ever used one for though.

 

[ríomhaire]

I don't see the lightgun as a hardcore controller. In most cases it requires both your hands and mean you have no control other than aiming and shooting. You give up your ability to control your movements yourself and bring the game down to point and click.

That said, there are ways around this. There's the PS3 Sharp Shooter which attaches the thumbstick to your grip so you're moving with your left hand, but it looks kind of awkward to me:

 

[sanman]

Well, as you know, the Wii Zapper and similar lightguns attach the numchuk at the back, so that you can use its joystick to maneuver. Or you could use the D-pad to maneuver. Various lightgun type controllers now include the joystick:

http://reviews.dcemu.co.uk/content/...fire-Light-Gun-for-Xbox-360-and-PlayStation-3

Yeah, the Time Crisis series was great!

If you play an on-rails shooter like Time Crisis, it can play out like a movie, with action music playing at just the right moments when the pre-arranged action occurs. But if you changed it from on-rails to free movement, then there's no telling when exactly you'll run into the action, and so there's no way to pre-arrange how the music should sound. That's why FPS shooters have to depend on cutscenes. Notice how the music is suited to the action even while you're playing, because it's on rails. That's much more artistic and seamless in its immersion than an FPS game, where they can't do that without going to full cutscene.

And for rails-haters, Time Crisis 4 also had a non-rails mode. But I think rails is nice when it's done right. It almost feels like being in an action movie, or like Karaoke, where things are already pre-scripted to look and feel as cool as possible. I think that there are ways to improve rails, such as by varying the ways in which enemies attack along your scripted path, or ways of varying the path itself. There's an arcade game called 2Spicy which allows you to choose different possible paths to move along, but you're basically moving from cover-to-cover. When I think about GearsOfWar and its cover-to-cover movement, I think that would also be a good way to do a lightgun game.

I think a good lightgun game should make you feel like you're in an action movie, and should be as cinematic as possible, because it really increases immersion and enjoyment. I remember once being at a Karaoke bar where they did variations like Movie-oke, where people go onstage to recite dialogue from well-known movie scripts in front of a large screen, and where they had a Time Crisis game set up on a large screen for people to play out onstage in front of everyone. It was pretty cool.

These days, people use game engines to animate their own movies, in the form of machinima. I think that it would be cool if this concept could be used as a way to develop "lightgun movies" or "lightgun episodes". Then you could make action movies, or even an action series, which incorporate lightgun gameplay. So the standard script could be that you are the hero, or the sidekick to a hero, helping out and participating in the movie plot as it unfolds. Instead of thinking of the lightgun game as a game with cutscenes, think of it the other way - as a movie where you can participate in the gunplay.

Actually, if I could do such an action series, that's the name I would give it - "Gunplay".
Make a series of action episodes, which people could subscribe to and enjoy, as the episodes come out one-by-one.

 

[ríomhaire]

That's why FPS shooters have to depend on cutscenes. Notice how the music is suited to the action even while you're playing, because it's on rails. That's much more artistic and seamless in its immersion than an FPS game, where they can't do that without going to full cutscene.

It's pretty laughable that you're saying this in a Valve fansite. I don't mean to be rude or mean in saying that, but the Half-Life series is known for popularising having cinematic events without ever taking control from the character and both the Left 4 Dead series and Portal 2 use dynamic music that vary with what's happening in the game (as well as also being minimal on cutscenes). It's entirely possible for an FPS to have scripted events and musical cues that line up to these events without taking control away from the player.

Also, Time Crisis is full of cutscenes.

 

[sanman]

I'm not disagreeing that regular FPS can do it too - but I was saying that when you're doing it on rails, then it can naturally be staged to look cinematic. Whereas if you're full-freedom then it won't necessarily look cinematic and artistic, because the look can't be controlled as much. On-Rails is more suited to that kind of thing.

 

[sixteenth]

Eh, I'm a little inclined to agree. Try the, quite literally, on rails part of HL2 inside the Citadel when inside that metal transport thing that brought you up.

