My two cents (im sorry bout the rant)

[Lordblackadder]

the reason why people need firearms is primarily for Self Defense against nitwits (ahem.. EVIL ... ahem) who play violent games and aren't able to discern reality from fiction.

Hunting is only a side benefit.

Also this isn't an American vs. World issue, plenty of countries have high firearms ownership rates......

notably Switzerland. One of the world's most peaceful and civilized nations.

As Freud said "a fear of firearms is a sign of sexual immaturity"

 

[Steelwind]

Originally posted by Morbo
Btw, I have a question for, well anyone. What do you think or what did you think when you heard Bush say "You are either with us or against us."?

Personnally, that's exactly when I saw how dangerous the guy was. Geez, either with us or against us? "If you don't help us kill people, we'll nuke you"? I don't recall any country calling itself democratic actually forcing other countries to go to war. Because that's what it's all about you know. Canada didn't want to go to Iraq, so the US ambassador said that Canada would be "punished"! And look at France, Jacques Chirac isn't a very good guy, but he was doing what his country and 98% of the world wanted: Stopping US before they would have done too much damage. What did France basically did? They stopped US from using UN to do a war, and that's perfectly right. But then Bush and co. "punished" France.

Another thing, Dubya is the first US President in history who didn't make his first official travel to Canada. The first. What's the message to the people of Canada?

Oh and everyone knows or should know that Esso gave a lot of money to Dubya before he was elected for his capaign. And what was one of the first things Dubya did when he became President? Took off US from the Protocol of Kyoto... How funny is that?

Oh and about Iraq, I think I never laughed so much, when I heard Bush say that finally the whole war in Iraq wasn't about WMD... Another good example of BUSHit.

And when Collin Powell presented the "proofs" of the presence of WMD in Iraq, you know what he gave to the medias? It was a 13 years-old school report on weapons in Iraq. It was made in 1990! Every single grammar and spelling mistakes where still there!

Oh and Jessica Lynch, the "Wag the dog" affair. Well, the truth, if you didn't know yet: She was in the hospital, had one of the two nurses of the whole floor just for her. She was wounded, yes, because of the car accident she had. She wasn't tied to her bed, or anything like that. When the US soldiers came, there was not a single Iraqi soldier, they were gone for a long time. So to make some show they pointed their guns at doctors, nurses and patients, attached a couple of patients to their beds, etc. Isn't it amazing?

Anyway, I'm not a liar, I've checked my sources. But if you don't believe me, I suggest you to read the "analogy of the cave" by Plato, that's basically what's happening in some ways.

EDIT: It's the Allegory of the cave, sorry.

Show us your sources.

 

[HiroProtaganist]

Amendment II

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

One of the best interviews in BFC was with terry nichols brother when he was asked if citizens should be allowed to have nuclear arms because the constitution does not say what weapons we can and can not have.

Charleton Heston has used "Cold Dead Hands" at every speech he ever gave" so to say that he didn't use that line is assinine.

The idea that every person who dislikes america is jelous of america is just plain stupid. I highly doubt that europeans are really jelous of us. take Germany they tried the whole Patriot Act thing in the 30's-40's and it didn't work out too well for them did it? Now they are at the polar oppisite and have one of the greatest democracy and society's in the world.

and now to the original topic.

Who is to blame, the kids for doing the act. (Republicans and Democrats love to blame the media because the media is the enemy of totalitarianism) and the parent for not taking paying attention to what their kids are doing.
Millions of people played GTA and didn't go out on killing sprees. So why are these kids special? American Baby Boomer parents have completely dropped the ball on parenting. They're so concerned with their own lives they don't have time for their kids. they are too busy trying to be friends with their kids rather than parents. F' these degenerate baby boomers.

*i'm not quite sure how Plato's conclusion fits your argument?

