more reflection nitpicking

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egon

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http://www.ecn.net.au/~udha/images/source/h-l2/d1_eli_010005.jpg

in this image, the chimneys (top rightish) dont get a reflection, someone on the forum i got this rom says the skybox isnt reflected. does that mean nothing from the sky has a reflection, you cant havea cool scene with the sunset reflecting off the water?? thats a bit sad, im not blaming valve i guess its too hard / too taxing on a comp to do.

I guess you cant have something like this?
http://alloilpaint.com/hawaii/sunset/s14.jpg
 
yo in real life those chimmneys wouldnt reflect, they are too far from the water, they seem to be on top of that first hill that does have a reflection but just by looking at that pic for 2 secs i saw they are much farther back then that mountain, you cant even see their base, so of course they dont have a reflection. Its not that valve forgot or anything, reflections were not each created, the reflections are real, if the walls moved the reflection would too, just like out of game sprays for cs:s, they reflect perfectly in water, the water reflections are not scripted is what im trying to say, if those chimmneys were supposed to reflect (which they are not) then they would.
 
man simple optics. if you put a mirror on the floor, and look into it, itll reflect exactly anything thats above it. if you can see the chimneys, they will get reflected, if anything is in your line of sight, its in your line of sight in the reflection.
 
I dont think it reflects the 3d skybox part. Because that physically is outside the map in a corner brush. Aka its an illusion and not really is there.
 
What is your ansiotropic filtering set to? The higher you raise it, the further away you will be able to see and interact with objects, without needing them fade into view. I imagine it's similar with the sky, considering how "far away" it is.
 
theyre not my screenies, but I dont think that makes a difference.
what it seems like is the sky texture is reflected, but the 3d part of the skybox is not. that seems kinda sad
 
To suggest that everything you can see with your eye is evrything that is reflected isnt true. Remember, light isnt some omniscient being with a map to your retinas. If you look carefully at the picture, you see those smokestacks peeking at you from above the hill. However, move down to the same position you see the reflection in the water, then tell me if you can see the smokestacks. For the reflection of those smokestacks to reach you, it needs a clear line of sight down to the water, then back up to your eyes.
 
Skybox != 3D Skybox

Just thought I would add that...
 
To suggest that everything you can see with your eye is evrything that is reflected isnt true. Remember, light isnt some omniscient being with a map to your retinas. If you look carefully at the picture, you see those smokestacks peeking at you from above the hill. However, move down to the same position you see the reflection in the water, then tell me if you can see the smokestacks. For the reflection of those smokestacks to reach you, it needs a clear line of sight down to the water, then back up to your eyes.
Click to expand...

see these 2 images, atleast some of these chimneys has to have a reflection.
this sucks once you begin to notice it, you find the problem everywhere.

so I guess the skybox is reflected, the 3d skybox is not?
original images here.
http://www.sudhian.com/showdocs.cfm?aid=626&pid=2368
 

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all of you need to die...really, just die (except for the non-retards here who didnt notice it, and now that they do, dont care) I think the reflections in this game surpass every game every, no doubt, it revolutionized reflections and it didnt ****ing need to, and yet, you still complain? Its not a bug, its the LIMIT, there are ****ing limits you know, you see like 30 nascar games on the same system, why didnt they put the graphics of nascar 2005 into 2003? Limits, something had to be done to make the game (going back to HL2) playable for people who dont have a 4.7ghz P5, 7gigs of ram, and a Radeon X80000000024.322 512mb, and btw Im not saying this because i have a low end system, i have a pretty amazing rig, but still, even with a rig like the average person has, you just cant do these things. I mean, if you were to have absolutely perfect real world 100% perfect reflections, subtract at least 60fps from what you are getting now, then complain about your low fps ok?
 
MilkMan12 said:
yo in real life those chimmneys wouldnt reflect, they are too far from the water, they seem to be on top of that first hill that does have a reflection but just by looking at that pic for 2 secs i saw they are much farther back then that mountain, you cant even see their base, so of course they dont have a reflection. Its not that valve forgot or anything, reflections were not each created, the reflections are real, if the walls moved the reflection would too, just like out of game sprays for cs:s, they reflect perfectly in water, the water reflections are not scripted is what im trying to say, if those chimmneys were supposed to reflect (which they are not) then they would.
Click to expand...

agreed
 
Guys, simple L.O.S reflection rules apply.
But in this instance it does not.
VALVe have a cheap little polygon saver tactic... I'm not sure what it is called but is some kind of instancing.

The real chimny stacks are in the level and they are real (Clearly) but what is unreal about the image is that the smoke stacks aren't where they seem to be.
All they are are low polly small versions of the real things. And then SOURCE engine simply renders them in a place where you would naturally see them, when in fact... they aren't.

If you use noclip on all the levels (Even in CS) you will come across these instances with tall structures and buildings (IE The Citadel)

Try it.
 
I presume by that rant that you change your stance from your previous post and agree they should reflect and dont.
I just asked a question. I had to make all the effort to prove that thats indeed a limitation. I think that sucks. ok maybe its not technologically possible. what sucks for me is that after all that effort to make the best looking water ive ever seen, you realize there's such an obvious problem. that disappoints me.
 
Unfortuanately its not obvious unless your looking for the problem? Magic tricks are always obvious after they tell you how they did it, then you think to yourself OH I COULD HAVE SEEN THAT HA! I know you are wrong in your first post, but the one with the other pillars and light posts is correct, with such beautiful water I dont see how you could care or be dissapointed. I think you need to go outside and watch a lake or ocean for a couple days strait, just to get all your wate reflection obsessions out, so you can finally relax and play this game for the game.
 
