My two cents (im sorry bout the rant)

[burnzie]

In light of recent events like the kids shoting at cars in the states. i have a bit of steam to blow off.

isnt it funny that americans dont point the finger at the kids, or the even more odvious f**king guns that yanks insist on having 27 of em.

americans can be so thick that they cant see that these presious guns are the ones causing the violence, not some animated pixels on a screen

americans need some gun laws (beter ones) before they can start pointing the finger at anything else. to bad most (exageration) of them are a bunch of inbread hicks that cant see that things need to change.

also, i hate seeing parents that will buy these games for there kids, without paying attention to ratings what have you, then turning around and sueing when they blow some 1st graders head off cause of "violent games" while they sit in there houses with loaded guns sitting unprotected. they only want to make a quick buck out of a tragedy.

I work at a video shop in Australia, i see ignorent parents (i dont mean to be sexist but its usaly women) geting MA and R(not porn) videos and games for there kids. and when i try to tell them that the past half hour picking them has been useless because they arn't sutible i get blasted for voicing my opinion.

in one incident some bitch blasted me because i said Jackass the movie and the two seiries volumes were unsutible for her 10 year old kids.
so i said "alright, whatever" and put em through for her. a hour later she came back and yelled at me for never warning her that they were unsutible. and she wanted free videos for a week because of the inconveniance. So i nicely told her to get f**ked (by which i mean say "sorry, i warned you about them, you didnt want to listen to my opinions") i said she could pick 3 videos from the kids weekly video section. (which i thought was very fair) and she stormed out. the guy next in line laughed and i explained the whole saga to him.

that was one example that some parents for

1. dont know the ratings
and 2. dont want ot listen to the clerks opinion.

this is how the games get to the kids.

anyway back to guns, bowling for colimbine is a great doco on guns in the states. any one interested shoud check it out.

sorry, i got carried away but i feal it must be said.

and if someone has already posted a topic like this than sorry. close this thread.

anyway, i would like you opinions on the matter as i am interested to hear from you guys on this subject.

discuss.

 

[Feath]

The kids who shot up Columbine broke 20 Gun Laws when they obtained their guns. 21 wouldn't have made that much of a difference.

I think Firearm training would be better, you would get to know the power of a gun and how to be safe with it.

I just think the kids are idiots and should be punished. When I was that young I knew what a gun was capable of.

 

[burnzie]

good point,

but sadly, many guns are obtained from the home beacuse of careless parents.

 

[Alanity]

Um, the asshat kids are to blame?

 

[burnzie]

sorry forgot to add a blame the kids choice for the poll.

ps: whats an asshat, if its what i think it is, what idiot would wear one?

 

[Alanity]

The asshat kids would wear one. :Þ

 

[Mackan]

anyone seen the movie "Bowling for Columbine"?
very interresting.. it deals with exacly the stuff youre talking about there burnzie

 

[Feath]

Originally posted by Mackan
anyone seen the movie "Bowling for Columbine"?
very interresting.. it deals with exacly the stuff youre talking about there burnzie

Indeed, it's just a shame that Michael Moore made a lot of it up.

 

[h00dlum]

America = ****ed up laws\****ed up people

 

[EVIL]

human VS human is a endless battle, that will proppably never stop. Its in our nature to KILL. Its a endless vicous circle that we (our generation) will not break.

We call ourselves civilised, but we are far from that.

 

[Steelwind]

Originally posted by h00dlum
America = ****ed up laws\****ed up people

That's a pretty broad and ignorant generalization there. There isn't a single country without imperfections.

 

[Feath]

Originally posted by Steelwind
That's a pretty broad and ignorant generalization there. There isn't a single country without imperfections.

Yeah I know, There are plently of intelligent Americans. And also plenty of ignorant people living elsewhere in the world.

 

[el Chi]

Originally posted by Feath
Indeed, it's just a shame that Michael Moore made a lot of it up.

How so?
Some of it was very good. Charlton Heston, anyone?
Personally I think it's America's gun laws. Guns. Should. Not. Be. Legal.
Simple as that. They create paranoia within people, which makes them dangerously prone to trigger-happy behaviour, etc etc.
Not to want to sound sanctimonious, but I'd like to point out that after the UK's only school-shooting (worth noting, perhaps that it was by a local crazy guy and not a student), handguns were completely banned nation-wide.
Now, pretty much only shotguns and weaker rifles are legal for "sports purposes", however the laws are very strict.
IMHO, the US needs to clamp down on gun ownership (as long as there are Texans, you won't be able to ban guns entirely without a second Civil War) and restrict people's variety. For example, an M16 assault rifle, is NOT for "sporting purposes" nor is it a legitimate tool of defense. A weapon like that is designed for warfare. As a defensive measure, you're talking literal overkill.

