Negotiations with Terrorists?

[Mechagodzilla]

What sinkoman was getting at is that the destruction of property was done with the implication that the destruction would escalate until demands were met.

And, obviously, things did escalate.

The tea party was mild intimidation that quickly grew into an insurgency.

You can't just say "oh they threw stuff so what" because that ignores everything that happened before and afterwards.

 

[sinkoman]

What sinkoman was getting at is that the destruction of property was done with the implication that the destruction would escalate until demands were met.

And, obviously, things did escalate.

The tea party was mild intimidation that quickly grew into an insurgency.

You can't just say "oh they threw stuff so what" because that ignores everything that happened before and afterwards.

Jah.

But technically, (TECHNICALLY), he is right, in that they didn't "directly" threaten anybody.

Add the fact that they were drunk, and well, I can tell you that shit happens when you're drunk...

 

[Llama]

To kill all Israelis? Nice.

Wrong, they want the Isrealis off their land.

 

[kirovman]

Just like West Country farmers.

"Git orf mooiy laaaaand!"

 

[Llama]

Heh, country bumpkins with RPG's

 

[15357]

Heh, country bumpkins with RPG's

:| D: D: D:

 

[Kangy]

Wrong, they want the Isrealis off their land.

I provided a source that said they'd not rest until Israel was destroyed. And Israel is the representation of it's citizens, the Israelis. Therefore they want to kill vast swathes of Israeli people.

 

[Llama]

I provided a source that said they'd not rest until Israel was destroyed. And Israel is the representation of it's citizens, the Israelis. Therefore they want to kill vast swathes of Israeli people.

Good point, I stand corrected

 

[Solaris]

I provided a source that said they'd not rest until Israel was destroyed. And Israel is the representation of it's citizens, the Israelis. Therefore they want to kill vast swathes of Israeli people.

Hezbullah is however made up of people who just want to live free, and free their comrades from Isreali Jails.

Whilst Isreal occupies Lebonese jails, terrorises civillians, detains thousands indefinately without trial, I will support the 'terrorists'.

 

[Bob_Marley]

Negotioating with terrorists is bad. It's bad, because if we do, even once, it sets a precedent. Other terrorist groups will look at the decision and say "Hmm, these guys did *insert act of terrorism here* and got what they wanted, maybe if we *insert act of terrorism here* we'll get what we're after too!!"

I just love it when the American say this. I've got three letters for you: IRA. Not only were they supported by US citizens (and possibly the government, although this has never been confirmed) but the US government not only negosiated with them them selves, they also forced the the British Government to do the same.

Anyway, as for the Isreali/Hezbollah militant wing argument, I my eyes they're both terrorists, and I refuse to side with either.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

I provided a source that said they'd not rest until Israel was destroyed. And Israel is the representation of it's citizens, the Israelis. Therefore they want to kill vast swathes of Israeli people.

Well, no, that's not entirely accurate.

From what I know about Hezbollah, their campaign to "destroy Israel" stems from the (apparently accurate) belief that Israel will not stop doing bad things until their government is dissolved.
It's basically the idea that Israel has been doing stupid bullshit for about a gerjillion years now, and there's no sign of them stopping anytime soon.
I mean, when was the last time Israel didn't commit some kind of war crime?

Israel is not its people, any more than you can indict the entirety of america for Bush's failings (only around half ).
Israel is a country, not a race.

You know all this hubbub about Iran being the next evil crazytown?
The actual population of Iran is largely secular and pro-america as far as mideast countries go.
It's the government that does all the stupid.

 

[Kangy]

Hezbullah is however made up of people who just want to live free, and free their comrades from Isreali Jails.

Whilst Isreal occupies Lebonese jails, terrorises civillians, detains thousands indefinately without trial, I will support the 'terrorists'.

http://www.ict.org.il/Articles/Hiz_letter.htm

Did you actually read it? They call for the unending assault on Israel until it is destroyed.

Well, no, that's not entirely accurate.

From what I know about Hezbollah, their campaign to "destroy Israel" stems from the (apparently accurate) belief that Israel will not stop doing bad things until their government is dissolved.
...
I mean, when was the last time Israel didn't commit some kind of war crime?

Israel is not its people, any more than you can indict the entirety of america for Bush's failings (only around half ).
Israel is a country, not a race.

You know all this hubbub about Iran being the next evil crazytown?
The actual population of Iran is largely secular and pro-america as far as mideast countries go.
It's the government that does all the stupid.

The reasoning behind what they're trying to achieve is irrelevant. Hezbollah wants to drive the Israelis into the sea with a campaign of terror against the people of it. I find that despicable regardless.

And yeah, while not all Israelis vote for the government attacking Lebanon, bloodthirsty Hezbullah fighters can't exactly make a distinction while they drive them straight into the Med, can they? You destroy a nation by annihilating the ability of it to maintain power, and I'm pretty sure the only way Hezbollah will achieve that is by killing a great many Israelis.

