Lombardi: "We chose the wrong word in 'episode'"

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Valve's Doug Lombardi has admitted that Valve may chose the wrong word 'Episode' for the Half Life 2 run of games.

"The notion of the word 'episode' conjures up this idea of television where you get something new every week. And people say 'we thought that episodic meant we were going to get something new every six months or every year',[br]

I think a lot of folks in the games industry saw the same problem that we did with Half Life 2 in that making a 20-hour game with rich graphics, story etc. is a really expensive proposition both in time and money.[br]

And some have started making games about the same length as Episode II, but they haven't changed what they call it, and they haven't change the price.[br]

In a way you're charging people $50 but they're only getting $18 worth out of it - that's not necessarily the best way to go. But if you look at something like Portal, it's a five hour game and although I haven't done a qualified study, the number of people I've spoken to that finished the game feels like a much higher percent.
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Stay tuned for the full interview on the weekend on CVG.com.
 
they should have keep the name "aftermath" and so on instead of "episode"
 
I think Episode works. It certainly feels like an episode. And I'd never expect the word Episode to imply anything to do with TV episodes, but I would if they imply it themselves.
 
<RJMC> said:
they should have keep the name "aftermath" and so on instead of "episode"
Click to expand...

I agree , i think it made the game feel more... Whole , somehow. It made the game seem a bit better than it actually turned out to be.
 
It's an episode when you consider how long HL2 was. When you don't consider it, they seem like full-length games within the story arc of a series.
 
I'm pretty bias as a Half-Life fanboy, so I dont think my view counts, but I have loved the episodes so far, I think the main restriction of the naming process so far, is that Episode 3 will still carry the name Half-Life 2 - Episode 3, so it implies that a major lengthy release would be next in line if the franchise continues, which I dont think is what valve wants to do, I see half-life after episode 3 as being of a similar scale, but without the name episode, I wouldnt be surprised if they did this with portal to, thats my guess anyway.

The word episode does draw attention to the fact they are short, but then so are alot of similar titles these days, it does make the product more polished in the end, a good example is Max Payne 2, it was a short game, but it was amazingly solid.

Alot of developers shy away from long titles now because the higher you climb the harder you fall, if you spend 3-4 years on a single release that then flops, you pretty much screwed your company, its easy to say "well people should make sure their game is good then" but its impossible to tell on a project like that how things will end up at release, we have countless examples of games that were destined for greatness, only to run out of development time and force the game out of the door, only to have it forgotten within months.
 
I dont think Episode was a good word but expansion is even worse. Its nether. So i think they should have just called it Half-Life 3 Part 1,2,3. lol.
 
excuse me, but Valve themselves were the ones who told us that the intervals between these episodic releases would be relatively fast. they were the ones who said it would be like one a year or whatever (or maybe even shorter, i can't remember), and when they had to delay the releases, the endearing concept of Half-Life "episodes" kinda went out the window. just admit it takes you a long ass time to do some great work and put out great quality, and we'll just buy your stuff when it comes out. i certainly don't hold my breath over any proposed Valve schedules.
 
Doug doesn't half talk a lot of shit sometimes. The episodic contnt route was a bit of a failure in terms of speedy delivery, but don't pretend after the fact that it was a problem with semantics... We were given the impression (by Valve!) that the development cycle would be much shorter than it turned out to be, and that isn't a problem with the words that were chosen, it's a problem with the business model that was chosen and the way it was implemented.

The fact that Valve's episodes surpass some other companies' titles in terms of length and quality is neither here nor there. There have always been short standalone games and length has never been a direct guarantee of quality. That doesn't mean that creating short, dense games is the best and only way to go about developing, nor does it mean you should point to another company and say 'they make shorter, inferior games to our episodes, so we're still vindicated.' Lowering your standards is never the answer.

I don't think the episodic content route was the best choice, but I'm moderately happy with the way it went. Episode 1 and 2 are great games. However, I don't think they even come close - nor will an episodic release ever come close - to changing the face of gaming in the way that HL2 did. In any case what's done is done and we still have a bunch of great Valve games at the end of it all. It's just that we're nearly 5 years on from HL2 now and it doesn't feel like we're close to seeing another paradigm shift which brings it to the next level.

