Morals vs. Science?

[guitr_freek]

What is your viewpoint on morality vs. science? Do you believe scientists should be able to experiment with what they want without being troubled by the burden of the morality of others? Or do you believe there must be a balance of it? Do you believe, as with Rapture, everything would get out of control and turn dystopic if scientists were allowed to freely experiment?

 

[MJ12]

Morals? That's ridiculous, scientists shouldn't have morals. They're evil!


This is a silly arguement. You might as well make this topic, "Is rape wrong? Should we be able to rape whoever we want?", most likely everyone is going to say "Yes rape is wrong, and no you should not be able to rape people"

Just in the same sense as most people are going to say that Scientists should have some sort of moral standpoint. It's not like we think the Nazi Scientists were good for doing horrifically unethical tests on Jews.
"Hey, those Nazis were terrible for testing Jews in pressure chambers"
"Oh Fredrick please! They are Nazi Scientists"
"Oh ho ho! Silly of me! Scientists are devoid of having any moral responsibilities!"

/inb4someonesaysrapeandkillingjewsisgood.

 

[Naudian]

Or do you believe there must be a balance of it?

Yes that.

Do you believe, as with Rapture, everything would get out of control and turn dystopic if scientists were allowed to freely experiment?

Pretty much.

 

[Eejit]

A balance.

But a lot of people have really retarded 'morals'. Science shouldn't be shackled by what a bunch of zealots wrote about their 'god' thousands of years ago, or even by how people interpret what they wrote.

 

[Acepilotf14]

I think we should be allowed to test on fetuses that aren't going to see life in the first place(i.e., abortion fetuses.)
Yay stem cells!

 

[MorganFreeman911]

Yay stemcell research! It will save us all!

 

[nipples]

I think it depends on what the tests are being conducted on. If scientists want to see if Asians have a chocolate center that is fine, as long as their test subjects are okay with being experimented on.

 

[Adabiviak]

First, one would have to come to an agreement about morals. I think scientists should follow moral guidelines, but what I consider moral is likely to be different from other people.

 

[Pesmerga]

I believe physicists should be allowed to toy with the very fabric that makes up Heaven and Hell without being troubled by the inconsequential trivialities of societal normalcy.

 

[nipples]

I believe physicists should be allowed to toy with the very fabric that makes up Heaven and Hell without being troubled by the inconsequential trivialities of societal normalcy.

Karma.

 

[Krynn72]

Depends on whose morality is being used.

 

[KoreBolteR]

I think scientists should be let loose and do anything they want.. if it means saving more human lives. as long as it doesnt cause the world to implode or something....

 

[99.vikram]

Morality is a convenient illusion. Science is all that matters, because it's the only thing that separates us from every other life form that aspires to eat, breed and die.

It's the only thing that gives our existence any kind of meaning. Scientific pursuit > All.

 

[theotherguy]

What is your viewpoint on morality vs. science? Do you believe scientists should be able to experiment with what they want without being troubled by the burden of the morality of others? Or do you believe there must be a balance of it? Do you believe, as with Rapture, everything would get out of control and turn dystopic if scientists were allowed to freely experiment?

My viewpoint is that you have created a false dichotomy.

Rapture is just a stupid sci-fi extrapolation based on the Frankenstein myth. Dystopian science fiction often exaggerates our fears about science to the point of parody.

Of course scientists must be ethical, and peer review and international standards assure that for the most part, they will be.

 

[theotherguy]

Morality is a convenient illusion. Science is all that matters, because it's the only thing that separates us from every other life form that aspires to eat, breed and die.

It's the only thing that gives our existence any kind of meaning. Scientific pursuit > All.

I disagree entirely. Science is of course important, but do not delude yourself into believing that the scientific pursuit > All.

Science is morally neutral, and it can be used for things that are both good and evil. It is a tool we use.

Science is NOT the pursuit of truth, nor is it guaranteed to produce the truth. Science is the pursuit of what works. It anthropomorphizes nature, and puts it into models that we understand. We use these models to make predictions. If the predictions work, we believe that we have "explained" that part of nature. But we haven't really. All we have done is found a pattern, and assert that it will continue in the future. It doesn't have to continue. Our theories might not even be remotely adequate for explaining phenomena at all times at all points in the universe.

All we know of science is that it tends to work, and that if it doesn't work, it changes and becomes better.

Philosophy, on the other hand, IS the pursuit of truth. Philosophers answer qualitative questions that scientists write off as trivial because they cannot test them. Science is actually a kind of philosophy based on empiricism and materialism, which seeks to answer quantitative questions.Science answers questions like, "How long is this table?" "What temperature will this gas be?" "How did this happen?" Philosophy seeks to answer questions like, "What does it mean to be rational?" "What should I do?" "Is this beautiful?" "Is this good?"

However, since it isn't rooted in testing, but rather in argument and thought, philosophy can become utter nonsense and bullshit. But since science can't answer a question like, "What should I do?" Or even "What should science do?", it too can produce answers that are themselves based on scientists philosophical (and sometimes bullshit) assumptions. In fact, many scientists try to answer value questions by appealing to philosophy without even realizing it, and then use their scientific models to say what you "should" do. Every time a scientist tells you that you should save energy "for the public good", he is endorsing Utilitarianism without defending it, and often without even realizing it.