 

[sanman]

But tell me - all other things being equal, don't you feel more satisfaction when you drop an enemy by taking real aim with your hands and firing? When it comes to art of actually firing a gun - which most gamers never have - obviously it's the lightgun which most closely reproduces this real life experience, and not keyboard+mouse.

 

[Acepilotf14]

I'm not against them, so this isn't an attack of any sort, but most people can play an FPS for hours at a time.... maybe it's just me, but holding up a gun at the screen for that long would probably cause an insane amount of arm cramps....

Oddly enough carrying around an M16 for hours isn't that bad.

 

[sanman]

But cmon now - how can you like playing gun-games while finding guns too unwieldy? This is what separates the casual gamer from the hardcore one. To me, being hardcore is about seeking an experience that's as immersive and authentic as possible. That makes it ironic that motion-gamers are considered the 'casual gamers', and meanwhile the couch potato keyboard-warriors are supposed to be hardcore. Keyboards and joysticks are not improvements over the realistic feel of a gun.

 

[ríomhaire]

But cmon now - how can you like playing gun-games while finding guns too unwieldy?

The same way I can enjoy Sonic the Hedgehog while not actually wanting to run a marathon at 20 mph. I don't play games to imitate reality in general. Even when I want an immersive experience I don't think light guns and semi-realistic controls always help that. What is far more important is responsive and easy controls. Controls where I don't have to think about what I'm doing and can project myself onto it. A poorly implemented light gun gives a far more unrealistic feel than a well-implemented mouse and keyboard. Please watch this video, it's rather relevant.

 

[sanman]

Hi, I want to thank you for that video - it was very nice. Yes, I totally agree with this idea of 'kinesthetic projection' - that's what I'm talking about with lightguns. But obviously, as you say, such devices have to work above a certain threshold of accuracy/precision/performance, or else the experience becomes frustrating/unappealing/pointless. I did indeed mention this before, saying that's why I hope to see the latest modern technology applied to improve these devices. Just because some devices of yesterday don't work perfectly doesn't mean they can't be improved to provide a better experience today. VirtualBoy was a crappy device back in the day, but I'm sure you've read about Sony's latest HMZ-T1 headset, which is getting a lot of good reviews. Maybe even Valve's video glasses project could also provide good performance. The point is that we shouldn't stop trying due to past failures, and just relegate ourselves to the crappy mouse+keyboard, which are far from ideal. I'm sure you remember the mouse of yesterday, which was non-optical and had a crappy trackball at the bottom which could catch dust and become very inaccurate and frustrating if you didn't clean it.

So I still think we've got to aspire to more than just the mouse+keyboard, or the six-axis controller. Shooters were made to be played with guns, because guns can become a natural extension of your body, in a way that a mouse+keyboard never will.

 

[bobtheskull]

because guns can become a natural extension of your body

Don't take this the wrong way, but you're not planning on going and shooting up a Mall full of people, are you?

The same way I can enjoy Sonic the Hedgehog while not actually wanting to run a marathon at 20 mph.

I nearly choked on my coffee when I read that.

 

[ríomhaire]

Well my main gripe with lightguns is that they tend to limit you hugely. For the start there's the obvious reduction in the amount of buttons you have available to you, limiting your possible actions in the gameworld. The other limit is while it may feel more natural for shooting with, it will make every other action you perform feel ridiculous. You're using that PS3 sharp shooter machine gun thing? Pretty cool when you're firing a machine gun I imagine. Pretty odd when you're supposed to be firing a pistol though. Or throwing a grenade. Or driving a tank. Or opening a door. Your issue now is that because you've made your input device less abstract it now goes to you doing everything by literally pointing a gun at it. When I'm talking to an NPC in an FPS I forget that the mouse is my gun-aiming device and suddenly it's just my looking device. With a light gun you can't get around the mental image that you're talking to someone by pointing your gun straight at their face. This is where the issue of "kinesthetic projection" comes in I think.