 

[StarMonkey]

I thought bowling for columbine was really good, and certainly changed my opinion on people like charlton heston.

 

[switch]

if anyones interested an article with the two boys shooting cars in the states is here:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030828/ap_on_re_us/interstate_shootings_1

the victims families of the shootings are suing Rockstar Games, the creator of the GTA series because the boys blamed their actions on GTA.

Rockstar Games and infogrames are also getting sued by a graffiti artist for using his work in GTA:3 not a very good week for Rockstar games.

-sources http://games.slashdot.org

 

[el Chi]

The second one's kinda legit.
But I can't stand it when people have to scapegoat and go with the media witch-hunting and blame games.
Personally, I think it's the families that're evil - they're in an aggrieved state because a fmaily member has just died or been wounded and so they decide to profit off that!? Disgraceful.
Doesn't stop the boys from being arseholes though.

 

[Morbo]

I played a LOT of violent games, I watched maybe the most violent movies imaginable, I could probably use a gun very well, but the only thought of having a loaded gun in my house make me sick. I have no problem with violence in fiction, in movies, etc. but I am non-violent in real life. I think that using violence is a defeat in itself. I agree that sometimes you don't have any choice, but still, it's in extreme situations. Look at Gandhi. This guy did the most amazing things (like freeing India) without any violence. You know why Indians weren't violent either? Because when there was any violence, Gandhi would stop eating until violence stopped. This guy was so loved by Indians that it worked very well.

And that's something I don't understand, you know. We don't lack positive models to show kids that violence is useless. Jesus, Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr. are good examples. But then there's Bush talking about killing hundreds of human beings and some actually think he's a good guy. Maybe that's the problem. Try to teach kids not to use violence when the leader of the "free" world kills thousands of innocent because one guy *may* attack the country. You know what Gandhi said, "An eye for eye only ends up making the whole world blind. ".

 

[Feath]

Originally posted by StarMonkey
I thought bowling for columbine was really good, and certainly changed my opinion on people like charlton heston.

This is why I really don't like what Michael Moore did.

Charlton Heston is actually a very nice guy. He was the first actor is have an interracial on-screen kiss in a movie. He went on countless protests against Segretation. He did so much for the equal rights moment.

And then Michael Moore reduced him to an evil arrogant prat.

Some points:

* The pro gun rally after Columbine was actually an annual meeting that would've been difficult to cancel. It would have even been illegal to cancel. As it happened, a lot of the stuff was scaled down

* Charlton Heston's speech at the the Annual meeting was HEAVILY edited by Michael Moore. As a result, it's entire tone changed. His original speech was explaining that they were part of the Community and such stuff. His edited speech basically said "I'm an arrogant prat who can go whereever I want". Not what he said at all. http://www.hardylaw.net/Bowlingtranscript.html for a comparision.

* "From my Cold Dead Hands" wasn't actually from the Columbine Meeting, it was from a meeting a year later at Charlotte, North Carolina. If you watch it again you'll notice that Heston's clothes change after he says this.

* The "Pro Gun Rally" at Flint wasn't. It was a political rally that occured 8 months after the shooting incident. Michael Moore deliberately misleads people into thinking that it occured a few weeks afterwards.

And those are only the inaccurances regarding Charlton Heston. Read http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html for a lot more.

 

[Morbo]

Originally posted by StarMonkey
I thought bowling for columbine was really good, and certainly changed my opinion on people like charlton heston.

I don't think Charlton Heston is right, but I don't think this guy is evil. Didn't he fight alongside Martin Luther King Jr.? I don't know what happened to him since that time, maybe it's Alzeimher (sp?) or something else, I don't know. And you know, I bought BFC and really, really like that movie, but I do think that this whole Heston interview was useless and that Heston was an easy prey for the master interviewer that Moore is.

