Metal gear solid?

[Sparta]

I honestly think Hideo needs to become familiar with the word "brevity" as well. There was so much superfluous dialogue and cutscenes that I swear I spent more time watching the game rather than playing it.

Yeah i got the feeling too.

 

[DeusExMachina]

I'll admit, MGS2 did seem pretentious.

 

[French Ninja]

Anyone else think the first game is ridiculously pretentious and contradicting?

Hells yeah.
In the original games, Snake was supposed to be a veteren in the Grenada conflict. If we were to follow the MGS1 timeline; having Snake

Spoiler

cloned

in the 70's; that would mean snake would have been in his teens at the most.

 

[DeusExMachina]

MGS1 took place during 2001. And he was cloned in the early 70s. So he was in his early thirties during MGS1. And, MG 1 and 2 took place in the mid 90s.

 

[Gargantou]

There was so much superfluous dialogue and cutscenes that I swear I spent more time watching the game rather than playing it.

That's because you DID, iirc 3/4ths of the game is codec convos and cutscenes, but I can't confirm that for sure.

 

[French Ninja]

MGS1 took place during 2001. And he was cloned in the early 70s. So he was in his early thirties during MGS1. And, MG 1 and 2 took place in the mid 90s.

I ment in Grenada. The other stuff is logical though.

 

[DeusExMachina]

I ment in Grenada. The other stuff is logical though.

When was grenada? Early 90s?

 

[Gray Fox]

So what if half the game is codec and cutscenes, the other half offers better and more original gameplay then other games. Games like hl1, CoD, MP1&2, basicly have the same length of gameplay without the cutscenes. Hence with mgs you get 2 times more then what you pay for, a great game and good story.
And Hideo is not pretentious IMO, there is nothing wrong with having social commentary, exploring new ways of telling stories. There are stories you read/watch and have fun while doing it, and after that you move on and forget them. Then you have stories that you learn from, that change you, they way you percieve the world around you, the kind that sticks with you. MGS may have only lasted 10 hours as a game, but it's legacy sticks with you. That or you just don't get the stories and don't eevn bother to try. Well if you are do lazy to even read the links provided in this thread, then don't expect your comments to hold much weight.



























































Oh and Raiden > You

 

[jimbo118]

the official metal gear solid 2 strategy guide explains the story of mgs1 and 2 and their links extremely well and concisely, you should check it out, google it for scans...

 

[French Ninja]

When was grenada? Early 90s?

Early 80's
http://www.historyguy.com/Grenada.html

 

[DeusExMachina]

Hmm, I guess that wouldn't make a lot of sense.

But you have to remember, the original MG games are no longer canon in the MGS universe. Kojima said this when working on MGS3. At the end of the game, there's a short timeline that shows what happens over the next decade or so and it shows Solid and Liquid's birth.

 

[Absinthe]

So what if half the game is codec and cutscenes, the other half offers better and more original gameplay then other games. Games like hl1, CoD, MP1&2, basicly have the same length of gameplay without the cutscenes. Hence with mgs you get 2 times more then what you pay for, a great game and good story.

I thought MGS2's gameplay was also so-so. The stealth was brutally simple and the combat kinda sucked. I don't have my copy of MGS2 on me at the moment, but I know that the total recorded play-time my save file shows is FAR less than that of Half-Life's.

And Hideo is not pretentious IMO, there is nothing wrong with having social commentary, exploring new ways of telling stories. There are stories you read/watch and have fun while doing it, and after that you move on and forget them. Then you have stories that you learn from, that change you, they way you percieve the world around you, the kind that sticks with you. MGS may have only lasted 10 hours as a game, but it's legacy sticks with you. That or you just don't get the stories and don't eevn bother to try. Well if you are do lazy to even read the links provided in this thread, then don't expect your comments to hold much weight.

It's pretentious in that it seems like it's trying to drown you with all this pseudo-intellectual babble. It's as if Hideo was trying to mentally make me his bitch, or summat. All I wanted was to play a game.
I've learned nothing from the MGS series. A lot of its concepts are things you can learn in any intro course to psychology or philosophy. In the end, I found the games to be mostly forgettable. It's not an issue of being unable to "get" the stories. It's that they reached a point where I simply stopped caring and became more frustrated with the increasing uselessness of my controller.