What's annoying is being told 'people got the wrong idea when we said "Episodes."' I don't buy that Doug, I think YOU had the wrong idea when YOU said 'episodes', since you had an unrealistic idea of your development turnaround time. And I still think he has the wrong idea if he's now claiming that shorter one-offs like Episode 2 and Portal are the way to go instead of big-project standalones like HL2. They might create a nice revenue stream and satiate the fans throughout the life of your game engine, but if you never decide to branch out and risk a bunch of money and time on a huge new 20-hour project, you'll never make the next 'HL2'.
 
I feel I should get each episode for half the price of a normal game, because episodes are too short IMHO. They can't deliver in time so maybe episodic isn't a way too go. Maybe they should spend more time and deliver complete and proper games.
 
In my eyes their next Half-Life 2 was Portal, it was their masterpiece of innovation whose only downside was its length, which was in truth necessary in order to not drag the game out.

If you chopped Half-Life 2 into 3 bits, say [Start - BME entrance], [BME - NP teleport], [Kliener's Lab - End], I feel the only one that would stand in quality to Episode 1 and 2 would be [Kliener's Lab - End] as the others had long, desolate sequences such as parts of Water Hazard, Highway 17 and Sandtraps, where that sense of urgency and good pacing dropped away and the fun went with it. The game in general lacks that fine layer of polish that the episodes possess.

Not that I'm attempting to justify all of what Doug is saying, I'm just saying that there is good reason for long development times and the corresponding change in development strategy.
 
I'm with whoever confirmed the fact that they said development would be faster. I thought they said that.

Doesn't bother me, either way. I enjoy the games, and development has certainly been faster than if they'd released a new full game each time.

Plus I also agree with Avoidist. The episodes have a nice length.
 
Huzzah! Let me expand on what I was saying anyway.

Personally I think the fact that, even after all these years have passed (4, not 5, my mistake), we're still comparing recently released games to HL2 as if it's on an even footing, it goes to show just how much of a masterpiece it was for the time. As members of an HL2 fan site it's easy to get jaded and forget the impact it had, because we're constantly reexposing ourselves to its flaws, while the quality parts don't improve over time. Although by today's standards HL2 had a fair bit of filler, by the FPS standards back in the day it felt like end to end quality.

Portal is a little classic, make no mistake, but it does feel... well, little. Not just because it's short, but because it wasn't as grand a project as HL2 and never pretended to be. HL2 introduced new facial technology, great physics, a superb new game engine, an extended universe full of unanswered questions, a tight and highly polished narrative experience (which was itself innovatively executed)... Portal worked within the confines of those already established landmarks, introduced one new gameplay mechanism in the portal gun, and wrapped it up in a brilliant, compact story. Great as it was, it wasn't a quantum leap and I don't think it's necessarily opened the door to anything new in the way HL2 did.

To get it in perspective, I probably do enjoy Portal about as much as HL2 if not more, depending on my mood, but I also generally enjoy Episode 2 more than Portal. That doesn't mean I think Episode 2 was as momentous a game as HL2, certainly not in terms of its importance to gaming as a whole at any rate.

Basically, if Valve are deciding to go down this route of... 'smaller' games, I'm worried that we're not going to get the next real significant step up of FPS (or FP-whatever) quality which I think Valve have the potential to create.
 
Laivasse said:
Huzzah! Let me expand on what I was saying anyway.

Personally I think the fact that, even after all these years have passed (4, not 5, my mistake), we're still comparing recently released games to HL2 as if it's on an even footing, it goes to show just how much of a masterpiece it was for the time. As members of an HL2 fan site it's easy to get jaded and forget the impact it had, because we're constantly reexposing ourselves to its flaws, while the quality parts don't improve over time. Although by today's standards HL2 had a fair bit of filler, by the FPS standards back in the day it felt like end to end quality.

Portal is a little classic, make no mistake, but it does feel... well, little. Not just because it's short, but because it wasn't as grand a project as HL2 and never pretended to be. HL2 introduced new facial technology, great physics, a superb new game engine, an extended universe full of unanswered questions, a tight and highly polished narrative experience (which was itself innovatively executed)... Portal worked within the confines of those already established landmarks, introduced one new gameplay mechanism in the portal gun, and wrapped it up in a brilliant, compact story. Great as it was, it wasn't a quantum leap and I don't think it's necessarily opened the door to anything new in the way HL2 did.