 

[Direwolf]

I do find Steelwind's post extraordinarily suspect.
And for the love of God, you cannot compare the Patriot Act to Hitler's Germany.
And as Lord Black Adder pointed out: This is not an American problem. This is a world problem. Germany has banned violent videogames and those containing Nazi material, while for a short time Greece banned them entirely. This stupidity is not in any way, shape, or form related or relegated to the states, we just hear about it more when it happens here.
And many people don't take offense at BFC because it points out what's wrong with guns. They take offense because of the way it's done. There's so much proof against guns that there shouldn't be a need to tweak the info or make stuff up, especially if you ruin someone's reputation in the process. In addition, Moore has acted like a real jerk since BFC put him on the map, which doesn't really help.
Bottem line: You can't take guns away from Americans, regardless of the evidence one way or another. By their very nature Americans have always been independent, and only allowing law enforcement to carry weapons smacks of over-restrictive government. I don't own a gun, but if I did I would definitly not wanting anyone telling me I had to give it up or go to jail, regardless that I have never done anything wrong with it.

 

[Lordblackadder]

Originally posted by HiroProtaganist
Amendment II

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


Millions of people played GTA and didn't go out on killing sprees. So why are these kids special? American Baby Boomer parents have completely dropped the ball on parenting. They're so concerned with their own lives they don't have time for their kids. they are too busy trying to be friends with their kids rather than parents. F' these degenerate baby boomers.

Baby Boomers Squandered their parent's wealth, failed to produce their own and now are Mortgaging their Children's Future!

Souylent Green with them I say.

By the way the thinking goes that "crew served" weapons like subs and nukes are not covered by Amndment II. Only individual weapons.

Was Hunter Thompson a PhD?

 

[Lordblackadder]

Originally posted by Direwolf
I do find Steelwind's post extraordinarily suspect.
And for the love of God, you cannot compare the Patriot Act to Hitler's Germany.
And as Lord Black Adder pointed out: This is not an American problem. This is a world problem. Germany has banned violent videogames and those containing Nazi material, while for a short time Greece banned them entirely. This stupidity is not in any way, shape, or form related or relegated to the states, we just hear about it more when it happens here.
And many people don't take offense at BFC because it points out what's wrong with guns. They take offense because of the way it's done. There's so much proof against guns that there shouldn't be a need to tweak the info or make stuff up, especially if you ruin someone's reputation in the process. In addition, Moore has acted like a real jerk since BFC put him on the map, which doesn't really help.
Bottem line: You can't take guns away from Americans, regardless of the evidence one way or another. By their very nature Americans have always been independent, and only allowing law enforcement to carry weapons smacks of over-restrictive government. I don't own a gun, but if I did I would definitly not wanting anyone telling me I had to give it up or go to jail, regardless that I have never done anything wrong with it.

Actually in the old England (pre '90's) the "Bobbies" carried only clubs, while citizens could carry a gun with proper permit. Crime back then was waaaay lower than now.

Oh, Patriot Act = Slippery Slope = Always starts innocently = eventual Tyranny. Sorry I don't make the rules, that's just how it works.

 

[Fat Tony!]

i havent a clue wot u guys are on about , american issues that is... It's obviously the guns that do this just ban guns its just stupid what is the purpose of a gun? to kill someone its pathetic saying u need it for "defence" because one man's defence is another man's offence. However i must admit that computer games actually have some affect on people it did on me however i wasnt stupid enough to do it.

 

[el Chi]

Originally posted by Lordblackadder
Actually in the old England (pre '90's) the "Bobbies" carried only clubs, while citizens could carry a gun with proper permit. Crime back then was waaaay lower than now.

Such is the degradation of today's society...
We're just getting more of the media scare-mongering that America's had for so long.
How's about we all sit down, read The Daily Mail and complain about everything.

 

[Lordblackadder]

Originally posted by Fat Tony!
what is the purpose of a gun? to kill someone its pathetic saying u need it for "defence" because one man's defence is another man's offence.

Main Entry: self-de·fense
Pronunciation: "self-di-'fen(t)s
Function: noun
Date: 1651
1 : a plea of justification for the use of force or for homicide
2 : the act of defending oneself, one's property, or a close relative

Main Entry: 1mur·der
Pronunciation: 'm&r-d&r
Function: noun
Etymology: partly from Middle English murther, from Old English morthor; partly from Middle English murdre, from Old French, of Germanic origin; akin to Old English morthor; akin to Old High German mord murder, Latin mort-, mors death, mori to die, mortuus dead, Greek brotos mortal
Date: before 12th century
1 : the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought

An offense is sometimes decessary for defense.