 

[Morbo]

Aaaaw I just hate that kind of bulls***. Many americans seemed to feel personnally attacked by Moore in this film, or that Moore is anti-american. This is so ridiculous. There is a LOT of "experts" who analyzed the movie, found that Moore edited his movie (man THAT'S surprising) and conclude that the movie is a buuunch of lies. Those people obviously never analyzed what Bush said since he's president.

 

[Feath]

Originally posted by Morbo
Aaaaw I just hate that kind of bulls***. Many americans seemed to feel personnally attacked by Moore in this film, or that Moore is anti-american. This is so ridiculous. There is a LOT of "experts" who analyzed the movie, found that Moore edited his movie (man THAT'S surprising) and conclude that the movie is a buuunch of lies. Those people obviously never analyzed what Bush said since he's president.

Who are you referring to? Me or David Hardy?

Did you read the site? It's not that he has Edited the movie, it's the fact that he edited the speech that Heston gave and changed it's tone completely. His methods need improving. He simply lies in other parts of the movie and that's bad. It's meant to be a doctumentry but it just misleads people.

Read Moore's edited speech and the speech Heston originally gave. Both say the same words, but the way Moore has cut out so much, they give different impressions.

 

[Lordblackadder]

I can no longer stand by while reading this nitwittery!:flame:

Mike Moore is a fat idiot!

Heston is a hero and a wonderful human being!:thumbs:

When people shoot others, the people are to blame. When people bludgeon others with basball bats, lead pipes, bar stools, sections of furniture, wooden bed posts, heavy phones, lap top computers, frozen badgers, frozen steaks, small desks, large desks, chains, bricks, general building materials, SnapOn tools, bycicle frames, bycicle handle bars, railroad spokes, railroad links, model cars, model planes, beer bottles, wine bottles, sore throat medicine bottles, coffe tables, coffee pots, coffee mugs, and what not it's the person's fault.

So if you want less violence seek out to limit that which influences people's minds to commit violence. Also seek out and promote that which enlivens conscience. Conscience abhors harm.


In any case, DC is a crime infested pit, so don't extrapolate so much from it, the most gun-crime ridden places in the States are the ones with the toughest gun-control. The most peaceful places on the other hand have the most guns and leastanti-gun laws.

It's all in the head and heart, if not for guns they'd be using rusty screwdrivers, rusty chisels, rusty razors, rusty.........etc.

 

[Morbo]

I think it's pretty obvious that Michael Moore did edit many interviews and speech. Still, I don't think it's that wrong. After all, they did say that. Of course that is not completely honest, but I've seen much worse while watching the news.

Lordblackadder, Moore doesn't blame guns for those shooting. In fact, BFC is all questions and no answers. I think that proves that Moore isn't a liar and that he got humility. He just show things, to make people react and think by themselves. It would've been easy for him to say "Here's the answer" but he didn't, because he doesn't have an answer.

I do think that people bash Moore because they are scared that he's right. I know a lot of americans and many of them would never admit that maybe USA isn't the greatest country of all, or that there is something wrong with it right now. I actually read someone saying "That's not because everyone says you are wrong that you are". Maybe not, but that's a good reason to think about it twice.

 

[Lordblackadder]

Originally posted by Morbo
I think it's pretty obvious that Michael Moore did edit many interviews and speech. Still, I don't think it's that wrong. After all, they did say that. Of course that is not completely honest, but I've seen much worse while watching the news.

Lordblackadder, Moore doesn't blame guns for those shooting. In fact, BFC is all questions and no answers. I think that proves that Moore isn't a liar and that he got humility. He just show things, to make people react and think by themselves. It would've been easy for him to say "Here's the answer" but he didn't, because he doesn't have an answer.

I do think that people bash Moore because they are scared that he's right. I know a lot of americans and many of them would never admit that maybe USA isn't the greatest country of all, or that there is something wrong with it right now. I actually read someone saying "That's not because everyone says you are wrong that you are". Maybe not, but that's a good reason to think about it twice.

I didn't see BFC. But I am familiar with Moore and what he stands for.
Since he's a celebrity that I disagree with, I get off on saying "Moore is a fat idiot!" Try it .... it's catchy.

I also like saying "Impeach Dubya Bush for Lying America into war."

I never said USA is the best. I just explained the reality of firearm ownership in the States.

In any case anyone on this forum who claims that something other than a criminal lack of concsience is at fault here better throw out their FPS games. There is a definite connection to gun violence there.