To get it in perspective, I probably do enjoy Portal about as much as HL2 if not more, depending on my mood, but I also generally enjoy Episode 2 more than Portal. That doesn't mean I think Episode 2 was as momentous a game as HL2, certainly not in terms of its importance to gaming as a whole at any rate.

Basically, if Valve are deciding to go down this route of... 'smaller' games, I'm worried that we're not going to get the next real significant step up of FPS (or FP-whatever) quality which I think Valve have the potential to create.
Click to expand...

You could not have said it better. 100% Agreed.
 
Even though it took me so long to read, yeah, I agree.
 
They should have just left the subtitles and labeled them as expansion packs. That's what they are,after all. Labeling them as Episodes is just misleading and may have even hurt their sales.
Usually, episodic based games are quite short and lack a lot of content compared to HL2's episodes.
 
I think the name 'episode' only affects casual gamers. Most of us here know enough about the game before it comes out that it doesn't matter if it's called 'Half-Life 2 episode 3 part 1 subsection delta - Alyx's Revenge!!'. I think the vast majority of people know what to expect.

I don't think they can create another HL2 unless the circumstances are similar -- take 4-6 years, create new engine and dramatically new gameplay, create all new weapons (except for crowbar), many new enemies and make it ten years in the future on the other end of the globe, etc. Oh, and make sure the source code gets leaked and it gets delayed for a year. Then you will have a new HL2. I don't think it's realistic to expect a ground-breaking full length title from them any time soon. The ever-expanding timeframes needed for development due to advancing technology make such games effectively obsolete.
 
Druckles said:
I think Episode works. It certainly feels like an episode. And I'd never expect the word Episode to imply anything to do with TV episodes, but I would if they imply it themselves.
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You SIR copied my avatar :( foooor shaaaame

ADDED:But I just noticed I've been copied by a guy with over 8 thousand posts so I'll crawl back into my cave.
 
Robinhood_01 said:
You SIR copied my avatar :( foooor shaaaame

ADDED:But I just noticed I've been copied by a guy with over 8 thousand posts so I'll crawl back into my cave.
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*rolls a large stone in place to block the entrance*

And the village was peaceful ever after.










I don't care what they want to call them as long as we get episode 3.

I'm not averse to long waits, I mean, if a long wait to get things just right is the biggest slight I can make against Valve when its surrounded by the likes of EA, then I consider that a not bad sign.


So yeah, can you guys wait until I at least get ep 3 and Left 4 Dead before you start a HL2.net vs Valve old Scottish grudge clan war with them, thanks. :LOL:
 
The rest of the interview has appeared, not much more than has already been said, its worth pointing out that the comment was a small part of a larger interview, its just CVG posting it as a big headline that causes debate.

I cant figure out if he is hinting that Episode 3 closes the HL2 chapter of the series, or the entire series, then again franchises never say never, I mean alot of people thought Half-Life was long over just before HL2 was announced, either way I dont think we will see any info about it till next year, pehaps it will be their Fall 2009 release, maybe with more portal, time will tell.

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=198032
 
"What's cool with episodic content is that we will be able do deliver a new game every six month"

-Gabe Newell
 
Robinhood_01 said:
You SIR copied my avatar :( foooor shaaaame

ADDED:But I just noticed I've been copied by a guy with over 8 thousand posts so I'll crawl back into my cave.
Click to expand...

Is that better?

Feel free to use my old avatar:

avatar35982_12.gif
 
in english, " episode three : coming soon ( 2010 )
 
I feel bad for saying this...but my patience is wearing thin. I want HL2:EP3 sooooo bad. Just give me something...more than one piece of concept art...a trailer to drool over...screenshots...those awesome BINK videos released in anticipation of HL2...I just need something to hold onto. I'm playing through the entire HL series again and I hope to find something new when I am done. I love you, Valve.