 

[DeusExMachina]

But it isn't pseudo-intellectual babble. Why do people always think movies/music/books/anime/videogames with themes and metaphors are just pseudo-intellectual? Why can't people think for a moment "Hmm, maybe he really is genuine in his message and isn't just trying to look smart." I'm sorry, but I just wanna punch in a window everytime someone says "pseudo-intellectual". Its like a slap in the face to the creator.

 

[Absinthe]

Sorry, but that's how it came off to me. It seemed like Hideo was trying to throw in as many "smart" ideas as he could to make it seem intelligent or clever. The result? I just wanted everybody to shutup. Especially when the over-blown story is sacrificing the gameplay.

SA:
"Revolver Ocelot is a double-agent using Metal Gear Jake for the Patriots who are actually part of the Lee-La-Loo-La-Li-Lee-Loo-Lay, which are sort of like aliens only they're people who live forever and they are tired of- FISSION MAILED!"

 

[kupocake]

SA:
"Revolver Ocelot is a double-agent using Metal Gear Jake for the Patriots who are actually part of the Lee-La-Loo-La-Li-Lee-Loo-Lay, which are sort of like aliens only they're people who live forever and they are tired of- FISSION MAILED!"

Wait... SA wrote that? I thought that WAS the story!

 

[Loc-Dog]

Metal Gear Solid is religion. I can honestly say that i know the entire script of all three games by heart.

 

[Absinthe]

Wait... SA wrote that? I thought that WAS the story!

That's because they didn't need to twist it in any way. The ridiculous nature of the plot stands on its own.

 

[Sui]

I hated the MGS2 plot, as most people did. It was just crap. But the gameplay... the gameplay was stunning. You can't look back on MGS2 and say it is great- you had to experience it for yourself when the PS2 was first revealed. Don't forget, back when it was released, MGS2 had the best graphics and physics of any game out at that time. The stealth was also top notch- there was no splinter cell, or even really a "stealth genre". Thief and MGS were basically the only contenders, and Thief was dated even then.

 

[Jimmeh]

I enjoyed MGS2 a lot, but no where near as much as the first one. MGS2 had far too many cutscenes, not enough playing. I thought the gameplay was great at the time, although I did wonder what was going on when I was naked and a skeleton on my comms was telling me turn off my PS2.

 

[jimbo118]

I enjoyed MGS2 a lot, but no where near as much as the first one. MGS2 had far too many cutscenes, not enough playing. I thought the gameplay was great at the time, although I did wonder what was going on when I was naked and a skeleton on my comms was telling me turn off my PS2.

hehe the arsenal gear bit was great ''sciccors 69'':rolling:

i actually turned off the ps2 when he told me too, i thought it was like a special easter egg for people who had been playing a longtime... :rolling:

 

[kupocake]

hehe the arsenal gear bit was great ''sciccors 69'':rolling:

i actually turned off the ps2 when he told me too, i thought it was like a special easter egg for people who had been playing a longtime... :rolling:

Didn't work on me considering i'd only started playing 5 minutes ago

 

[jimbo118]

opps scissors 61

Colonal: I think its amazing when the famous purple stuffed worm, with a tuning fork! Does a raw blink on hari kari rock. I NEED SCIZZORS! 61!

haha i loved his crazy chat in arsenal gear

''just go home raiden, ill do the fighing now''

''be perfectly honest, im having alot of financial troubles. Thats why i made you pay for lunch the other day. Im having to pay for this divorce settlement with my wife, AMONG OTHER BILLS''

the ones where he implies that rose is seeing another man and when he says leave a message after the beep the goes ''beep''is teh funneh too...

