Man who stops robbery is left to die on populated sidewalk, no-one reacts.

[dfc05]

They received three 911 calls about this incident. It's evident to me that at least most of the people walking past thought he was a god damn bum sleeping on the sidewalk (which is common in Jamaica Queens, New York). Three others called 911.

Yeah seriously. I'm sorry if this somehow makes me an awful person, but when I see that dude lying there, that honestly doesn't register as "mortally wounded person in need of help." If there were a man crying out for help or with blood all over the place, that would be a totally different story. But (from what is visible in the video), it's not obvious that he's injured in any way.

If you watched the video with no prior knowledge of what had happened and without the part where he falls over, and knowing that yes homeless people do sleep on sidewalks all the time, would you actually think "Oh hey it's a dead guy"? Does anyone seriously think that dude would have taken a picture if he genuinely knew the man was mortally wounded? Hindsight is 20/20...

Obviously it's unfortunate that the man died, but don't sit there blaming people walking by who had no reason to believe he was even in need of help.

And to anyone who thinks that lying face-down is an unnatural way to sleep:
I fell asleep in that position on the floor once. It was not particularly uncomfortable.


P.S. Laivasse: I think fear is a totally legitimate (and smart) reason to avoid any general situation like this.
(1) You are walking down the street by yourself at night.
(2) You see a man lying on the sidewalk. To many people he appears to be sleeping. He is not visibly injured.
(3) For obvious reasons, you are afraid of messing with random dudes.
In what way is it somehow necessary or even logical to try to move the guy in this situation?

 

[Adrik_Senturu]

Most bystanders do NOT want to get involved, yes, obviously. But this is due to selfishness and fear, no point wrapping it up in faux pragmatic logic.

I don't know if you've ever been to NYC, but you do not attempt to wake up or bother a sleeping homeless person (which the dude in the video looked like he was on the floor like that.)

There's pretty much a kind of "let them be" attitude when it comes to homeless here, because if you call the cops all thats going to happen is, the homeless dude will be woken up, he'll wander off and just fall asleep on someones doorstep or something.

 

[Letters]

I'm sorry if this somehow makes me an awful person, but if I see a guy lying there, I think "oh hey it's a dead guy" and keep on walking. I would look for treasures but it might not actually be a dead guy and instead be an alive guy with a knife and crazy eyes. Wouldn't that be just awful to get stabbed by an alive guy? Jesus, my tummy hurts just imagining it. I definitely wouldn't take any pictures, though. "Oh hey, it's a passed out guy." That's not even interesting. What an odd thing to take picture of. Only it wasn't a passed out guy; it was a dead guy. Now it's evidence that you're a screwball. No pictures. No touch. Walk.

 

[VirusType2]

The thing people say about New York is that people do not associate on the streets. If you are in a place of business, then yeah, you may converse with strangers, but New York is a very small state with an insane amount of people. People there tend to mind their business and not say "howdy stranger" to anyone, like you might see in some sparsely populated area. Certainly you aren't going to associate with random people laying on the street in the middle of one of the most dangerous ghettos in the middle of the night. Jamaica queens is the worst ghetto in New York City.

Just to compare just how densely populated New York is:

New York - AREA: 141,299 km2 - POPULATION: 19,541,453 (Jul 2009)
Australia - AREA:7,617,930 km2 POPULATION: 21,431,800 - 2008

 

[L3N!N]

Why in living hell would your first reaction to seeing a guy dying on the floor be to take a photo of him? Why would you ignore said man? I don't understand this, at all.

Probably because everybody wanted to be the "first-post"ers to report the atrocity...

 

[Adrik_Senturu]

The thing people say about New York is that people do not associate on the streets. If you are in a place of business, then yeah, you may converse with strangers, but New York is a very small state with an insane amount of people. People there tend to mind their business and not say "howdy stranger" to anyone, like you might see in some sparsely populated area. Certainly you aren't going to associate with random people laying on the street in the middle of one of the most dangerous ghettos in the middle of the night. Jamaica queens is the worst ghetto in New York City.

Just to compare just how densely populated New York is:

New York - AREA: 141,299 km2 - POPULATION: 19,541,453 (Jul 2009)
Australia - AREA:7,617,930 km2 POPULATION: 21,431,800 - 2008

Exactly. If you're in the city chances are you're headed somewhere, hanging out with friends or something, and it's really just the natural attitude there to not really pay attention to anyone.

 

[Laivasse]

They received three 911 calls about this incident. It's evident to me that at least most of the people walking past thought he was a god damn bum sleeping on the sidewalk (which is common in Jamaica Queens, New York). Three others called 911.

I did read this part in the NY times article, but it doesn't change much. More than three people walked by, two callers were so half-assed that they didn't even give the right location, and only one of the passers-by had a chance of actually knowing how urgently the police were needed, since only one person went up to the guy and checked on him. Furthermore, it's not clear whether one or more of those calls could have been about the initial altercation involving the woman, rather than the guy lying in the street.

'God damn bums' in my experience don't find it too easy to sleep face down out in the middle of the pavement. I've seen hundreds of people living rough and not one of them has chosen to sleep like that. If someone looks like they've collapsed face down, chances are they've collapsed face down, and even if it's a god damn bum who's collapsed because he's blind drunk and choking on cidervomit, guess what, he still may be in serious need of help.

