More health stuff

can't we wait like a year to roll this out, $900 ****ing billion dollars is a lot to pay for during a struggling economy. I swear our gov't is trying to tank our only means of success.
 
Huh? Our military budget probably wont be affected at all.
 
Congressional budget experts predicted the controversial government insurance option would probably cost consumers somewhat more than private coverage.

-___-
 
It's an opt-in policy, as part of the new health exchanges - only a small percentage of the US population will have access to it, and no-one is forced to choose it.

This is the most important piece of legislation America has seen since Medicare/aid, you guys over there should be psyched.
 
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_healt...Ec2VjA3luX3RvcF9zdG9yeQRzbGsDaG91c2VkZW1zdW52

So they continue their battle, if it passes shall we see who was right and who was wrong?

More like who was left and who was wrong. We're so far behind European standards of healthcare that it's not even remotely amusing or jokeworthy, mostly just pathetic and sad. Let's get it done already. I couldn't give half a shit if the impersonal YOU has healthcare, I care if someone with cancer has the option to live or not given the fact we have the technology. Money is not a good way to judge the "worth" of a human life. If some fat rich jackass whose living has been made off of stepping on the backs and throats of all the poor bastards underneath him and generally manipulating the social fabric for his own benefit deserves to live because he has the money to pay for treatment for whatever disease, the impoverished single mother who makes 15k a year, has never left the Chicago projects since she was born and blows dick to make up the difference so her kids can eat sure as hell deserves it too...
 
So you're saying this is a satisfactory bill for the job?
 
More like who was left and who was wrong. We're so far behind European standards of healthcare that it's not even remotely amusing or jokeworthy, mostly just pathetic and sad. Let's get it done already. I couldn't give half a shit if the impersonal YOU has healthcare, I care if someone with cancer has the option to live or not given the fact we have the technology. Money is not a good way to judge the "worth" of a human life. If some fat rich jackass whose living has been made off of stepping on the backs and throats of all the poor bastards underneath him and generally manipulating the social fabric for his own benefit deserves to live because he has the money to pay for treatment for whatever disease, the impoverished single mother who makes 15k a year, has never left the Chicago projects since she was born and blows dick to make up the difference so her kids can eat sure as hell deserves it too...

You know, this post caught my attention. It's not like every person you so conveniently dichotomized into two groups fits that stereotype. There are plenty of upper class people (my father included) who worked their asses off to be where they are, and still continue to put in 7AM-6PM days, and then go home and work some more. The more money the make, the more they're penalized for it. This is true of everyone, but for some reason those people are being lumped into the same boat as those who are so rich that they couldn't care one way or the other and haven't worked a day in years. Not every upper class person fits the stereotype of the rich robber baron sitting in a high-backed chair smoking a cigar while plotting how to subjugate the poor. You sound like you've been reading a bit too much of the Communist Manifesto.

On the other hand, not every lower class person is valiantly struggling to feed four mouths and working three jobs to make ends meet. There are plenty of people, believe me, who are perfectly content to get a government check and live off of the labors of others literally for all of their lives. Do those people deserve free health care at the expense of those who actually work for the things that they have?

I'm not saying that the stereotypes you mentioned don't exist; they do. But when you so narrow-mindedly dichotomize the issue, you completely miss the others' perspective.
 
IS THE PROVISION THAT STATES PRIVATE INSURANCE CAN TAKE NO NEW ENROLLMENTS AFTER 1 YEAR STILL IN THIS BILL?

Please somebody answer thsi question I asked it twice in previous threads and no one will answer. I don't have time to read a 1990 page bill written in legaleeze to find the answer!!!

I do not want to lose my coverage by my employer being forced to drop it through increased costs from this or the no new enrollments crippling the insurance companies.
 
So you're saying this is a satisfactory bill for the job?
I am relatively sure it isn't, but it's a step on the right track at least.
You know, this post caught my attention. It's not like every person you so conveniently dichotomized into two groups fits that stereotype. There are plenty of upper class people (my father included) who worked their asses off to be where they are, and still continue to put in 7AM-6PM days, and then go home and work some more. The more money the make, the more they're penalized for it. This is true of everyone, but for some reason those people are being lumped into the same boat as those who are so rich that they couldn't care one way or the other and haven't worked a day in years. Not every upper class person fits the stereotype of the rich robber baron sitting in a high-backed chair smoking a cigar while plotting how to subjugate the poor. You sound like you've been reading a bit too much of the Communist Manifesto.