''You got a PSG-1! Good! Now you can save Meryl!"

http://metalgear.ytmnd.com/
:rolling:

 

[Sparta]

But it isn't pseudo-intellectual babble. Why do people always think movies/music/books/anime/videogames with themes and metaphors are just pseudo-intellectual? Why can't people think for a moment "Hmm, maybe he really is genuine in his message and isn't just trying to look smart." I'm sorry, but I just wanna punch in a window everytime someone says "pseudo-intellectual". Its like a slap in the face to the creator.

But the problem with MGS is that its always throwing these philosophical discussions and what not into the players face, while also reminding people that its just a game that you're not supposed to take seriously.

I mean, sitting through a 5-10 minute cutscene on the history of nuclear weapons and the effect of metal gear and all that shit really bored the heck out of me. But at least it would've made me think alot more about that kinda stuff if it didn't constantly remind me that its only a game.

Deus Ex had tons of social commentary and philosophical stuff crammed into the cutscenes in it. Sure, some of it was just bullshit and some of it made a whole lot of sense and i slowly began to take the game seriously. With Metal Gear Solid i just couldn't. Everytime i'd get close to understanding what they're saying about nuclear weapons etc, i'd be greeted with a cutscene with Revolver Ocelot reminding me "There are no continues, it'll be game over". How am i supposed to take it seriously if it keeps reminding me that its a game with those silly cutscenes.

Oh and yeah, i actually did spend more time watching cutscenes than playing the game. As i remember the only period of time i went without watching any cutscenes was when i had to heat up and cool down that card. That had to have taken a half hour. You seriously cannot play that game for 10 minutes without being interrupted with an extremely long cutscene.

Thats why i call it pretentious and contradicting

 

[Th30N3Cr0wbar]

I wanna watch the ending of MGS3, heard so many people saying how good it was.

it's an amazing ending, and you'll end up looking at the game differently

 

[Prince of China]

I think Metal Gear Solid 2 had an awesome opening theme music.

 

[Sui]

But the problem with MGS is that its always throwing these philosophical discussions and what not into the players face, while also reminding people that its just a game that you're not supposed to take seriously.

I mean, sitting through a 5-10 minute cutscene on the history of nuclear weapons and the effect of metal gear and all that shit really bored the heck out of me. But at least it would've made me think alot more about that kinda stuff if it didn't constantly remind me that its only a game.

Deus Ex had tons of social commentary and philosophical stuff crammed into the cutscenes in it. Sure, some of it was just bullshit and some of it made a whole lot of sense and i slowly began to take the game seriously. With Metal Gear Solid i just couldn't. Every time i'd get close to understanding what they're saying about nuclear weapons etc, i'd be greeted with a cutscene with Revolver Ocelot reminding me "There are no continues, it'll be game over". How am i supposed to take it seriously if it keeps reminding me that its a game with those silly cutscenes.

I see what you're saying, but I think it all fits together perfectly. You see, most games develop debates centred around the fictional world they create... e.g, in Dues Ex, it focuses on the groups within the game- the fictional forces that tear you apart. Sure, there's meaning within the fiction that relates to our world, but it's only subtle, and easily overlooked.

Metal Gear Solid does the opposite- it takes real world philosophical debates, and gives them to you in pure form. It gives you to them straight from the game... not as part of it. There are two halves of MGS, after all. One is the game. It's light hearted at some points, but mainly focuses on the characters and what they represent. This part is like a Shakespeare play. It has it's comedy, and it's drama, and it's hidden meanings. It reminds you you're playing a game in the same way that an actor reminds the audience of the play, by speaking directly to them. But the second part is the real world. It fits the real world into the fiction DIRECTLY, not subtly, every time you defeat a boss. You learn of their strifes, their lives... what they went through and how ****ed up war is. At this point, it's not the game throwing more fiction at you, and it's not conflicting between immersion and realisation... it's simply making you look at the reality of it all.

In my opinion, MGS is a masterpiece of emotion. The fiction entices you, revealing the characters and how the interact, love, hate, perish. It encourages you to become Snake. It tempts you to kill everyone, and you do! You enjoy slaughtering the Genome soldiers. And you're in a game. YOU KNOW THAT. It's ****ing obvious you're in a game whether revolver ocelot tells you or not, because there's a television screen in front of you, and a controller in your hand. But, to me, this just represents EXACTLY how Snake feels. He only feels alive on the battlefield... just as you're having the most fun playing the game... and to soldiers in a real war, just like children playing paintball or a teenager hunched over a computer game, killing is enjoyable.