P.S. Laivasse: I think fear is a totally legitimate (and smart) reason to avoid any general situation like this.
(1) You are walking down the street by yourself at night.
(2) You see a man lying on the sidewalk. To many people he appears to be sleeping. He is not visibly injured.
(3) For obvious reasons, you are afraid of messing with random dudes.
In what way is it somehow necessary or even logical to try to move the guy in this situation?

Homeless people don't choose to sleep in the most uncomfortable position possible if they can avoid it. They wedge themselves into doorways and fight over sleeping patches for a reason. If somebody passes a prone figure in that position and thinks something along the lines of "hmm, that would be a strange way to sleep, but oh well, I guess I'll never understand those wacky bums, he could actually be really comfortable and sleeping soundly with amazing dreams, awww, tbh it wouldn't even be fair to disturb him, onward then" - make no mistake, that person is not reasoning with himself, he is excusing himself. If it looks like someone may have collapsed, there's a very real chance that they've actually collapsed, at which point 'visible injuries' doesn't make any odds, because he could be dying of alcohol poisoning or a heart attack.

The idea of the prone man being a waiting attacker is a kind of farfetched ambush that's about as likely as having a mugger jump down off the scaffolding to attack you. Even if it's just a sleeping drunk who may very well turn out to be fine, the most you're likely to lose by calling in his ear or patting his cheek is the dignity involved in being told to 'rrrrrfugoff'.

Certainly, people can decide to act in whatever way they choose. I just don't think they should be allowed to forget that they're writing out of existence the likelihood that they've just walked on past someone who might desperately need a simple bit of help. Fear is understandable - I mean not everyone can work up the guts to try to defend someone from multiple or armed attackers (like the dead guy was courageous enough to do), but checking on a prone figure is really not a big ask.

I'm sorry if this somehow makes me an awful person, but if I see a guy lying there, I think "oh hey it's a dead guy" and keep on walking. I would look for treasures but it might not actually be a dead guy and instead be an alive guy with a knife and crazy eyes. Wouldn't that be just awful to get stabbed by an alive guy? Jesus, my tummy hurts just imagining it. I definitely wouldn't take any pictures, though. "Oh hey, it's a passed out guy." That's not even interesting. What an odd thing to take picture of. Only it wasn't a passed out guy; it was a dead guy. Now it's evidence that you're a screwball. No pictures. No touch. Walk.

Yeah... ...Sorry, man, I zoned out a bit there.

I don't know if you've ever been to NYC, but you do not attempt to wake up or bother a sleeping homeless person (which the dude in the video looked like he was on the floor like that.)

There's pretty much a kind of "let them be" attitude when it comes to homeless here, because if you call the cops all thats going to happen is, the homeless dude will be woken up, he'll wander off and just fall asleep on someones doorstep or something.

I come from the most impoverished part of London, which is also kind of a big city, so I know what a sleeping tramp tends to look like and I know what it tends to look like when someone has ended up unwillingly unconscious. For big city dwellers like us, who are such connoisseurs of vagrant sleeping positions, it is sometimes even possible to, say, distinguish between a guy on his way home who has sat down on some steps and passed out in a sitting position, and a tramp who is having a quiet moment on said staircase - although a gentle shoulder shake and a 'you all right there, mate?' is very useful in making the diagnosis.

Even if the police do little more than what you have said, that's still enough to save a life in some cases. Back in London, the police would also provide vagrants with details of nearby hostels, or even lock them up in the cells for their own protection if it's a quiet enough night/the hobo is very drunk. And the Met are the most thuggish bunch of sadistic bastards around, on the whole, so I can't imagine the NYPD being more more ineffectual or unwilling to deal with tramps.

There's a reason why people in big cities get a reputation for self-obsessed twattishness, so while it's easy to describe the actions of those passers-by in terms of self-interest, that does nothing to dispel this reputation. Likewise, I think people who live in shitty neighbourhoods, where everyone is out for themselves, lose some of their right to complain about the neighbourhood in those terms when they're gifted a small opportunity to turn the tide and don't, because it's slightly easier not to. What they should realise, in that instant, is 'the shitty neighbourhood is people like me'.


BTW Bad^Hat you wasted SO much thread space there. It's busting at the seams now, no space left at all.

 

[dfc05]

The idea of the prone man being a waiting attacker is a kind of farfetched ambush that's about as likely as having a mugger jump down off the scaffolding to attack you. Even if it's just a sleeping drunk who may very well turn out to be fine, the most you're likely to lose by calling in his ear or patting his cheek is the dignity involved in being told to 'rrrrrfugoff'.

Fair enough. Some people will do ridiculous crap for stupid stuff like your cellphone. A couple of students got attacked while walking home by some guy that jumped out and pepper sprayed them. Someone else got robbed (in daylight) by a dude who jumped out of a car. There is one run-down neighborhood here where they have aggravated assaults all over the place (on crime maps, that place lights up like a Christmas tree). If I were forced to walk through there at night, I'd absolutely avoid everyone. I guess people just have different senses of personal safety.

And I'm being totally honest when I say that guy didn't appear to be in any trouble to me. I'm not trying to rationalize anything. People mistake dead for sleeping all the time. Anyways, I guess if I took any lesson here, it would be to call the police if I see a guy lying on the sidewalk. Can't say I would ever put myself in a position for any random dude on the street to grab me though.

 

[Krynn72]

'God damn bums' in my experience don't find it too easy to sleep face down out in the middle of the pavement.