All that said I am certainly not against point and shoot devices in general. Some Wii games make very good use of it and I think that Wildfire lightgun you linked to earlier could work very well with the navigation controller from the OP. I just think locking yourself in to a physical gun-like controller is detrimental to experiences other than shooting (which most FPSs that aren't strict light gun games have).

 

[sixteenth]

It's not even the aesthetic button argument that gets to me. You can overcome those problems with different designs. The bottom line is that it's going to get old after a while. Just like duck hunt got old. It's arcade style action; not fit for a extended period video game. This is why you only really see "lightgun" games at arcades and not in homes. If it were meant for consumer home-enjoyment, it'd be more popular and producers would push the product more. But, we don't see that. I mean, who really wants to stand and shoot at aliens for 3-4 hours? Yea, it'd be great to do that in broken segments (arcade-style), but do it consistently? I think not.

I present you with a vignette:
You're home after a long day of work. All you have on your mind is to play your favorite video game (be it Halo, Hl2, CoD, whatever). You sit down on your couch, grab your controller, and turn on your console. But wait. You have the new lightgun console. You can't sit and play. So you get up, punch the controller into the lightgun thing, and start your game. After an hour, you begin to notice the creeping tense on your legs. You spent all day selling used Hyundai's to soccer mom's and geriatric care physical therapists. The stress is starting to get to you. But, forget it. Your gaming won't stop because of that. You're not a pussy. You're a car-selling hoss. Keep going. An hour later, the pain is really starting to kick in. **** it you say. You sit back down on the couch and hoist your gun in one hand; shooting whatever is on the screen while waving it around. Very cinematic, you think. But what has this whole thing really been reduced to? You're back on the couch with a device in your hands. An inaccurate one at that, but that point doesn't really matter. You think, why has the controller evolved into this ****ing thing? There was no reason for it when the previous device worked absolutely fine. You then think about how much more money this device cost you. In turn, you think how much money it cost the developers. A few occam's razor thoughts go through your head, then you conclude that the gaming industry has fundamentally ****ed up.

 

[sanman]

Don't take this the wrong way, but you're not planning on going and shooting up a Mall full of people, are you?

Cmon, that's what people say about shooter-gamers in general. "Why do you like shooting people? Are you a sicko? You people caused Columbine"
It's a game.

Well my main gripe with lightguns is that they tend to limit you hugely. For the start there's the obvious reduction in the amount of buttons you have available to you, limiting your possible actions in the gameworld. The other limit is while it may feel more natural for shooting with, it will make every other action you perform feel ridiculous. You're using that PS3 sharp shooter machine gun thing? Pretty cool when you're firing a machine gun I imagine. Pretty odd when you're supposed to be firing a pistol though. Or throwing a grenade. Or driving a tank. Or opening a door. Your issue now is that because you've made your input device less abstract it now goes to you doing everything by literally pointing a gun at it. When I'm talking to an NPC in an FPS I forget that the mouse is my gun-aiming device and suddenly it's just my looking device. With a light gun you can't get around the mental image that you're talking to someone by pointing your gun straight at their face. This is where the issue of "kinesthetic projection" comes in I think.

Ok, fair enough. I think that the Wiimote was designed as a compromise around these various things, so that you could do lightgun stuff and punching, etc. Too bad they never made any punching games beyond Wii boxing, because it gives a really good workout if you minimize the motion sensitivity settings.

All that said I am certainly not against point and shoot devices in general. Some Wii games make very good use of it and I think that Wildfire lightgun you linked to earlier could work very well with the navigation controller from the OP. I just think locking yourself in to a physical gun-like controller is detrimental to experiences other than shooting (which most FPSs that aren't strict light gun games have).