On the other hand, not every lower class person is valiantly struggling to feed four mouths and working three jobs to make ends meet. There are plenty of people, believe me, who are perfectly content to get a government check and live off of the labors of others literally for all of their lives. Do those people deserve free health care at the expense of those who actually work for the things that they have?

I'm not saying that the stereotypes you mentioned don't exist; they do. But when you so narrow-mindedly dichotomize the issue, you completely miss the others' perspective.
Of course. I wasn't implying that the situation I came up with is the norm or anything remotely close to the general image of the thing - I was just illustrating my point. There are plenty of wealthy people who have worked hard and patiently for their entire lives who are entirely responsible for securing their own financial safety net, and they deserve the satisfaction they get from that entirely. There are many impoverished people who stay that way and live off of unemployment and charity and the like, and I don't think that's fair either. BUT, I do feel that the social cost of carrying people who are going to slack is worth the price we have to pay, if it means that the hard-working, honest people who can't afford healthcare but surely deserve it have a chance to get it.

Poverty in general is a symptom of society not being able to fully meet the needs of all of its citizens. Yes, you have some hand in your own situation. You can be born with nothing and die a billionaire. But that doesn't mean it's easy or even remotely plausible for a lot of people. You're born in the projects, you never get much of a chance for a decent education due to social and cultural pressures and lack of opportunity, and thus you never can really tell what you're missing or know how to break out of the system. Until we can fix that problem I think we have a social responsibility to help the people who DO deserve it, even if it means people who don't will also get handouts. It already happens that way.

Don't get me wrong, I don't particularly like socialism, but in this situation a socialist sort of approach is necessary I think. We aren't libertarian, we aren't remotely anti-socialist as a society or political system no matter what the Republican party would like you to believe. We already have a massive social government-run infrastructure for practically everything, adding healthcare to it is a natural progression.

Also, Europe has not degenerated into a society of good-for-nothing lazy government check collecting unemployed freeloaders, so I think we'll be alright.

I lol'd at your implication I'm a communist though, that's a good one.
 
I don't have time to read a 1990 page bill written in legaleeze to find the answer!!!

I do not want to lose my coverage by my employer being forced to drop it through increased costs from this or the no new enrollments crippling the insurance companies.
I'm pretty sure the President addressed this in his address.

It's only a page or two, or you can probably get the audio or video.
 
@Ennui

I wasn't implying that you were a communist, I was implying that your post about the two ends of the spectrum sounded a bit communist. :)
 
Yeah, because communists are the only sort of people who exaggerate and radicalize examples to make their points. You sound a bit like a rabid conservative for jumping to that designation when you detect argumentative strategies you dislike.
 
IS THE PROVISION THAT STATES PRIVATE INSURANCE CAN TAKE NO NEW ENROLLMENTS AFTER 1 YEAR STILL IN THIS BILL?

Please somebody answer thsi question I asked it twice in previous threads and no one will answer. I don't have time to read a 1990 page bill written in legaleeze to find the answer!!!

I do not want to lose my coverage by my employer being forced to drop it through increased costs from this or the no new enrollments crippling the insurance companies.

the obvious solution is to do nothing at all:


In case you wondered about what we in the US pay for health care compared with those unfree unfortunates who suffer under various forms of socialized medicine, here are some graphs showing the advantages of what Republicans here tell us is â??the best health care system in the world.â?

The graphs are from the International Federation of Health Plans. Iâ??ve selected only four â?? to show the relative costs of


You can download all the charts here, but be warned: it gets boring. Weâ??re number one in every chart, at least in this one category of how much we shell out.

Since we have the best health care in the world, this must mean that you get what you pay for. Our Lipitor must be four to ten times a good as the Lipitor that Canadians take.

http://montclairsoci.blogspot.com/2009/11/top-of-charts.html

best healthcare my arse
 
The bottom line is that this isn't a healthcare OPTION. This will become healthcare, PERIOD. The insurance companies aren't sustainable if they can take no new enrollments after this goes into effect.
 
It sounds a bit like this would give incentive to small businesses to NOT hire...and in this economy...
 
For the past 10 years, the factories in my area (pretty much the only decent paying jobs available without a college education), higher people only as temps. As a temp you receive no health care coverage.

After a period, they are expected to hire you on full time, yet they have found loop-holes. For example, to rotate the temps, by laying them off in sequence, and calling on them later to come back.