You've got some pretty limited experience then. Because when I lived in Orlando, I was always amazed at the ability for drunks and homeless (drunks) to be able to passout in the most awkward and uncomfortable positions. Even in my apartment complex there would be drunk college kids who passout by the pool face down in a bush, or on the rocky dirt.

 

[Laivasse]

If you can only sleep that way because you've knocked yourself out with alcohol, then that's not 'easy'. Note that Virus' statement which I was responding to said nothing about him being drunk but simply 'sleeping'.

Assuming that Tale-Yax had been someone who was passed out drunk, like I've said, how does that change anything? Liver failure, vomit choking, banging his head as he fell, likelihood of him being robbed - all good reasons why you should do anything but pass on by if your assumption is that he's passed out there because of one too many. I would hope that the drunk college kids you saw would at least be checked on by their friends or passers-by to ensure that they weren't in the process of kicking the bucket due to acute alcohol intoxication - if not, then that's the same deal.

An aversion to touching drunk homeless people (who may turn out to be neither drunk nor homeless) isn't a great reason not to check on a prone figure.

 

[ShadowArmy]

I'll be blunt here: if I witnessed somebody getting badly hurt, I would immediately walk the other way and pretend to notice nothing. I like living a peaceful, steady life without situations like this to mess with my day-to-day life. Yeah, it would suck if I was the one hurt, but I'm not reckless or stupid enough to be in that situation in the first place. Because:

1. I don't live in any big cities or high-crime areas and never will.
2. I'm not a daredevil in any way shape or form
3. I will not attempt to stop somebody with a weapon ever.
4. I won't wander ANYWHERE alone at night
5. I avoid having a social life so I don't make enemies

Its not my fault that some people fail because they don't subscribe to any of the above. It just goes to show that there are distinct advantages to living an easygoing quiet life. And TO HELL with anyone that criticizes me for it!

 

[VirusType2]

If you can only sleep that way because you've knocked yourself out with alcohol, then that's not 'easy'. Note that Virus' statement which I was responding to said nothing about him being drunk but simply 'sleeping'.

I've been saying I thought he looked like an ordinary passed out drug vagrant since the first page: http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3140606&postcount=6

Also, I've slept in a ditch passed out before, face down. I think it's the best position to sleep in when you feel drunk enough to throw up. It's not like he was laying on his face, he was laying on his arm. It's all concrete there, no matter where you go.

 

[Solaris]

"5. I avoid having a social life so I don't make enemies"


....

 

[CptStern]

"5. I avoid having a social life so I don't make enemies"


....

the flipside is that when he dies a hermit no one will know. well maybe the neighbours will notice the foul order coming from the hermit house

 

[Rizzo]

Yeah, that's the pussiest list i have ever seen. Good God man, man the **** up.

 

[Sheepo]

I'll be blunt here: if I witnessed somebody getting badly hurt, I would immediately walk the other way and pretend to notice nothing. I like living a peaceful, steady life without situations like this to mess with my day-to-day life. Yeah, it would suck if I was the one hurt, but I'm not reckless or stupid enough to be in that situation in the first place. Because:

1. I don't live in any big cities or high-crime areas and never will.
2. I'm not a daredevil in any way shape or form
3. I will not attempt to stop somebody with a weapon ever.
4. I won't wander ANYWHERE alone at night
5. I avoid having a social life so I don't make enemies

Its not my fault that some people fail because they don't subscribe to any of the above. It just goes to show that there are distinct advantages to living an easygoing quiet life. And TO HELL with anyone that criticizes me for it!

Wow man, you are doing it wrong. Though I think being a monk or hermit would be a cool experience(for a while, and then returning to normal life).

 

[Adrik_Senturu]

Homeless people don't choose to sleep in the most uncomfortable position possible if they can avoid it.

Im just gonna go ahead and guess that we must have a different breed of homeless then, because homeless in NYC fall asleep wherever the ****. It's really not that uncommon to find a homeless dude sleeping the way the guy in the video was laying on the floor.

The idea of the prone man being a waiting attacker is a kind of farfetched ambush that's about as likely as having a mugger jump down off the scaffolding to attack you. Even if it's just a sleeping drunk who may very well turn out to be fine, the most you're likely to lose by calling in his ear or patting his cheek is the dignity involved in being told to 'rrrrrfugoff'.

Is it really that farfetched to not wake up a homeless man because you have no idea how he might react, and it might be violently?

 

[Krynn72]

If you can only sleep that way because you've knocked yourself out with alcohol, then that's not 'easy'. Note that Virus' statement which I was responding to said nothing about him being drunk but simply 'sleeping'.

Show me one homeless guy who isn't also a drunk. You can't.

An aversion to touching drunk homeless people (who may turn out to be neither drunk nor homeless) isn't a great reason not to check on a prone figure.

Whatever bro, when you get bitten or stabbed or vomited on, don't come crying to hl2.net. You don't mess with hobos. You've been warned.

 

[Solaris]

Whatever bro, when you get bitten or stabbed or vomited on, don't come crying to hl2.net. You don't mess with hobos. You've been warned.

Again not true. Me and a friend once helped out a homeless man on a bycle who was being abused and attacked by a few young lads.

Turns out he was a genuinely nice chap and we often talk to him when we see him cycling around Belfast. He turned down our offer of drink too.