The fact of the matter is, science is remarkably bad at answering value questions, while philosophy is remarkably bad at answering quantitative questions, and you can't get by in academia without both.

 

[MJ12]

Morality is a convenient illusion. Science is all that matters, because it's the only thing that separates us from every other life form that aspires to eat, breed and die.

It's the only thing that gives our existence any kind of meaning. Scientific pursuit > All.

Oh goodness you must be joking right?

http://remember.org/educate/medexp.html

You're totally on my gerbil list when I become an evil scientist.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/listverse/humanexperiments/dachautests.jpg

 

[Steven]

Science is a false prophecy, but it's not too late to repent your wrong doings my brothers, repent and your path to heaven shall be clear.

 

[99.vikram]

Oh goodness you must be joking right?

http://remember.org/educate/medexp.html

You're totally on my gerbil list when I become an evil scientist.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/listverse/humanexperiments/dachautests.jpg

Obviously there are better ways to conduct research than to torture people.

But if a scientific experiment had to be conducted that threatened to destroy the earth or something, I'd go ahead with it. It's more important to know than to live our happy little lives.

 

[Eejit]

Nazi scientists weren't amoral. They just had really twisted ****ed up morals.

 

[MJ12]

Obviously there are better ways to conduct research than to torture people.

But if a scientific experiment had to be conducted that threatened to destroy the earth or something, I'd go ahead with it. It's more important to know than to live our happy little lives.

Knowing is often not more important than living our little happy lives, in fact billions of species live quite happily and successfully without knowing so many things.

Your original arguement is this-

Morality is a convenient illusion. Science is all that matters,

The pursuit of Science is all that matters in life?
**** that, I'd rather have a beer with my friends, find a job I enjoy and love, find a girl, get married, maybe have a kid, and enjoy retirement when I'm an old fruit.
If you're saying science is more important than everyone having the right to do that, then what a ****ing lame life that is.

because it's the only thing that separates us from every other life form that aspires to eat, breed and die.

That's an incredibly narrow assumption, doesn't separate us from jack shit. Science is a means for us to learn how to eat better, make stronger breeds, and live longer, just like every other organism aspires to do.
In the end, we're all aspiring to eat, breed, and die like everything else, and figuring out how to do it more efficiently with science is just our species' way of adapting and surviving like every other life form.

We're not different for that reason, don't kid yourself.

It's the only thing that gives our existence any kind of meaning. Scientific pursuit > All.

Once again, Science is just our way of adapting. It's not what defines us. Every species happens to have their own tool for survival, ours happens to be our minds.

So essentially what you are saying is, using what we can to have prolonged survival is what gives our existence meaning ? No, no it does not, in the same way the adaptation of an Earthworm to new soil does not give the Earthworm's existence any sort of "meaning", only a new way to survive, a prolonged existence.

 

[Pesmerga]

I agree with vikram- human kind is exhaustible, but the acquisition of knowledge and its application toward protecting the Imperium is priority. May the Emperor's will guide us to annihilating his enemies.

 

[Eejit]

Science is a means for us to learn how to eat better, make stronger breeds, and live longer, just like every other organism aspires to do.

That's all, huh?

 

[MJ12]

That's all science is for in the end, survival. Any other reason is for mere curiosity.

But in terms of pragmatism, Science=better living for continual survival. Just like every other organism.


Humanity is exhaustible? Tell me, what good is knowledge if theres no one to use it.
With that sort of reasoning I wouldn't define humanity unique from any other species at all. In fact, that ideal makes us much like ants.
We're exhaustible for the hive. Don't kid yourself by saying humanity is unique for it's development in science. If were exhaustible in this respect, were no more unique than insects.

You think way to highly of humanity's accomplishments.

 

[Pesmerga]

Humanity is exhaustible? Tell me, what good is knowledge if theres no one to use it.

Tell me- what good is knowledge if it can't be used to exterminate the heretic?

Curiosity is HERESY. Improving the standard of life is HERESY. Mankind is subordinate to the Emperor and his Primarchs- if it cannot be used to conquer his enemies, it is HERESY.

 

[MJ12]

I'll put this simply.

Science Ultimately= Survival

Survival does not make humanity unique.

 

[Pesmerga]

Science has defined every aspect of every human on this Earth. Culture, religion, politics, economics, warfare, exploration, energy, comfort, medicine, shelter, food and water. All influenced by scientific pursuits.

 

[99.vikram]

I'll put this simply.

Science Ultimately= Survival

Survival does not make humanity unique.

Then what a pathetic existence this is. If the most we can aspire to are frat parties and girlfriends, we might as well shoot ourselves.

Albert Einstein, Richard Feynman, Max Planck and Stephen Hawking didn't spend their lives to build you a better toaster. They recognised that there's a more noble goal out there. Curiosity makes humanity unique. You better believe it.

 

[Pesmerga]

I don't think it's really necessary to define ourselves as unique- it serves no purpose other than to boost our own egos.