 

[Mackan]

but what are you protecting yourself against?
the evil black man? or what?

theres almost noone in europe that got guns for self protection.. you should try locking the door or something
and if you really feel the need for protection, get a baseball bat or something
or do the burglars in usa got miniguns or something since you have tons of guns at home?

and also, how come canada got more guns than usa, but a fraction of the amount of gun related murders?

guns are hardle the only thing to blame, but i dont think they help solve the problem..

 

[HiroProtaganist]

few civilized country in the world has more than 200 murders a year yet amercia has 11,700 a year. Our crime rates are not that much higher than the rest of the world so (save for murder) why then is out homicide rate so astrinomically high. 11,700 are not being killed in self defence.

yes he received his Doctorate from Columbia i believe.

 

[Lordblackadder]

Originally posted by Mackan
but what are you protecting yourself against?
the evil black man? or what?

theres almost noone in europe that got guns for self protection.. you should try locking the door or something
and if you really feel the need for protection, get a baseball bat or something
or do the burglars in usa got miniguns or something since you have tons of guns at home?

and also, how come canada got more guns than usa, but a fraction of the amount of gun related murders?

guns are hardle the only thing to blame, but i dont think they help solve the problem..

Exactly my point Mack, other countries have guns but no gun crime.
Some countries have no guns (legally) and tons o' crime.

Like I keep saying, in USA places with the most guns have the least crime, places with most crime NY, DC, guns are illegal.

Baseball bat? SO you make my point for me, don't need guns to hurt people, so why bother bannin' them.:dozey:

 

[Lordblackadder]

Originally posted by HiroProtaganist
few civilized country in the world has more than 200 murders a year yet amercia has 11,700 a year. Our crime rates are not that much higher than the rest of the world so (save for murder) why then is out homicide rate so astrinomically high. 11,700 are not being killed in self defence.

yes he received his Doctorate from Columbia i believe.

Not the point, if 12k are already killed a year, imagine how many more will be if we disarm law abiding and take away their ability for Self Def.

Guns aren't the prob, 12k dead aren't the prob. If most of those 12k are criminals shooting eachother, cops shooting criminals and law abiding citizens shooting criminal, then the 12k not a prob.
Whose gonna miss 12k criminals.:bounce:

 

[Mackan]

'couse a bat doesnt blow peoples brains out?

 

[Lordblackadder]

Originally posted by Mackan
'couse a bat doesnt blow peoples brains out?

You seriously don't see my point dopey?:dozey:

 

[el Chi]

Originally posted by Lordblackadder
You seriously don't see my point dopey?:dozey:

Dude's got a point. Far easier to kill someone in the heat of the moment or by accident with a gun than anything else.

 

[Mackan]

yes i do see your point, i was just trying to make a joke

actually i think moore got it right in his documentary.. it all boils down to americas society being built on fear.. both in its history and in how the news choose their storys.. unfortunatly, fear sells

i dont think its possible to name just one factor that is responsible, like some people try to do.. like blaming marilyn manson for the columbine murders is so ignorant and plain stupid

reminds me of that guy (or rather old man) who "found out" that ozzy osbourne had sublimal messages in his songs that made kids go shoot themself.. why on earth would ozzy want his fans to kill themself?? jeez..
oh well, that was just a side-note

 

[HiroProtaganist]

but that the point many are not criminals. 1000-1500 kids kill themselves every year with handguns. so now we are down to 10,700 murders. if 90 percent of those are criminals (which is an extrmely high estimate) then another 1070 ar innocent victoms. Can yuo go to the families of 1070 people and say sorry life sucks but your child,husband,mother,etc.. died so i can own a Minigun for self presevation even tough i have never been the victom of an assault?

 

[el Chi]

Originally posted by Mackan
blaming marilyn manson for the columbine murders is so ignorant and plain stupid

Not to mention convenient.
I agree with you - Moore had a point about fear.

 

[Lordblackadder]

Originally posted by el Chi
Dude's got a point. Far easier to kill someone in the heat of the moment or by accident with a gun than anything else.