 

[Laivasse]

I've been saying I thought he looked like an ordinary passed out drug vagrant since the first page: http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3140606&postcount=6

So? I've acknowledged that it's possible to interpret that he was an out-of-it drunk, and exactly why someone like that should be checked on anyway. I've also said that he's not really any more likely to have gone to sleep in that position - as in curled up yawned and closed his eyes - as he was to have collapsed into it.

Also, I've slept in a ditch passed out before, face down. I think it's the best position to sleep in when you feel drunk enough to throw up. It's not like he was laying on his face, he was laying on his arm. It's all concrete there, no matter where you go.

This might make a difference if it was true, but it isn't in this case. His right arm is clearly pressed against the ground beside him. His left is tucked underneath his body and his head is against the bare concrete. Has he chosen to sleep in this way, without propping his head, finding an out of the way spot or a less unyielding surface like his own jacket? Or has he collapsed, either due to alcohol, knives or bullets? Why inflate the possibility of the former scenario without considering the latter? Why consider the latter scenario and assume he's fine when he might really need help, as Tale-Yax did?

Also, I've slept in a ditch passed out before, face down. I think it's the best position to sleep in when you feel drunk enough to throw up.

Would you not have wanted to be checked on while sleeping in that ditch? Why (other than for their own convenience) should people assume that you're fine, when there are a multitude of reasons why you could have been in serious need of help? One reason being alcohol.

Im just gonna go ahead and guess that we must have a different breed of homeless then, because homeless in NYC fall asleep wherever the ****. It's really not that uncommon to find a homeless dude sleeping the way the guy in the video was laying on the floor.

Perhaps they do fall asleep wherever the **** in NYC, as opposed to those I've seen who don't go out of their way to make their lives any more uncomfortable than they already are, and indeed go to some quite elaborate lengths to gain a small bit of comfort where they can.

I'm going to go out on a limb, though, and guess that they also collapse and die wherever the ****, too. Someone who dies wrapped in a sleeping bag or in a doorway does not give you much cause to check on them at 5am. Someone lying in the middle of a sidewalk does. Considering the possibility that I might be walking past someone who is bleeding to death cold, lonely and scared - or even dying boozed up and oblivious - I like to think that I would at least check. People here apparently like to block out that possibility and assume that such a person is fine, which is a shame - my initial reaction to this thread.

Is it really that farfetched to not wake up a homeless man because you have no idea how he might react, and it might be violently?

Yeah, I'd say it was farfetched, considering that the most likely scenario people seem to be entertaining here, just above the possibility of personal attack, is that someone in that position is too drunk to do anything, including propping his head or shifting over to a doorway. People sometimes do get lured into traps and ambushed, by people in cars or bushes, but it's not so common that fear of it should override everything else in life, not to mention that starting out face down or with eyes closed is about the most counter-intuitive starting position for any person after your wallet. I mean, go too far down that road and you end up in the bizarro-land of ShadowArmy's list, where ninjas are waiting to attack you from every shadow of the night.

Why consider only the two very disparate possibilities that he is either completely wasted (and in no need of any medical help or directions to a hostel), or waiting to spring up and pose a real threat? Why ignore the very real likelihood (which turned out to be true) of him being someone who hasn't chosen to be where he is, who needs help? I'd suggest that it's because people prioritise a minute risk to their own safety over a potentially considerable risk to someone else's, then they don't like to accept that that's what they're doing. Everyone is susceptible to this, but I think it's a shame when they're content to let an underdog suffer as a result.

Show me one homeless guy who isn't also a drunk. You can't.

What do you expect me to say to this? "I DO know a sober homeless guy and HE'S HERE TONIGHT!" *gameshow reveal*? Not sure what you're saying, either. All homeless people are drunks and collapse face down in the middle of sidewalks whenever they go to sleep...? Really?

Whatever bro, when you get bitten or stabbed or vomited on, don't come crying to hl2.net. You don't mess with hobos. You've been warned.

Clearly hl2.net would not be the best place to come to if I was stabbed, anyway...

 

[Solaris]

Laivasse, you're a fine human being and good addition to this community.

 

[Laivasse]

Solaris, you're a strange, filthy marxist-neocon hybrid. But you're very nice.

 

[VirusType2]

Well, I'm going from memory here, I watched the video days ago. As I remembered it, his head was not on the pavement. I take your word for it though. But you make it out that I have a reason to stretch the truth.

As I stated early in the thread, the night vision camera clearly shows detail better than the human eye. And people don't want to look at drunken wastrels sleeping on the street or dead bodies laying in the street in the middle of the night. And they didn't.

Nobody is saying that everyone acted in the best way. We are saying this is not shocking nor inexcusable. Maybe you walk the ghetto streets at night saving people who don't appear to be the type anyone else would want to disturb.

Several phone calls to authorities isn't satisfactory to save humanity from it's new lowest point. You want people to become Emergency Medical Technicians so when they traverse the ghetto they can stop whatever busy schedule they have and investigate and resuscitate hobos.


It's interesting because I actually have experience here. I came home one time to find my friendly acquaintance (a 14 year old neighbor) laying on the curb along the street, 150 feet away. As I drove past, my lights shined on him. I knew who it was, and I drove 150 feet up the street to my house, and prepared to walk inside, knowing nothing.

It was out of the ordinary yes. But it was a weekend night, around 10pm. I knew the kid was experimenting with marijuana and alcohol. I was certain he was completely wasted on alcohol, nothing more.