All species on this Earth are unique from one another- every individual is unique. Humanity just has a smarter brain, effective at setting and achieving distant goals.

 

[99.vikram]

I don't think it's really necessary to define ourselves as unique- it serves no purpose other than to boost our own egos.

I think it is necessary to acknowledge that we are different from every other species out there.

We have a gift - we can see the universe in a way that dolphins and elephants cannot. We are capable of understanding the majesty of the cosmos/creation/GUT (whatever you want to call it). We shouldn't squander this gift by giving in to our animal instincts.

I'd rather die the day after I understand the Theory of Everything, than live a full but mundane life.

 

[theotherguy]

I think it is necessary to acknowledge that we are different from every other species out there.

We have a gift - we can see the universe in a way that dolphins and elephants cannot. We are capable of understanding the majesty of the cosmos/creation/GUT (whatever you want to call it). We shouldn't squander this gift by giving in to our animal instincts.

I'd rather die the day after I understand the Theory of Everything, than live a full but mundane life.

Absolutely. It is better to be Socrates dissatisfied than a pig satisfied.

However, I again think you are placing far too much credit on science. When we do science, we do not find truth. We find metaphor.

 

[Pesmerga]

Zombieturtle, you are forgetting to take into account the God King Emperor of Mankind. Compared to his will, our trivial emotions are nothing. We owe our very souls to his protection from our enemies and from the Warp.

 

[Pesmerga]

 

[Dinkleberry]

I think it is necessary to acknowledge that we are different from every other species out there.

We have a gift - we can see the universe in a way that dolphins and elephants cannot. We are capable of understanding the majesty of the cosmos/creation/GUT (whatever you want to call it). We shouldn't squander this gift by giving in to our animal instincts.

I'd rather die the day after I understand the Theory of Everything, than live a full but mundane life.

Getting a girlfriend and questing for knowledge don't have to be mutually exclusive endeavours.

 

[Eejit]

That's all science is for in the end, survival. Any other reason is for mere curiosity.

But in terms of pragmatism, Science=better living for continual survival. Just like every other organism.

Why view it in terms of pragmatism? If you view ANYTHING in simply pragmatic terms you'll get to survival in the end - but that is misleading. You seen to be completely dismissing curiosity and learning just to try and make a (flawed) point.

Science is about more than survival. Unless of course you view it in terms of 'pragmatism' i.e. survival. Funny that.

 

[guitr_freek]

I appreciate everyone taking time to discuss this. The idea of scientific experimentation going out of control and turning society to a dystopia is a really interesting one to discuss (or at least for me). I realize that some say it's a ridiculous idea, but I honestly think it's not. People have gotten out of control before and they can do it all over again. Maybe the reason I love this topic so much is because I love the games involving it (i.e. Bioshock and Half-Life 2).

 

[jverne]

i assume you are arguing about what is the purpose of life...at least indirectly.

my stance is...there is no purpose in life, but we make one up because we're to scared to kill ourselves.

sure you can explore space, **** cheap college sluts all night long, drink beer till you can't even stand up, discover a new theory...in the end it all doesn't make any sense, but it's an entertaining way to fill up the time we have left to live.

if there's one moral we should all abide to is that we should make our lives least painful as possible. that's where science comes in handy.

seriously guys...you're way to concerned about some higher goal in life...you're acting just like religious retards. quit it, life doesn't make sense! find whatever interests you pursue it and try to cause the least possible pain to yourself and others. plain and simple.

 

[MJ12]

seriously guys...you're way to concerned about some higher goal in life...you're acting just like religious retards. quit it, life doesn't make sense! find whatever interests you pursue it and try to cause the least possible pain to yourself and others. plain and simple.

^Wurd.

 

[Eejit]

The idea of scientific experimentation going out of control and turning society to a dystopia is a really interesting one to discuss (or at least for me). I realize that some say it's a ridiculous idea, but I honestly think it's not. People have gotten out of control before and they can do it all over again.

Really? When's the last time science turned a society into a dystopia?

 

[99.vikram]

seriously guys...you're way to concerned about some higher goal in life...you're acting just like religious retards. quit it, life doesn't make sense! find whatever interests you pursue it and try to cause the least possible pain to yourself and others. plain and simple.

You're right. But f*cking college sluts and earning money are self-serving pursuits, while scientific knowledge benefits the entire race.

Therefore logically it's the "better" cause to work for.

 

[jverne]

You're right. But f*cking college sluts and earning money are self-serving pursuits, while scientific knowledge benefits the entire race.

Therefore logically it's the "better" cause to work for.

well maybe...but where does it say the human race deserves this privilege? there would still be life without science, sure people would live in caves, but hey what you don't know doesn't bother you. once death was considered something normal and usual, but today we fear it.

or are you aspiring to have a monument set up in your name, showing how many people you benefited?...that's still quite a selfish motive.

face it...there is no "absolute" way, but it all comes down to an individual and what makes him happy.


occasionally i also look down upon certain people (when i can't control my irrational side)...but that's mostly (in my POV) because they are self-unaware, brainwashed tools.


it's a complex world we live in, i can't say that i'm right, but i know that you are not.