It would have been very possible for them to build the chimney stacks in such a way that they would reflect also, in fact, when valve releases the rest of the sdk, you could do it yourself. It will just hog resources. As it is, the chimney stacks, like most very distant objects and terrain, are built in the 3dskybox... they're 1/16 versions of themselves that are built elswhere far off of the actual map, then reflected by the skybox to represent their actual size in the gameworld. Anything built in the skybox can't interact with the gameworld in any way though... that would include reflections off of the water.

Like I said, you could just copy that same exact chimney, rescale it back to it's proper size, and place it within the actual map and it would in fact reflect like it should off of the water... it would just hog resources.... so it's not a limitation of the source engine as much as it is a design decision to save resources.
 
Quite amusing that people actually feel bothered enough by it that they post it on a forum.
 
PvtRyan said:
Quite amusing that people actually feel bothered enough by it that they post it on a forum.
Click to expand...

lol..so so true....its just nitpicking.
 
Absolute nit-picking. I wouldn't have noticed in a thousand years and it would take me another millennium before I care.
 
the chimmneys wouldn't make a reflection ONLY reason for this is that it is not in the map it is out of the map...it is the 3D backgound. and the 3D backgound doesn't make a reflection. only the things in the map make the reflection not the 3D background
 
miked4o7 said:
It would have been very possible for them to build the chimney stacks in such a way that they would reflect also, in fact, when valve releases the rest of the sdk, you could do it yourself. It will just hog resources. As it is, the chimney stacks, like most very distant objects and terrain, are built in the 3dskybox... they're 1/16 versions of themselves that are built elswhere far off of the actual map, then reflected by the skybox to represent their actual size in the gameworld. Anything built in the skybox can't interact with the gameworld in any way though... that would include reflections off of the water.

Like I said, you could just copy that same exact chimney, rescale it back to it's proper size, and place it within the actual map and it would in fact reflect like it should off of the water... it would just hog resources.... so it's not a limitation of the source engine as much as it is a design decision to save resources.
Click to expand...
this way will work for sure but it will also increase mapsize ALOT!

i think there is another way.
if u map all skybox geometrys as entitys, they should be reflected if u turn on "reflect all".
i think source is reflecting the world with normal cube mapping and models (e.g. the pier in the black mesa east shot of the topic starter) with realtime mirroring.
so i think even if they are in the skybox, maping them as models or entitys might work.
but im not sure if 3dskyboxing isnt restricted to normal brushes ... we will see if someone trys it out
 
You should be grateful that you have reflections at all. Us poor people with our older dx8.1 hardware only have transparent water. :(
 
MF-Boltress said:
You should be grateful that you have reflections at all. Us poor people with our older dx8.1 hardware only have transparent water. :(
Click to expand...
at least it has specular reflections and refraction.

if u want full reflective water on your dx8 card: go play farcry.
 
jacen said:
this way will work for sure but it will also increase mapsize ALOT!

i think there is another way.
if u map all skybox geometrys as entitys, they should be reflected if u turn on "reflect all".
i think source is reflecting the world with normal cube mapping and models (e.g. the pier in the black mesa east shot of the topic starter) with realtime mirroring.
so i think even if they are in the skybox, maping them as models or entitys might work.
but im not sure if 3dskyboxing isnt restricted to normal brushes ... we will see if someone trys it out
Click to expand...

I was under the impression that only normal brushes were allowed in 3dskyboxing. I know something is restricted, it might just be the phys ones though. Not sure.
 
Well if you go on chat on CSS - the major reflect bit of water in the corner only reflects in low detail at some angles, and then if you get closer it adds the glass and upper ridge detail
 
hmmm first game to have really really good looking water reflections and people feel the need to nitpick every little detail about them as if something better is currently out there in a game?

I wonder if some of these people would nit-pick about the sprites in games from 15 years ago? "OMG water is NOT THAT colour of blue!"
 
I like how the best looking and most realistic water ever made in a video game is still not good enough for some.
 
it's a game.

if you want a lovely sunset, go sail around teh real sea for a while k
 
its about showing the fanboys that source is indeed good work, but there is no way that its the best engine to ever hit your pc.

most ppl are so blindfolded and biased when it comes to judging whats good/bad about an engine ...
*sigh*
 
Here's something stupid that doesn't make a lot of sense... :cheese:
 
Bobcat said:
Here's something stupid that doesn't make a lot of sense... :cheese:
Click to expand...
its not about this only
look carefully at the black mesa east shot.
on the left side you see some hills/montains
look at the water ... these montains dont get reflected at all.
thats because they are only 3dskybox meshes
 
why cant valve make them reflect or not have them near water :( me dont like it. is the problem also there in far cry?
 
Hey guys...explain THIS! WTF?!?!

d1_canals_080003.jpg



But then again....complaining about this is like bitching about the size of the glove compartment in a Ferarri. :D
 
That's on low settings.

The skybox isnt really reflected. Water surface uses a cube map instead i think.
 
AU StangGT said:
Hey guys...explain THIS! WTF?!?!

d1_canals_080003.jpg



But then again....complaining about this is like bitching about the size of the glove compartment in a Ferarri. :D
Click to expand...
Yeah, it's your settings. ;)
 
what the hell were you people doing when you were playing the game!?

it looks amazing, enjoy it!
 
Dudes, stop telling people not to nitpick. The original and subsequent posters havn't said that this has spoiled their enjoyment of the game at all. They are simply making an observation. If you don't like that then dont post in here :|
 
Actually I dont think he has the game. He's using someone elses screenshots to troll. :frown:
 
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