Like I said earlier (and told the whole story here before), by the time I was 13, I had been through the same thing, so drunk I couldn't stand up and sleeping it off by the side of the road.

Who wants to mess with people so drunk they can't stand up? The biggest repellent known to man. God damn, drunks are annoying.

However, as I walked to my door, I heard him calling my name. I'm like "what?" ... ****ing lush. Yes, I had shit to do. I was eating some fast food that I had picked up that was getting cold. But after I said "what?", he called me again. He even sounded drunk. I walked down there to him and he said he had been shot. I knew time is very important when someone is critically wounded, and I sprung into action like a ****ing hero. But I had no idea he was hurt or in danger. It never crossed my mind.

In retrospect it may be obvious, but people don't expect to see people morally wounded, and therefore it doesn't even occur to them.

 

[dfc05]

I've also said that he's not really any more likely to have gone to sleep in that position - as in curled up yawned and closed his eyes - as he was to have collapsed into it.This might make a difference if it was true, but it isn't in this case. His right arm is clearly pressed against the ground beside him. His left is tucked underneath his body and his head is against the bare concrete. Has he chosen to sleep in this way, without propping his head, finding an out of the way spot or a less unyielding surface like his own jacket? Or has he collapsed, either due to alcohol, knives or bullets?

Holy crap man. In the first place, most people avoid looking directly at strangers on the street because often that is considered rude or offensive. Secondly, you're walking down the street. You have maybe 3 seconds in passing to assess the situation. During that 3 seconds, apparently at least several people here's first thought would be "Dude's sleepin..." (No we are NOT making an excuse. I don't see why it's so incomprehensible that someone could make an honest mistake here upon glancing at the guy.) Anyways, in that case, obviously you are going to just keep walking because nothing appears out of the ordinary. Normal people are not going to stand there studying this guy for five minutes while jumping through probabilistic calculation hoops like, "Hmm. I should check out where exactly his arm is positioned. If he were sleeping, his arm would more likely be under his head. But in this case, his arm is under his body. So maybe this means he's not asleep. I would certainly not choose to sleep like that. But maybe not everyone sleeps the way I sleep. How exactly is his head positioned? It looks like it might be touching the ground WTF?!?! But if he were sleeping, he would have taken his jacket off and put it under his head!!! But then he would get cold, so maybe he really is sleeping!!!!! OMG I NEED TO CHECK THIS DUDE OUT."

Everyone who passed him without stopping is not an evil, utterly selfish person. Most of them are at worst merely unobservant. It's not like anyone walks around looking for people splayed across the ground unless you have some weird kind of hero complex.

[edit]
Crap just read what Virus said 'cause wow I type slow .

[edit2] Virus's story reminded me of this time in the dorm where the girl next door yelled "Help! Get the RA!" because her roommate was ill. I just happened to be walking out of my room and my room was next to the RA's, and without even thinking, I banged on that door like a lunatic and ran around getting water for this girl. And this was not just me, but EVERY SINGLE person who was in the hall at the moment. The 24-hr help desk downstairs must've been flooded with frantic people trying to get help. No sign of "bystander syndrome"... no selfish people sitting around thinking "Man it's just some retard yelling in the hall again." So I think we should all just stop accusing the world of being less-holy-than-thou and rest assured that if there is obvious trouble, the vast majority of people will help.

 

[Krynn72]

What do you expect me to say to this? "I DO know a sober homeless guy and HE'S HERE TONIGHT!" *gameshow reveal*?

That sounds fun. Yeah, do that.

 

[VirusType2]

Yeah, he's HOMELESS. He sleeps on the sidewalk every single night. It's congruent.

People see what they expect to see.

In Baghdad, you see someone laying on the street, you would think he was shot dead right? Because that's what you expect. But what if it was just someone who was drunk and sleeping, you'd be surprised right?

In the suburbs with a low crime rate, you don't expect to see a 14 year old become a victim of a drive-by in your upper middle class neighborhood. It's not congruent.

 

[Laivasse]

@ Virus - I wasn't trying to make out you were lying about the vid. I assumed you'd forgotten it, which is why you were wrong. I didn't even mention any BS about first aid.

'People don't want to deal with drunks or dead/dying people just because they don't, and drunks are annoying' just isn't good enough to my mind. Your story is interesting but it does reinforce the point that anyone in that position should be investigated. You still seem to be operating on the basis that passed out drunk = perfectly fine, when in the real world plenty of people die that way.

@Virus and dfc - As for the point that you wouldn't have known, maybe Virus didn't consider that his friend needed help. Maybe dfc wouldn't. But there's this inequality here where you're willing to ascribe the purest, most blameless attributes to the bystanders in the vid, while writing off any guy on the floor, regardless of his position, as a peacefully sleeping, irritating yet dangerous (while incapacitated) drunk.

I'm not accusing you of conscious dishonesty, but I'm afraid it just doesn't look too good when your perspective just happens to enable you to walk guiltlessly past people who might need help, while at the same time maintaining the rosiest possible view of humanity. Meanwhile, people like ShadowArmy just bluntly come out and say 'I would have walked away even if I saw him getting hurt' and little granules of dissonance creep into the things you say like 'actually I would have considered him dangerous' (which he's very unlikely to be if too wasted to stand) or 'I just hate dealing with drunks'. I'm saying that out of convenience, people like to construct a reality in their heads which often doesn't correspond with real reality. And furthermore I have seen groups of people turns their backs on people getting hurt, because they collectively bullshitted themselves out of any responsibility.