I went through this for about 10 years, constantly putting in applications for full or part time work like the rest of the temps. 1 in 100 or 200 were ever hired. None ever received health coverage or any other benefits that full-time employees receive. For example, we got 1 day of paid vacation for Christmas day, while the full time employees got more than a week. Either way, we didn't get work, since they shut down for the holidays. So, 10 days off no pay during Christmas. Thanks. :rolleyes:

I'm so glad I don't have to go through this any more. I was lucky and got hired by my brother.
 
The bottom line is that this isn't a healthcare OPTION. This will become healthcare, PERIOD. The insurance companies aren't sustainable if they can take no new enrollments after this goes into effect.

I don't understand. Both the senate and house bills keep the private industry largely intact, sans various cost-control measures and (possibly) an excise tax; the bill focuses on the individual mandate, cost control and exchanges for people without employer insurance. How can stopping insurers enrolling be a part of this package?
 
The bottom line is that this isn't a healthcare OPTION. This will become healthcare, PERIOD. The insurance companies aren't sustainable if they can take no new enrollments after this goes into effect.

no, the bottom line is that people will stupidly cling on to a partisan viewpoint regardless if it makes any sense whatsoever. you people have your ideological rhetoric so far up your collective asses that the opposition could give you the best possible plan on this earth on a silver platter and you'd STILL reject it for some obscure and completely retarded reason. really you people deserve the shitty stick you're given. too bad the sane amongst you has to suffer because of other people's stupidity
 
no, the bottom line is that people will stupidly cling on to a partisan viewpoint regardless if it makes any sense whatsoever. you people have your ideological rhetoric so far up your collective asses that the opposition could give you the best possible plan on this earth on a silver platter and you'd STILL reject it for some obscure and completely retarded reason. really you people deserve the shitty stick you're given. too bad the sane amongst you has to suffer because of other people's stupidity

****sake Stern. Troll harder.

.. I'm not saying you're not right. I'm saying you're not helping.
 
But all we end up with is a room full of douches!
 
...eat....pizza?
It would be in your interest to help us because then the economy as a whole can get a boost.
 
I doubt americans getting proper healthcare will help the global economy


also, "when in rome ..do as the romans do"

it's much less clever when you have to explain what it means
 
For the past 10 years, the factories in my area (pretty much the only decent paying jobs available without a college education), higher people only as temps. As a temp you receive no health care coverage.

After a period, they are expected to hire you on full time, yet they have found loop-holes. For example, to rotate the temps, by laying them off in sequence, and calling on them later to come back.

I went through this for about 10 years, constantly putting in applications for full or part time work like the rest of the temps. 1 in 100 or 200 were ever hired. None ever received health coverage or any other benefits that full-time employees receive. For example, we got 1 day of paid vacation for Christmas day, while the full time employees got more than a week. Either way, we didn't get work, since they shut down for the holidays. So, 10 days off no pay during Christmas. Thanks. :rolleyes:

I'm so glad I don't have to go through this any more. I was lucky and got hired by my brother.

Why would you do temp work for 10 years? That's all on you man, serious. The economy and job market in the past TEN years was not ALWAYS bad especially during the boom times.

It's called temp work because it's TEMPORARY. 10 years is considered a permanent position by most people and if you chose to work for the temp agency that long it's your choice. Remember, as a temp you work for the agency so it's them who should pay you benefits.

If you hire a landscaping company to do your yard should you be held accountable by the workers to provide them with benefits? The factories are paying the agency, not you.



no, the bottom line is that people will stupidly cling on to a partisan viewpoint regardless if it makes any sense whatsoever. you people have your ideological rhetoric so far up your collective asses that the opposition could give you the best possible plan on this earth on a silver platter and you'd STILL reject it for some obscure and completely retarded reason. really you people deserve the shitty stick you're given. too bad the sane amongst you has to suffer because of other people's stupidity

This isn't about idealogy or "you people" seperatist thinking. I'm asking because I have private health coverage through my employer, and I could potentially be heavily negatively affected by this. You aren't even an American and this won't change your coverage, but it will me. I will curse all of you who support it if this passes and has an affect causing me to lose my health coverage.

Stop trying to engage me as "RED VS BLUE" thinking and respond to the substance of what I'm saying. I'm asking because this affects ME in REAL LIFE.
 
Somebody please tell Stern to quit trolling. He does this in almost every thread he posts in. The reason nobody calls him out on his often-offensive posts is because many people here happen to agree with his views, if not the delivery.
 