Then is rips you away from the game. YOU seem to observe this as being hypocritical, but it's actually giving you a different perspective. You get to see the consequences. When you hear Sniper Wolf's tragic tale, you realise just what playing the game has caused... just how much pain and suffering those warriors are inflicting when they're caught up in the heat of the moment. And... there really is no difference between you, who is killing guards left and right, and a soldier- shooting anything that moves. War is a game. It can be fun. But when you're taken away from it, when the immersion is broken, you finally see how ****ed up it is.

Oh and yeah, i actually did spend more time watching cutscenes than playing the game. As i remember the only period of time i went without watching any cutscenes was when i had to heat up and cool down that card. That had to have taken a half hour. You seriously cannot play that game for 10 minutes without being interrupted with an extremely long cutscene.

MGS is a story just as much as a game. Most RPGs have about 90% dialogue and 10% actual activity. Everyone respects that, because it's a roleplaying game. You roleplay. But what's this, as soon as an action game does it, it's a bad thing? MGS is successful for the same reasons that Final Fantasy has had so many sequels... because they both tell a story.

 

[Fliko]

I almost like this game better then HL2.
Now I'm gonna become a rabid fanboy, its all your guys fault, you got me addicted!

 

[Absinthe]

MGS is a story just as much as a game. Most RPGs have about 90% dialogue and 10% actual activity. Everyone respects that, because it's a roleplaying game. You roleplay. But what's this, as soon as an action game does it, it's a bad thing? MGS is successful for the same reasons that Final Fantasy has had so many sequels... because they both tell a story.

RPG's allow interaction though. I can move around, I can ask questions, I can control my character. Being able to slightly maneuver the camera around during a cutscene does not constitute interaction in my book.

Telling a story is one thing, but at the end of the day I am playing a game. You could have a script worthy of an oscar in your title, but if I'm not having fun or, god forbid, simply not playing the game more than half the time, then it's clear that the developers should have gone for a different medium, like a book or a movie. It's funny you bring up Final Fantasy, because I have the same issues with those games as well.

*Absinthe uses a spell*

*A demon slowly erupts from the Earth. Swirling flashing lights dance around. The screen shakes. The demon gets up and beats his chest with mighty fury. The lights start changing colors. They move faster and faster. The demon menacingly glares at Absinthe's enemies. He puts his hands together and makes a chanting motion. The lights dissipate. A glow emanates from his hands. Suddenly a piercing light shoots forth to the sky. Then it breaks into a bunch of smaller fractured light beams.*

*Absinthe goes to get a soda.*

*The beams get tinier and tinier, fractured and more fracture, making an awe-inspiring web in the sky. This begins to wobble with a fervent pulse. Fire sets in around the edges, drawing closer to the center. It's engulfed in flames. A giant orb of what can only be described as A THROBBING BALL OF PAIN forms in the center. Slowly it spawns off smaller balls that spread out and position themselves across the web.*

*Absinthe returns.*

*The balls rain down Hell upon the unfortunate foes. A deadly long-lasting blast zone engulfs them. The web breaks apart and dissipates. When the fire and smoke clear, the demon lets out a triumphant laugh and burrows down to the Hell from whence he came. The Earth seals closed and the environment returns to normal. Damage numbers pop up above the enemies.*

*Enemy hits Absinthe.*

*Absinthe does another spell.*

 

[Fliko]

I find the interaction in RPGs very limited, especially dialogue and story.

In the end, you always follow the same story, so I like to find a game that gets me immersered into the game, like MGS.

It also screwed with your mind. It got you involved, you had to do stuff in RL, like, "I'll increase your doseage of painkillers, put the controller on your arm."
That just made me stop and think for a few minutes, "Whoa... talk about interaction".