I don't doubt that more people would respond if Tale-Yax had been obviously hurt. When someone is obviously hurt, it blows all that self-delusion away and you're forced to help as long as you don't want to end up hating yourself. That doesn't change the fact that yes, what you're seeing in the video is selfishness, yes, it is inexcusable behaviour for people who consider themselves in any way compassionate, or people who ever expect help themselves.

 

[VirusType2]

Maybe you're right Laviasse. Maybe I'd rather eat my french fries than make a phone call that could potentially save the life of my friend. I'm just a heartless and selfish soul. It's dishonest for me to say that I didn't expect him to help himself up.

No. He managed to walk there, he can walk back.

Come on. Let's get real, bro.

The annual average number of deaths for which alcohol poisoning was listed as an underlying cause was 317, with an age-adjusted death rate of 0.11 per 100,000 population. An average of 1,076 additional deaths included alcohol poisoning as a contributing cause, bringing the total number of deaths with any mention of alcohol poisoning to 1,393 per year (0.49 per 100,000 population)

In the entire United States in an entire year.

Compare the chances of someone having alcohol poisoning to the chances of a homeless man to sleep outside of a home.

 

[Adrik_Senturu]

I'm going to go out on a limb, though, and guess that they also collapse and die wherever the ****, too. Someone who dies wrapped in a sleeping bag or in a doorway does not give you much cause to check on them at 5am. Someone lying in the middle of a sidewalk does. Considering the possibility that I might be walking past someone who is bleeding to death cold, lonely and scared - or even dying boozed up and oblivious - I like to think that I would at least check.

He wasn't visibly injured so I guess that point is kind of moot really. If the man had been visibly injured im sure SOMEONE would have called the cops, but he wasn't so I guess maybe you should stop sperging out and trying to be some kind of internet hero???

Yeah, I'd say it was farfetched, considering that the most likely scenario people seem to be entertaining here, just above the possibility of personal attack, is that someone in that position is too drunk to do anything, including propping his head or shifting over to a doorway. People sometimes do get lured into traps and ambushed, by people in cars or bushes, but it's not so common that fear of it should override everything else in life, not to mention that starting out face down or with eyes closed is about the most counter-intuitive starting position for any person after your wallet. I mean, go too far down that road and you end up in the bizarro-land of ShadowArmy's list, where ninjas are waiting to attack you from every shadow of the night.

Tell you what bro come to New york and if you find any homeless dudes face down on the floor, go ahead and wake them up, im sure they'll be more than grateful, they'll probably thank you and everything and hey you may even get a parade!!!

 

[Laivasse]

Maybe you're right Laviasse. Maybe I'd rather eat my french fries than make a phone call that could potentially save the life of my friend. I'm just a heartless and selfish soul. It's dishonest for me to say that I didn't expect him to help himself up.

No. He managed to walk there, he can walk back.

Come on. Let's get real, bro.

In the entire United States in an entire year.

Compare the chances of someone having alcohol poisoning to the chances of a homeless man to sleep outside of a home.

'Only' around 1700 college students died in 2005 due to drinking and driving but it's still considered a problem. You've also factored out of the stats the possibility of someone dying, or being merely badly hurt, due to alcohol-related injury (eg. a tramp conking his head on the way down). Let's not forget that someone lying on the floor might have been stabbed, although it's not like that ever happens. And yet, some of the people who walked on by will pay money for lotto tickets. While the idea that the guy on the ground might need help never even entered their heads. Of course not. Well if it didn't, it's because they didn't let it.

Spare me your indignation about how I've wounded you with slights on your character or whatever, I already said I wasn't accusing you of lying. You just told an anecdote about driving past and thinking the kid didn't need help when he did, so I assume you learnt a lesson there and now you stop to help whenever there might be a doubt? Right? Or is getting involved with unconscious figures still never necessary because of the microscopically tiny probability of them being hurt?

He wasn't visibly injured so I guess that point is kind of moot really. If the man had been visibly injured im sure SOMEONE would have called the cops, but he wasn't so I guess maybe you should stop sperging out and trying to be some kind of internet hero???

No it isn't moot, in fact I dealt with that already. Accusing me of trying to be an internet hero is grade A defensive bullshit, nice one. Tell you what, **** all those people who try to keep an eye out for other people, what sanctimonious pricks they are. Whew, it's a relief not to have to do what they do now that we've rumbled their little arrogant game, right?

Tell you what bro come to New york and if you find any homeless dudes face down on the floor, go ahead and wake them up, im sure they'll be more than grateful, they'll probably thank you and everything and hey you may even get a parade!!!

Yeah, or maybe like you I should just hide indoors at night with my hands over my head and pray to the NYC gods that no feeble drunks terrorise me by coming crashing through my window.

 

[Adrik_Senturu]

No it isn't moot, in fact I dealt with that already. Accusing me of trying to be an internet hero is grade A defensive bullshit, nice one. Tell you what, **** all those people who try to keep an eye out for other people, what sanctimonious pricks they are. Whew, it's a relief not to have to do what they do now that we've rumbled their little arrogant game, right?