Here's the Penguin Crossfire Remote Pistol - it's wireless, has all the Wiimote buttons in convenient places, includes Motionplus built-in, and is said to have unprecedented accuracy:

http://www.amazon.com/Wii-Crossfire-Integrated-Remote-Pistol-Nintendo/dp/B002ISZB4M

It's not even the aesthetic button argument that gets to me. You can overcome those problems with different designs. The bottom line is that it's going to get old after a while. Just like duck hunt got old. It's arcade style action; not fit for a extended period video game. This is why you only really see "lightgun" games at arcades and not in homes. If it were meant for consumer home-enjoyment, it'd be more popular and producers would push the product more. But, we don't see that. I mean, who really wants to stand and shoot at aliens for 3-4 hours? Yea, it'd be great to do that in broken segments (arcade-style), but do it consistently? I think not.

Alright, I'll agree with you that you need some stamina to play any physical game. It may not be for everybody, but for some it's better than joining the current generation of couch potatoes. Game action can easily be broken up with stages/levels and cutscenes, to let you get a breather. I think there's a certain quality to light gun shooting action. As you may remember, games like Time Crisis could be very intense in certain parts, requiring you to build up strong reflexes and reaction times. Again, one thing I feel needs to be improved is to randomize how the attacks occur, so that there's more replayability. Good use of AI can help to make attacks more dynamic and unique, instead of just purely scripted. Badguys can also go down in different ways, depending on how you hit them. Hit a guy in the shoulder, and he'll go down one way, hit him in the leg and he'll go down a different way. If you don't get him in a critical spot, then he could be injured but keep on firing at you (that could be a difficulty setting, or happen as levels get harder).

I think there are a lot of ways to keep improving the lightgun genre.

 

[bobtheskull]

Cmon, that's what people say about shooter-gamers in general. "Why do you like shooting people? Are you a sicko? You people caused Columbine"
It's a game.

You do realise that, this being a Valve fan forum, and around 90% of Valve games being shooters, that your response to my obviously sarcastic comment, is void? I do play these games. A lot. And I know they are, indeed, games.

If it wasn't for the fact that you are putting so much effort into trying to convince us all that light guns are the way to go, I'd consider the possibility that you were actually trolling us. That said, regardless of what anyone replies with, you are dead set on proving them wrong. By all accounts, you appear to be in the minority here. Most, if not all, who have replied do not think light gun control is a viable option in their choice of games. It doesn't fit. Continuously coming back with 'yes, fair enough, but....' is only going to rankle some people. You have your opinion. Everyone else has theirs.

Personally, I like playing light gun games in Arcades. Our local one has been home to both the Time Crisis and House of the Dead franchises. At home, I prefer the mouse/key option. I hate using analogue controllers, but that's a purely personal choice. I like using motion/IR controllers for shooters even less. Again, personal choice.

Its the same with saying that you're not 'hardcore' if you don't employ a method of play that emulates the on screen action in the most realistic of ways. I know a guy that spent months building a fairly accurate flight sim setup that included so many peripheral switches, pedals and flight yokes that his attic looked like a cockpit. Is he a hardcore gamer? Not even close; he just likes messing about in a flight sim. I have several friends that spent silly money keeping their computers so powerful that they can play anything on the market at max settings, and spend even sillier money on games. They play on 40" HD screens. They play for about 12 hours a day. They play practically every game that comes out til they know it inside out. They consider themselves hardcore gamers. I consider them hardcore gamers. I also consider them slightly insane.

I'm not trying to berate you in any way. I'm just saying that your enthusiasm for this particular niche of shooter is obvious. No-one here has outright told you that you're wrong. Nor has anyone said that they don't like light gun games.

Sixteenth's last comment was bang on the money as far as I'm concerned.

Damn, that turned into an unintentional rant...

 

[sanman]

If you're ever facing a horde of attacking zombies, you will thank me:

http://www.reghardware.com/2012/05/01/violent_fps_games_breed_generation_of_accurate_shooters/

 

[Krynn72]

This is my favorite spam thread necro. They're starting to find the sweet spot of on-topic/totally off topic, making it hilarious.

 

[Vegeta897]

I'm assuming there was a post before yours?

I was about to put my 2 cents in before I saw your post.

 

[Krynn72]

Yep, his username was Gun Games, and he talked about how he wished gun games would be more cinematic, and how he once attended a Gun Games.