 

[thenerdguy]

Guns are not to blame. Its people that are to blame. Its not the guns fault that someone pulls the trigger and it fires. Its the person pulling the trigger thats at fault.

I have severial guns and IM not giving the up. Every one I know has a few guns and so far there havnt been any shootings/stabbings/stealing/car jacking/armed assualt in about 10 to 15 years. So People that tell you guns are evil need to be flushed!

 

[Mitoboy]

This expresses my view quite well.


Click the link!

 

[h00dlum]

Originally posted by Steelwind
That's a pretty broad and ignorant generalization there. There isn't a single country without imperfections.

im not saying all americans are stupid..but the vision i got of america looks like that..

 

[SheepFactory]

Games DO have influence over poeple. Im not saying games cause people to go on rampages. And im not saying that everyone who plays violent games have the urg to kill, so dont give me that "well i play games and im not violent" bs. Its just a simple fact that constantly gunning down, beating to death, stabbing, blowing up, and running over human beings in a digital environment WILL bring out violent tendencies in some people.

Even if the parents are there doing what they should, putting content like that in the hands of certaint people will only lead to negative results. Even if there are no guns in the house, or even if guns were outlawed and didnt even exist, some people will still develope violent tendencies. And weather a gun is available or not, a violent person is a danger to others.

 

[EVIL]

Originally posted by thenerdguy
Guns are not to blame. Its people that are to blame. Its not the guns fault that someone pulls the trigger and it fires. Its the person pulling the trigger thats at fault.

I have severial guns and IM not giving the up. Every one I know has a few guns and so far there havnt been any shootings/stabbings/stealing/car jacking/armed assualt in about 10 to 15 years. So People that tell you guns are evil need to be flushed!

THATS THE BIGGEST LOAD OFF BULLSHIT I EVER HEARD.
please.. go wash yourself because your covered with it!

 

[thenerdguy]

I will not go wash. You come on down here to the south and you will see what us rednecks are like. Every Man Woman and Teenager have guns here. If you dont think that guns are good thats to bad but I wont try to change you mind but You will wish you had one and that you know how to use it when someone breaks into your house and kills you.


This is all i am going to say on this subject,
Good day.

 

[Morbo]

The ONLY good reason to own guns in my opinion is for hunting. And there is some things you got to do when you have any gun, like not having them loaded inside your house. And don't go telling me that you NEED a handgun or a machine gun. That's bulls***.

I do agree that guns don't kill, people do. But guns are made to kill easily, and there is something wrong with that. If someone is violent, he will probably use something else, but someone with a knife is still less dangerous than someone with a loaded gun. One can kill someone with a knife, but it's a lot easier with a gun, and guns are MADE to kill.

Kids playing videogames cannot turn violent BECAUSE of video games. Maybe video games can give a kid some ideas on how to express his violence, but not actually make them violent. Except if the kid can't tell what's real and what's not, or what is wrong or right, but in this case, he's a psychopath, and games certainly don't turn someone into a psychopath. In fact, games act more like a way to channel violence for most persons.

 

[burnzie]

i think americans dont like bowling for colimbine cause it just shows how stupid and arrogant americans can be.

sure the actual guns arnt nessasaraly the problem, but they do alow for this sort of thing to happen.

america has a serious gun control problem that needs to be fixed but it wont be with the good 'ol' boys up in congress are a bunch of gun nuts themselves.

im not taking swipes at americans here but you lot can sure be arrogent when it comes to guns.

 

[cyborgguineapig]

George Carlin:

"the Earth is fine the people are ******!"

 

[crabcakes66]

If you kiddies could restrain yourself from calling americans names then i might give you my opinion.

Otherwise ill just say...

Just becuase you saw a movie doesent mean thats real life. Things are not as simple as all of you make them out to be.

 

[el Chi]

Originally posted by Lordblackadder
I am familiar with Moore and what he stands for.
Since he's a celebrity that I disagree with, I get off on saying "Moore is a fat idiot!" Try it .... it's catchy.

I also like saying "Impeach Dubya Bush for Lying America into war."

It's all in the head and heart, if not for guns they'd be using rusty screwdrivers, rusty chisels, rusty razors, rusty.........etc.

What is it about him you dislike so much (besides from the fact that he's fat... He's certainly not an idiot)

And you're 100% right about the second point. But it'll never happen.