He HAD a point but we're not progressing with the discussion, now we're goin on the nologic merrygoround, thinking is no fun! weeee!

maybe if I open a second amendment thread...hmmm...:dork:

No point, heat of moment irrelevent, it doesn't happen. Look at statistics, it doesn't happen.

look let's just drop it, people ain't thinkin'
;( ;(

 

[HiroProtaganist]

fear or F.E.A.R i beleive he was actually referring to the latter. False Evidence Appearing Real. creating the myth of the superpredator black/hispanic male armed to the teeth and hopped up on PCP terrorizing the suburbs.

 

[Lordblackadder]

Originally posted by HiroProtaganist
but that the point many are not criminals. 1000-1500 kids kill themselves every year with handguns. so now we are down to 10,700 murders. if 90 percent of those are criminals (which is an extrmely high estimate) then another 1070 ar innocent victoms. Can yuo go to the families of 1070 people and say sorry life sucks but your child,husband,mother,etc.. died so i can own a Minigun for self presevation even tough i have never been the victom of an assault?

Ahhh... this is good stuff Hiro, ok I'll bite. :E

Kids kill themselves at higher rates in Japan (no guns).

Also many 'kids' are gangers who shoot eachother (and you) for fun.

--Now I see your whole problem here. You are saying that my having a gun somehow causes these people to be killed? Dude check you head, your thinking is waaay off. Does your having a car cause someone to die in an accident? Then perhaps your playing HL2 will cause someone to die because of the GTA wackos. Does your owning a computer cause me to get flabby?

Listen kid, forget about the idea that guns will magically disappear if banned, they won't, crimms will still have'em. But now they'll be sure their potential victims are unarmed. See here kid? Kapish?

How about if YOU go to those 1070 families and say " hey sorry your family member's dead, but I'm a lazy thinker and didn't realize that he might have a chance at defending himself if he had a gun. Oh and I was dumb enough to think that guns will magically disappear from criminals' pockets when 'banned'"

There you have it Hiro, BTW where are you from?

 

[HiroProtaganist]

A. I'm 22 not a kid.
B. I'm not saying guns are solely to blame, nor am i saying outlawing guns will curb violence. I have not said tha oputlwaing guns would be a better idea either. I'm simply saying that people who have been victoms of crimes and people who investigate crimes have come to the conclusion that more often than not guns escalate the violence.
C. Suicide in japan has more to do with a cultural belief structure that Amercia doesn't have.
D. having a gun will not stop a criminal from attacking you. nor will it protect you in the end. I've had this discussion wih my cop friends and their feelings on the subject is the gun makes YOU more likely to die. someone robbing you is not interested in killing you they only are after your cash. but if you provoke them then you die. let's not get all John Wayne and think that we are the fastest draw in the west. if you have a gun pointed at you and you reach for your gun your going to get shot.
E. I bet you can guess i'm from the northeast. Boston to be precise.


btw: had this been an argument of Logic (in the philisophical sense of logic being the rules to debate) you would have just lost by resorting to name calling when your case was week or you allowed you emotions to enter your thinking.

 

[Lordblackadder]

Originally posted by HiroProtaganist
A. I'm 22 not a kid.

E. I bet you can guess i'm from the northeast. Boston to be precise.


btw: had this been an argument of Logic (in the philisophical sense of logic being the rules to debate) you would have just lost by resorting to name calling when your case was week or you allowed you emotions to enter your thinking.

Boston? awesome. I'm from Boston. Cool wow, who woulda thought.

Looogic ain't all about rulz o' d'bait you know. You have to worry about being right too. That's the tough part.

Boston ain't got no guns, so that's why it has no crime. So let's agree to disagree and be done with it.

In any case I'm glad I ran into a fellow Bean Towner, I live in the Fenway.
Tough place to Paak ya Kaaa. :bounce: :afro: :cheers: :cheese:

 

[Direwolf]

I again have to agree with Adder, that the only thing outlawing guns would do is create a huge black market, and is not likely to result in fewer criminals with guns.

 

[HiroProtaganist]

i knew it YOUR WHITEY BULGER!!! hehe. and i concur from henceforth we agree to disagree.