 

[Sui]

RPG's allow interaction though. I can move around, I can ask questions, I can control my character. Being able to slightly maneuver the camera around during a cutscene does not constitute interaction in my book.

Telling a story is one thing, but at the end of the day I am playing a game. You could have a script worthy of an oscar in your title, but if I'm not having fun or, god forbid, simply not playing the game more than half the time, then it's clear that the developers should have gone for a different medium, like a book or a movie.

That's where you're wrong... the story driven RPGs (Final Fantasy, Skies of Arcadia, Wild Arms to name a few) give the player basically no control whatsoever. The stories are linear, the character evolution is linear (most of the time you go from bieng level 5 to level 6 with very little choice in the matter), and the paths you follow are linear. You think walking around a village and talking to random NPCs is different from slightly controlling the camera? I tell you, it's not! The only difference is you just can't skip past it.

Of course, the RPGs that allow character deviation (Baulder's Gate, Morrowind, NWN etc.) Have extremely bland storiylines that can't entice the player much, because if the player's character is their own, they wouldn't fit into the detailed stories. This is pretty much like the average action game... you run around and shoot things. Or sneak around and stab things. There's very little room for story.

The only reason there aren't more cinematic based action games like MGS is because the average action gamer wants to run around shooting things like an idiot, while the average RPG gamer wants to take things slow and listen to what people have to say. If action gamers like stories, I'm sure there would be many other games like MGS around... but for now, it's unique. That doesn't mean it's a bad game...

*edit* damnit, you edited.

That's a mighty fine description you wrote there. I like it.

*edit2* That will be all from me! I'm going to bed.

 

[Absinthe]

RPG's usually follow a general path, yes. So? How's this different from most other games?
Immersion is not a matter of plot alone. The KOTOR games (sans the shite ending of the second one) got me completely immersed. There was far more soul-baring and character exposition in that game than in the MGS series, IMO. The dark/light point system, the different ways to tackle some quests, the optional character plotlines, and the possibility of killing off my own party near the end... That was what sucked me in.

I have to agree with Sparta that the MGS series felt very gamey. Its self-consciousness bordered on the absurd. "Push X! Push Y! Turn off your PS2! FISSION MAILED! Switch controller ports! Tap O repeatedly!". It detracted from the experience completely.

By the end, I'm thinking "This isn't a game. This is Hideo's little psych experiment and I've wasted my damn money." The game became less of a story I was involved in. I felt more like a spectator that was staring into this world with cold detached eyes.

 

[DeusExMachina]

Another thing I cannot stand...

Is when people insult KOTOR II's amazing ending.

 

[Sparta]

In my opinion, MGS is a masterpiece of emotion. The fiction entices you, revealing the characters and how the interact, love, hate, perish. It encourages you to become Snake. It tempts you to kill everyone, and you do! You enjoy slaughtering the Genome soldiers. And you're in a game. YOU KNOW THAT. It's ****ing obvious you're in a game whether revolver ocelot tells you or not, because there's a television screen in front of you, and a controller in your hand. But, to me, this just represents EXACTLY how Snake feels. He only feels alive on the battlefield... just as you're having the most fun playing the game... and to soldiers in a real war, just like children playing paintball or a teenager hunched over a computer game, killing is enjoyable.

Thats exactly how its contradicting to me. Like i said earlier, points like in that are made in MGS would be much more powerful and evident if the game didn't constantly remind you that its only a game.

Basically i can continue typing my opinion, but its pretty much identical to Absinthe's. So if you've read his, then mines the same.

And yes KOTOR II had a shit ending.

Spoiler

The ship crashes into Malachor V or whatever and after all that hype and character development, half of the characters are never heard of again after, its implied that some of them die, not to mention after you kill the main bad guy you're rewarded with a cutscene that simply shows the ship pick you up and fly off, yet it doesnt explain who it was that was flying it, or where exactly you're going.