Why would you do temp work for 10 years? That's all on you man, serious. The economy and job market in the past TEN years was not ALWAYS bad especially during the boom times.
Oh, really? Because 10 years ago, I worked as a temp at a factory that manufactured parts for GM and Ford. September 11 and the war that followed caused the factory to close down.

The only good paying jobs around here only hire through temp agencies.

It's called temp work because it's TEMPORARY. 10 years is considered a permanent position by most people and if you chose to work for the temp agency that long it's your choice.
Right. I was an employee of the temp agency. This means instability, no guarantees, and very little benefits.I might work at one factory for a month, and if I'm lucky and do well, I get another assignment at another factory that needs help during the holidays or to handle increased business. A health care plan was offered, but it comes at a high cost. With no guarantee that you will be working next week, it doesn't pay off.

The temp agency has loop-holes as well. They don't keep you on, they don't need to give you benefits. The amount of time I spent laid off nearly equaled the time I spent working. They managed to keep me at one factory for 2 years without giving me benefits by taking advantage of the loop-holes in the system.

Again, I believe I said already, it's either the factories (through a temp agency) or Retail/restaurant work. There aren't any other options in my area, unless the factory decides to hire you on after a few months as a temp.

Obviously, with thousands working through the temp agency here, competition for the few job openings at factories is incredibly fierce.
 
Oh, really? Because 10 years ago, I worked as a temp at a factory that manufactured parts for GM and Ford. September 11 and the war that followed caused the factory to close down.

The only good paying jobs around here only hire through temp agencies.
Then why don't you work FOR the temp agency? (I'm being sarcastic. Obviously they have employees and there has to be other employment. There are utilities, infrastructure jobs, etc etc) I have a hard time believing the "only" employers use ONLY temp agencies for staffing.

What is your zip code? I'll find you some job examples.

Right. I was an employee of the temp agency. This means instability, no guarantees, and very little benefits.I might work at one factory for a month, and if I'm lucky and do well, I get another assignment at another factory that needs help during the holidays or to handle increased business. A health care plan was offered, but it comes at a high cost. With no guarantee that you will be working next week, it doesn't pay off.
It doesn't make sense for a temp agency to offer a lot of benefits because the employees are temporary. The whole idea behind working temp isn't to stick with the agency for years. I worked for temp agencies as well and left the ones with no opportunity. I also left a region with poor job outlook because of this (and even there, there was work to be had if you were willing but just nothing I wanted or was willing to do)

The temp agency has loop-holes as well. They don't keep you on, they don't need to give you benefits. The amount of time I spent laid off nearly equaled the time I spent working. They managed to keep me at one factory for 2 years without giving me benefits by taking advantage of the loop-holes in the system.
It's not loop-holes, it's designed that way because they're not in the business of having permanent employees. A temp agency is designed to have a rotating staff that some it places into permanent positions, others who work there until moving elsewhere. I don't know of many people who would ever stick with an agency (or agencies) for upwards of 10 years.

Again, I believe I said already, it's either the factories (through a temp agency) or Retail/restaurant work. There aren't any other options in my area, unless the factory decides to hire you on after a few months as a temp.

Obviously, with thousands working through the temp agency here, competition for the few job openings at factories is incredibly fierce.

Like I said earlier where are you at? At least what region if you're not willing to drop a zip code or city name. And if it IS 100% completely true that bad (NO other work besides temp agencies or factory) then you should consider moving for a better life.
 
I have a hard time believing the "only" employers use ONLY temp agencies for staffing.
They have employees that have been there for years, but it's true, 50% of the staff is temps. That way they don't have to worry about any benefits. They spend a half hour or so training you, then you are just a replaceable part to them.


There was this thing my supervisor said to me once, towards the end of my time at the temp agency:

Me to my Supervisor: "If I'm your best temp that you know you can rely on, then why won't you guys hire me on? I've been here almost 2 years and I can work every position here. That's a lot of versatility, something that none of your current employees can claim."

His reply: "The temp agency doesn't really like it when we take their best temps. They kind of get mad at us."

How naive of me, when starting new assignments, when they tell me my temporary position will last 3 months, then they will be required to make a decision to hire me on or release me.


I don't work there anymore - I've got a real job now, but I feel for the people that do work at temp agencies.

Also important to note, I was injured while working there, and the temp agency had to pay for my medical care and treatment. After that, my temp agency never gave me work again. "I'm sorry, we don't have anything available at the moment, please call again in a few weeks." x 10
 
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