You're gonna have to work pretty hard to massacre a highschool with a screwdriver.

 

[oldi1knoby]

Originally posted by h00dlum
America = ****ed up laws\****ed up people

Oh, ain't that cute? Someone's jealous of the most powerful capitalistic country in the world. *pinches your cheek* Oh, he is just so CUTE when he is angry. I could just eat him up!

 

[el Chi]

Actually, hating a country and being jealous of it are two entirely different things. Don't assume that if people slag off the US it's because they're jealous. It's both arrogant and ignorant, and therefore unbecoming of you oldi1.
Also, don't assume that it's a good thing that you're one of the richest countries on the planet. Think about distribution of wealth and then the crippling repercussions that has on most people - and not just US citizens but also those in the 3rd World. Personally I think it's abhorrent and ludicrous.

 

[Alanity]

Originally posted by Feath
Indeed, it's just a shame that Michael Moore made a lot of it up.

I thought that was the whole point of the film...
A showcase of how easily lead people are pretending to be a documentary on gun culture and those mean weapons manufacturers and enthusiasts.
*shakes fist and scowls*

....

 

[Mackan]

Originally posted by Morbo
The ONLY good reason to own guns in my opinion is for hunting. And there is some things you got to do when you have any gun, like not having them loaded inside your house. And don't go telling me that you NEED a handgun or a machine gun. That's bulls***.

I do agree that guns don't kill, people do. But guns are made to kill easily, and there is something wrong with that. If someone is violent, he will probably use something else, but someone with a knife is still less dangerous than someone with a loaded gun. One can kill someone with a knife, but it's a lot easier with a gun, and guns are MADE to kill.

Kids playing videogames cannot turn violent BECAUSE of video games. Maybe video games can give a kid some ideas on how to express his violence, but not actually make them violent. Except if the kid can't tell what's real and what's not, or what is wrong or right, but in this case, he's a psychopath, and games certainly don't turn someone into a psychopath. In fact, games act more like a way to channel violence for most persons.

Couldnt have said it better myself

And I do think most people complaining about "bowling.." are americans
Maybe, instead of going to mayor extent proving he is a lier, you should listen to what hes saying.. or are you perhaps afraid that it infact could be true?

btw that animated short in "bowling.." was one of the funniest things ive seen for a long time

 

[Morbo]

Btw, I have a question for, well anyone. What do you think or what did you think when you heard Bush say "You are either with us or against us."?

Personnally, that's exactly when I saw how dangerous the guy was. Geez, either with us or against us? "If you don't help us kill people, we'll nuke you"? I don't recall any country calling itself democratic actually forcing other countries to go to war. Because that's what it's all about you know. Canada didn't want to go to Iraq, so the US ambassador said that Canada would be "punished"! And look at France, Jacques Chirac isn't a very good guy, but he was doing what his country and 98% of the world wanted: Stopping US before they would have done too much damage. What did France basically did? They stopped US from using UN to do a war, and that's perfectly right. But then Bush and co. "punished" France.

Another thing, Dubya is the first US President in history who didn't make his first official travel to Canada. The first. What's the message to the people of Canada?

Oh and everyone knows or should know that Esso gave a lot of money to Dubya before he was elected for his capaign. And what was one of the first things Dubya did when he became President? Took off US from the Protocol of Kyoto... How funny is that?

Oh and about Iraq, I think I never laughed so much, when I heard Bush say that finally the whole war in Iraq wasn't about WMD... Another good example of BUSHit.

And when Collin Powell presented the "proofs" of the presence of WMD in Iraq, you know what he gave to the medias? It was a 13 years-old school report on weapons in Iraq. It was made in 1990! Every single grammar and spelling mistakes where still there!

Oh and Jessica Lynch, the "Wag the dog" affair. Well, the truth, if you didn't know yet: She was in the hospital, had one of the two nurses of the whole floor just for her. She was wounded, yes, because of the car accident she had. She wasn't tied to her bed, or anything like that. When the US soldiers came, there was not a single Iraqi soldier, they were gone for a long time. So to make some show they pointed their guns at doctors, nurses and patients, attached a couple of patients to their beds, etc. Isn't it amazing?

Anyway, I'm not a liar, I've checked my sources. But if you don't believe me, I suggest you to read the "analogy of the cave" by Plato, that's basically what's happening in some ways.

EDIT: It's the Allegory of the cave, sorry.