Even the developers mentioned how much they thought the ending sucked because of how LucasArts rushed them so much. It was shit

Also, its not that i want to run around like an idiot and shoot things rather than watch cutscenes. I play games, to play games. I'm fine with cutscenes when they're done right like in Resident Evil 4, Deus Ex, or No One Lives Forever etc etc. But christ i dont want to spend the majority of time playing a game watching some cutscene on the history of a bad guys life up until that bad guy tried to blow my brains out. You know, it would've been much more rewarding to have a quick scene like that from Austin Powers.

"People never think when they kill an evil madmens henchmen" .

 

[DeusExMachina]

The ending is the conversation with Kreia, that is the true ending. The ship flying away is only a cut-scene. Explain to me how KOTOR's ending was any better.

 

[Sparta]

That at least had some closure with all the characters before the ending. KOTOR II didn't. It was just Kreia saying what she see's. It was a real jib compared to the original and how it led up to the ending.

 

[DeusExMachina]

I'll admit, the ending could've been better, but I think the ambiguity made it good.

Spoiler

The Mandalorians would one day die out. Mira would die for a cause she believed was right. The Republic would always have its ups and downs.

I don't know, to me, KOTOR II was deeper and had more emotion than KOTOR.

 

[Gray Fox]

I enjoyed MGS2 a lot, but no where near as much as the first one. MGS2 had far too many cutscenes, not enough playing. I thought the gameplay was great at the time, although I did wonder what was going on when I was naked and a skeleton on my comms was telling me turn off my PS2.

This is one of the things that I truly love about mgs.

 

[Absinthe]

The ending is the conversation with Kreia, that is the true ending. The ship flying away is only a cut-scene. Explain to me how KOTOR's ending was any better.

Closure. And the fact that you could tell things were getting sloppy near the end of KOTOR 2.

If I were to compare the main bulk of the games, I'd say that KOTOR 2 had the more satisfying and engrossing storyline and characters. While some people didn't like the moral ambiguity and "gray area" in a universe that's usually strictly black and white (Light/Dark side), I found it intriguing. I liked having more interaction with my party. It actually surpassed the original game.

Then everything started to go wrong. (SPOILERS)

1.) Darth Nihilus, one of the creepiest enemies I have ever encountered in a game, is tremendours let-down not only his toughness, but his actual character. He's reduced to little more than a dude in a mask and the seemingly infinite power that you are led to believe he has never shows itself. A waste. Sion got a similarly rushed treatment, with no backstory development and an anti-climatic battle.

2.) Malachor V. Let's see, I crash there out of the blue, my entire party is gone, I'm all alone, and I'm doing nothing but facing monster after monster. None of my characters are given resolution. I'm allowed to play as Mira to fight Hanharr (who was given life by Kreia, continuing a subplot that went absolutely nowhere) and then that's the last I see of those characters. G0-T0 and the little droid have a little stand-off. Whaddya know, that's never resolved either.

3.) Traya Academy. Room after room of killing dark Jedi. Monotony at its fullest.

4.) The droid planet. Where was the endless supply of assassination droids coming from? Never resolved either.

5.) Multiple endings? Pah! One shows me flying away from Malachor. The other shows the same exact scene but without the ship.

6.) The simplification of the end. After all I've gone through, Kreia deadpans that there is no secret. There is no hidden meaning. You just need to kill her because the force is evil blah blah blah. I felt gipped.

7.) And I don't know about you, but I didn't like having the life stories of my party members laid out to me in text format. I would have actually preferred ambiguity on their part.

It's just so ovious that the end of the game was hacked together to meet a deadline. There's so many loose threads, missing pieces, and half-assed design that it actually ruined the game for me.

http://magestrix.com/K2End/
http://tubertarian.com/kotor2missingcontent.php

I've read through the content that was cut out and it's really good stuff. The ending would have benefited so much had this stuff actually been implemented. There's more emotional involvement, twists, and resolution. Just go read some of the transcripts and listen to the audio clips.

 

[DeusExMachina]

Oh I agree, if LucasArts hadn't rushed them, it could've been a masterpiece. They cut out a LOT of good stuff, but still, I was satisfied with what there was. A lot of characters were actually supposed to die by Kreia's hands too.

 

[Fliko]

The gameplay was still fun though.