As for Iran, if they're so pro-American, perhaps they should show it next election.

 

[Solaris]

Iran don't have free elections.

And I stand by what I said. Hezbullah have a right to defend themselves. Hezbullah are only responding to Isreal, Isreal is the aggressor there.

 

[Flyingdebris]

Sorry but when someone is blowing up your people, cafe's, busses, airplanes, trains, and subways, you don't just negotiate. All negotiating does is let them know that "hey it worked!" First thing you should do is defend yourself accordingly, beat the shit out of them in retaliation, and when they are defeated, THEN you talk.

The best example of this was the Iranian hostage crisis. A bunch of our people get captured by angry iranians and instead of action, Carter tries repeatedly to negotiate and plead and find out why our people were kidnapped. Nothing happened other than carter and america looking weak and impotent, not until reagan was elected and it was aparent that he wasn't going to endlessly negotiate.

More you negotiate with people who will use violence first, the more violence you will see. its that simple. Hard politics aren't nice and friendly. Touchy feely bullshit does not work here.

 

[Solaris]

Sorry but when someone is blowing up your people, cafe's, busses, airplanes, trains, and subways, you don't just negotiate. All negotiating does is let them know that "hey it worked!" First thing you should do is defend yourself accordingly, beat the shit out of them in retaliation, and when they are defeated, THEN you talk.

The best example of this was the Iranian hostage crisis. A bunch of our people get captured by angry iranians and instead of action, Carter tries repeatedly to negotiate and plead and find out why our people were kidnapped. Nothing happened other than carter and america looking weak and impotent, not until reagan was elected and it was aparent that he wasn't going to endlessly negotiate.

More you negotiate with people who will use violence first, the more violence you will see. its that simple. Hard politics aren't nice and friendly. Touchy feely bullshit does not work here.

Sigh.

go reagen :/

 

[CptStern]

The best example of this was the Iranian hostage crisis. A bunch of our people get captured by angry iranians and instead of action, Carter tries repeatedly to negotiate and plead and find out why our people were kidnapped. Nothing happened other than carter and america looking weak and impotent, not until reagan was elected and it was aparent that he wasn't going to endlessly negotiate.

ah yes the sanitized version of the events ..oh and btw Carter did indeed take action but it ended in complete disaster ..here's the real justification nicely condensed to a small soundbite:

The students justified taking the hostages as retaliation for the admission of the Shah into the U.S., and demanded the Shah be returned to Iran for a trial. The new Iranian regime believed the Shah was in the U.S. so that the U.S. could carry out another coup d'etat in Iran. The U.S. claimed he had come there only to seek medical attention; the Shah was suffering from cancer, which led to his death in 1980. Iranian students demanded that the U.S. government apologize for its interference in the internal affairs of Iran and for the overthrow of Prime Minister Mohammad Mossadegh. They also demanded that Iran's assets in the U.S. be released. The assets had been frozen by the U.S. government in response to the hostage taking. Revolutionary teams displayed secret documents taken from the embassy, sometimes painstakingly reconstructed after shredding, to buttress their claim that U.S. intelligence was trying to destabilize the new regime.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_hostage_crisis#Events


before you comment on that read this:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB126/index.htm

and this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ajax

and this:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB28/

and especially this:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB21/index.html

More you negotiate with people who will use violence first, the more violence you will see. its that simple. Hard politics aren't nice and friendly. Touchy feely bullshit does not work here.

since that's the typical US response to threats to it's own interest you can hardly blame them from following suit ...lead by example I always say

 

[Mechagodzilla]

More you negotiate with people who will use violence first, the more violence you will see.

Lol pre-emptive strike.

More Touchy feely bullshit does not work here.

Hence the success of the iraq war in defeating al Qaeda..............................................?

Negotiation =/= compromise.

They do not mean the same thing.

You can negotiate and still defeat the people. That's the entire point.
If negotiation fails, then bring out the guns.
But just giving up on being sensible is the worst tactic, especially based on just one incident.

Inability to negotiate reasonably is what causes terrorism in the first place, you know.

The reasoning behind what they're trying to achieve is irrelevant. Hezbollah wants to drive the Israelis into the sea with a campaign of terror against the people of it. I find that despicable regardless.

Hezbollah really aren't trying to literally or figuratively push the entire population into the sea.
They want to destroy Israel in approximately the same way Bush wanted to destroy the taliban-controlled Afghanistan.
Hezbollah wants to destroy the state, not the people.

And, like in the case of Afghanistan, their methods are not perfect (since no weapon is truly perfect, civilian casulaties are inevitable in any large conflict), but the justification is what matters.
There are suicide bombers, and there are people who target civilians, but they are not who we are talking about here.

They are also not radically islamic. Hezbollah is currently politically structured as a parliament and is not currently attempting to create an islamic state.
Only six countries (Including Israel, out of 190 or so) call Hezbollah a terrorist organization and, other than Israel, they all just so happen to be christian majorities under conservative leadership.