Oh people help each other all the time in NYC you'll actually find theres a lot of nice people here besides the bad rap we get sometimes, but you know no one helps the homeless because they are usually drunk, do not want to be helped, or may be violent which brings us to our next little laffo.

Yeah, or maybe like you I should just hide indoors at night with my hands over my head and pray to the NYC gods that no feeble drunks terrorise me by coming crashing through my window.

Here look I'll lay it out for you cus I guess you're just incapable of understanding, but its cool because you know you don't live here so you wouldn't know.

I see a homeless person on the street face down. Probably drunk and passed out, or just slept in an odd position. I can:

A. Wake him up. Living in NYC I know he may react violently. When I say violently it can range anywhere from him telling me to go **** myself while he stays put, or him actually starting a fight. You never know in NYC.

B. I can just not risk it and go about my day like every other person in NYC does on a daily basis.

 

[Laivasse]

Of course, I'm incapable of understanding that NYC is a twilight zone where all the normal trends of human behaviour break down, every passive onlooker is a misunderstood Gandhi and homeless people are in fact an inscrutable subspecies who breathe in alcohol and human blood then shit out badassery.

A. Wake him up. Living in NYC I know he may react violently. When I say violently it can range anywhere from him telling me to go **** myself while he stays put, or him actually starting a fight. You never know in NYC.

Someone may come charging around the corner with a machete. A drunk driver may career off the road and kill you. You'd be out at 5am after all, I hear some people don't even go out when it gets dark for precisely reasons like those.

Yeah, he may react physically, but in the unlikely event of that happening, the last I checked you were standing up and he was on the floor. If he's able to move, why do you even need to hang around? And again we're in this unsupported hypothetical scenario where a guy lying on the floor has suddenly become a standing threat. Perhaps he's a champion runner and master of drunken fist techniques also. Or he may actually be lying there because he's hurt, as Tale-Yax was and quite a lot of people lying down in the middle of footpaths tend to be. It's all just inflating the possibility of personal risk so that risk to others doesn't have to be dealt with.

B. I can just not risk it and go about my day like every other person in NYC does on a daily basis.

You can do whatever the hell you like.

 

[VirusType2]

'Only' around 1700 college students died in 2005 due to drinking and driving but it's still considered a problem. You've also factored out of the stats the possibility of someone dying, or being merely badly hurt, due to alcohol-related injury (eg. a tramp conking his head on the way down). Let's not forget that someone lying on the floor might have been stabbed, although it's not like that ever happens. And yet, some of the people who walked on by will pay money for lotto tickets. While the idea that the guy on the ground might need help never even entered their heads. Of course not. Well if it didn't, it's because they didn't let it.

Spare me your indignation about how I've wounded you with slights on your character or whatever, I already said I wasn't accusing you of lying. You just told an anecdote about driving past and thinking the kid didn't need help when he did, so I assume you learnt a lesson there and now you stop to help whenever there might be a doubt? Right? Or is getting involved with unconscious figures still never necessary because of the microscopically tiny probability of them being hurt?No it isn't moot, in fact I dealt with that already. Accusing me of trying to be an internet hero is grade A defensive bullshit, nice one. Tell you what, **** all those people who try to keep an eye out for other people, what sanctimonious pricks they are. Whew, it's a relief not to have to do what they do now that we've rumbled their little arrogant game, right?Yeah, or maybe like you I should just hide indoors at night with my hands over my head and pray to the NYC gods that no feeble drunks terrorise me by coming crashing through my window.

Laviasse, I have a lot of respect for you, so let me apologize for being condescending or whatever. Actually, this is the first time I have disagreed with anything you've ever said, at least as far as I remember. However, I just completely disagree with you here.

Here are some things for your further consideration:

You put the odds of someone having alcohol poisoning or being stabbed to death on par with the odds of a homeless man sleeping outside.

I didn't say "he couldn't stand", you're confusing it with my personal story. In referring to the actual topic said "drunk and sleeping."

*Drunk people can be extremely violent and dangerous, this is news from 1384 B.C. However can you find this unrealistic?

*Homeless people tend to not have anything valuable, yet highly desire money and valuables. Furthermore, they haven't as much to lose by injuring or robbing others, because if they are sent to jail they receive food, shelter, and a mattress and pillow that could pass for luxury comfort compared to the streets.

I don't suppose we are going to agree that we should give people the benefit of the doubt, so there's no point in arguing until we despise each other.

 

[Adrik_Senturu]

Of course, I'm incapable of understanding that NYC is a twilight zone where all the normal trends of human behaviour break down, every passive onlooker is a misunderstood Gandhi and homeless people are in fact an inscrutable subspecies who breathe in alcohol and human blood then shit out badassery.Someone may come charging around the corner with a machete.

Bro not gonna lie NYC is kind of scary at night.

Someone may come charging around the corner with a machete. A drunk driver may career off the road and kill you. You'd be out at 5am after all, I hear some people don't even go out when it gets dark for precisely reasons like those.

Except the homeless dude freaking out on me is something I can probably avoid altogether while the things you just listed I have no control over. Nice try though!

Or he may actually be lying there because he's hurt, as Tale-Yax was and quite a lot of people lying down in the middle of footpaths tend to be.

Damn bro you're completely right I better leave my building to go help all the homeless sleeping on the sidewalk they must all be mortally wounded to just be laying in the middle of the sidewalk like that.