Oh yeah, Left 4 Dead is coming out. nvm. I can wait.
 
bigdeezy23 said:
excuse me, but Valve themselves were the ones who told us that the intervals between these episodic releases would be relatively fast. they were the ones who said it would be like one a year or whatever (or maybe even shorter, i can't remember), and when they had to delay the releases, the endearing concept of Half-Life "episodes" kinda went out the window. just admit it takes you a long ass time to do some great work and put out great quality, and we'll just buy your stuff when it comes out. i certainly don't hold my breath over any proposed Valve schedules.
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Yeah I agree. The 1st post makes it sound as if they are claiming other people just assumed these games were intended to ship quickly when it was Valve themselves that were talking about it.

In the end episodes IMHO is a good concept but it isn't a viable one for a company such as Valve. The big thing was they could release a product quicker and while it may be flawed they would use the feedback to ensure they learnt from their mistakes. The thing is Valve aren't the sort of company prepared to make those initial mistakes and instead need every game to be perfect. I mean how many independent studios would have thrown out Half Life 1 and restarted the entire thing again and then done a huge delay on HL2 and pretty much every other one of their titles?

Fact is valve are too big a perfectionist of a company to make episodes really work for them in a timely manner. If they want to get games out fast like they originally intended they really cant go and make major changes to the engine every release and try and perfect every minute gameplay mechanic. Episodes is a model that can work but IMHO valve should stick to the traditional games. By the time we actually get Episode 3 they could have released a full title anyway.

Also HL2 probably wouldnt have taken 5 years had they not made the Source engine. Theres no saying they cant release a full game every 2.5 to 3 years by licensing something like the Unreal Engine and letting other companies worry about the technical aspects. If they like they can just tweak the engine from there. A bit moot now that Source is out, but I never buy it when they say HL2 took them 5 years. Take out the delays and the time creating the tech and the development cycle could have been dramatically shorter. HL is what it is for the gameplay and plot and no amount of persuasion will convince me they couldn't have created as good a game on a 3rd party engine.
 
I agree that is was Valve who spoke of quick release cycles when they first switched to doing episodes.

Smigit said:
Fact is valve are too big a perfectionist of a company to make episodes really work for them in a timely manner. If they want to get games out fast like they originally intended they really cant go and make major changes to the engine every release and try and perfect every minute gameplay mechanic. Episodes is a model that can work but IMHO valve should stick to the traditional games. By the time we actually get Episode 3 they could have released a full title anyway.
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I disagree. For starters the people who work on the Engine are different from those who work on Level Design, Story, Pacing, etc. I also think the smaller episodes are quicker to make. For Episodes Valve's testing can be iterated quicker and any changes don't effect as much. I think the quality and tightness of the Episodes benefit from this as well.

Oh and unless Ep3 comes out after Nov 2010 timewise the Episodes are quicker and in an industry of increasing development time and cost I don't think that's bad.

Laivasse said:
Basically, if Valve are deciding to go down this route of... 'smaller' games, I'm worried that we're not going to get the next real significant step up of FPS (or FP-whatever) quality which I think Valve have the potential to create.
Click to expand...
Disagree. There is the aforementioned Portal, set in the Half-Life universe to introduce portals to it. I doubt we'll get a Portal Gun in Ep3 but Valve is excited enough about the concept of portals that I'm sure they'll play some role (with the potential for that role to increase in the future).

Also keep in mind that many of the significant steps in HL2 were just as much technical based as gameplay based. The next big technical step to bring to gaming is multicore and what you can do with it.

Okay so Ep1 and Ep2 haven't been revolutionary or really significant in what they brought to the genre but I'm sure if Valve sticks with Episodic delevary we'll start seeing the innovation that HL and HL2 are famous for and with quicker payoff and feedback the techniques used will get better faster.
 
Basically, COD4 was as long as a HL2 episode (6 hours) but sold at full price, with gimmicks such as 'arcade mode' thrown in to artificially lengthen the game. I've replayed the HL2 games pretty often anyway, although Episode 1 seems more like a big Minerva than a proper game...
 
sickre said:
Basically, COD4 was as long as a HL2 episode (6 hours) but sold at full price, with gimmicks such as 'arcade mode' thrown in to artificially lengthen the game.
Click to expand...

Cod4 is longer than 6 hours and it has multiplayer that Episodes haven't got.
 
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