Yeah, he may react physically, but in the unlikely event of that happening, the last I checked you were standing up and he was on the floor. If he's able to move, why do you even need to hang around?

Or you know I could just avoid the situation altogether by not waking him up that works too just in case you didnt know

 

[Laivasse]

Laviasse, I have a lot of respect for you, so let me apologize for being condescending or whatever. Actually, this is the first time I have disagreed with anything you've ever said, at least as far as I remember. However, I just completely disagree with you here.

Right back at you on all points.

Here are some things for your further consideration:

You put the odds of someone having alcohol poisoning or being stabbed to death on par with the odds of a homeless man sleeping outside.

No, I don't. I said that 'if he looks like he's collapsed, chances are he's collapsed'. However, I don't equate collapsed with being hurt or dying. I just equate it with needing to be checked on. It is indeed the most likely scenario that someone in that position needs to sleep something off. However this cannot be known until you provoke a minor response. What makes the odds of alcohol poisoning/stabbing/miscellaneous injury/general risk significant are the consequences. The reason why you should pay more consideration to the possibility that he's hurt, as opposed to the possibility that he isn't, is because the latter is of very little consequence.

I didn't say "he couldn't stand", you're confusing it with my personal story. I said "drunk and sleeping."

I'm having to respond to different interpretations of what Tale-Yax looked like on the floor and conflate them together. Some seem to think it looks like he chose that place as a sleeping spot, others say it looks like he passed out. Passed out to me means unable to stand.

*Drunk people can be extremely violent and dangerous, this is news from 1384 B.C. However can you find this unrealistic?

I find it less much likely than other, more consequential scenarios given the facts on hand. Drunk, sleeping people tend to be mostly drunk and sleepy. Tale-Yax did not look like he was sleeping to me at all. With his hand placement and general 'I don't give a crap where my body is' attitude, he looked like someone collapsed in the street, which is exactly what he was. Does a tramp genuinely look like they're sleeping? Fine, don't wake them up. Do they look like they may have fallen? Call out, maybe even work up the balls of steel supposedly required to pat their shoulder, phone the cops if no response.

*Homeless people tend to not have anything valuable, yet highly desire money and valuables. Furthermore, they haven't as much to lose by injuring or robbing others, because if they are sent to jail they receive food and shelter, and a mattress and pillow that could pass for luxury comfort compared to the streets.

Yeah, well, think of people like that and they're more likely to behave like that, because eventually they realise that they're not going to get any quarter from anyone. I still don't agree that it applies here, since there are much more effective ways to rob someone than pretend you're out cold, or indeed to try to get up and attack them when you've just woken up from a blind stupor.

I don't suppose we are going to agree that we should give people the benefit of the doubt, so there's no point in arguing until we despise each other.

I think that people should be given the benefit of the doubt when you're the only person in a position to give it and the consequences could be grave if you don't. If we don't agree then we don't agree.

Except the homeless dude freaking out on me is something I can probably avoid altogether while the things you just listed I have no control over. Nice try though!

I just told you how you can control them: you could not go out, you could not associate or interact with people. ShadowArmy's approach is zany but it is somewhat logical because he has realised that risk is inescapable in a life involving other people, yet he wants to avoid pretty much all risk. My take is that if you want to be a responsible citizen, you have to take the minor risk associated with making sure the occasional guy you find flat on his face isn't dead.

Damn bro you're completely right I better leave my building to go help all the homeless sleeping on the sidewalk they must all be mortally wounded to just be laying in the middle of the sidewalk like that.

If you find any who look like they collapsed like the guy in the vid did, knock yourself out.

Or you know I could just avoid the situation altogether by not waking him up that works too just in case you didnt know

It does, in terms of preserving you against every risk, however insignificant. You would just get called out on the fact that you didn't act selflessly, but NYC sounds so hellish that should be water off a duck's back.

 

[Adrik_Senturu]

I just told you how you can control them

Right but assuming Im outside for whatever reason at 5am the things you listed are out of my control, while me waking up a hobo and him possibly freaking out is.

It does, in terms of preserving you against every risk, however insignificant. You would just get called out on the fact that you didn't act selflessly, but NYC sounds so hellish that should be water off a duck's back.

See bro, thats the thing. I get where you're coming from, but you don't live here. Im not trying to say NYC is some hellhole where every single hobo has a knife ready to attack, but the general attitude here is better safe than sorry. Thats just how it is here. None of the people in the video were not waking the guy up out of fear or whatever, it's because that's how you it is. You see a dude laying on the street and 99% of the time it's some hobo who would probably not want you bothering him. It's just the attitude here. You really can't blame anyone in that video save for the lady who just chose to go home like nothing happened after almost being mugged.

 

[Laivasse]

Well that's a shame. I think everyone might be safer if everyone felt a bit sorrier.

 

[nurizeko]

Morality circle-jerk, I call this case closed.

Homeless looking hobo guy looks passed out on the streets of New York.

He actually came to the aid of a woman being attacked (which in itself utterly shoots down the whole 'bystander' boohoo morality holier than thou fest) he got stabbed, collapsed in a way no-one could see his wounds in the middle of the night.

People walk by seeing just another drunken hobo passed out on the streets (because god forbid a drunken homeless person might sleep on THE STREETS! :O).

Guy dies.

It's a tragedy....really, it is an utter crying shame....but it is most certainly not a damning judgement on the ethical state of the human race, mkay?


Case closed, next stupid thread kthanx.