Even the United States, Israel's biggest ally, only calls Hezbollah terrorist due to past action. They have reformed since.

The current attacks against Israel are considered legitimate resistance by a vast majority. Not a genocide by any means.

 

[pvtbones]

Only six countries (Including Israel, out of 190 or so) call Hezbollah a terrorist organization and, other than Israel, they all just so happen to be christian majorities under conservative leadership.

one point of correction Mecha, it was the liberal party of Canada (in 2002 I believe) that listed Hezbollah as a terrorist organization, so the point about conservatives is either a overgeneralization or simple mistake.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

The current, conservative government is the one which is taking a far from neutral stance on the issue and siding with Israel. Traditionally, we were neutral.

Like I said, hezbollah is grouped as terrorist mainly because of past action.
Just one year after 9/11 no-one really wanted to play it safe with terrorism and the US had strong international support. Lots of groups were deemed risky, many of them unecessarily so.

In the current conflict that Kangy is referencing, though, the term just doesn't apply.

I guess the more accurate thing to say is that only the conservative christian countries are still officially treating them like terrorists.

 

[Flyingdebris]

It doesn't matter if they have a valid complaint or not. Its no excuse to kidnap and threaten people that have nothing to do with it.

Jeez its like some of you are hell bent to excuse horrible actions of other people, but damn as soon as we respond in a less that friendly manner, then we are the bad guys.

Oh my someone blows up a bus full of our kids, we should find out what they want because we should care. Oh Noes, we went and acted in a retaliatory manner, we are so evil! I declare double standards.

 

[Solaris]

It doesn't matter if they have a valid complaint or not. Its no excuse to kidnap and threaten people that have nothing to do with it.

I'd say the soldiers Hezbullah captured have everything to do with it

Jeez its like some of you are hell bent to excuse horrible actions of other people, but damn as soon as we respond in a less that friendly manner, then we are the bad guys.

Its becuase you perpetuate the problem.

Oh my someone blows up a bus full of our kids, we should find out what they want because we should care. Oh Noes, we went and acted in a retaliatory manner, we are so evil! I declare double standards.

Who blew up a US school bus recently? No-one. The terrorists of today are mostly just resistance organisations. What they are resisting is usually a bad thing, however different group employ resistance in different manners, some less acceptable than others.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Its no excuse to kidnap and threaten people that have nothing to do with it.

They "kidnapped" people who did have something to do with it: two soldiers.
They're POWs and, whatever their treatment, it's definitely no worse than whatever is happening in guantanamo bay/cia secret black sites/whatever.

Double standards indeedy.

Which "bus full of your kids" did hezbollah blow up, exactly?
And how does petulance bring anyone back or prevent the next explosion?
Does this wartime rage apply to similar domestic police situations?


I can understand punishing terrorists, but going out of your way to be ignorant and brutish as possible to them isn't noble or patriotic.
Don't descend to their level and fuel their cause by living up (down?) to the stereotype.

We're supposed to be the rational team.

 

[63]

Negotiate. Is good, yah.

 

[Flyingdebris]

it was a hypothetical bus full of hypothetical kids. And I really doubt those 2 soldiers are getting treated better than at guantanamo bay...

I'm not saying to be brutish and irrational, but they are a problem that has to be dealt with in a hard manner.

I don't think i perpetuate the problem. Letting people who would blow apart planes full of civvies just to prove a point, have negotiations perpetuates the problem. It puts them on an equal level with those who do not resort to such means, essentially rewarding their behavior.

and seriously solaris, you creep me out. You talk of all this oppression that the USA or israel aparantly does, of all these horrible things that we do, and yet just about everyone you support has an even dirtier track record. From your avatar who i don't doubt for a second has killed ancestors of mine. To your support of militant palestinians who would bomb city buses and internet cafes. Almost all of which were or are way more oppressive than the USA has ever been or will ever be in the near future.

I could easily say you or people like you perpetuate the problem

 

[Solaris]

it was a hypothetical bus full of hypothetical kids. And I really doubt those 2 soldiers are getting treated better than at guantanamo bay...

I'm not saying to be brutish and irrational, but they are a problem that has to be dealt with in a hard manner.

I don't think i perpetuate the problem. Letting people who would blow apart planes full of civvies just to prove a point, have negotiations perpetuates the problem. It puts them on an equal level with those who do not resort to such means, essentially rewarding their behavior.

and seriously solaris, you creep me out. You talk of all this oppression that the USA or israel aparantly does, of all these horrible things that we do, and yet just about everyone you support has an even dirtier track record. From your avatar who i don't doubt for a second has killed ancestors of mine. To your support of militant palestinians who would bomb city buses and internet cafes. Almost all of which were or are way more oppressive than the USA has ever been or will ever be in the near future.

I could easily say you or people like you perpetuate the problem

Oh yes. The USA never bombed 10,000 civillians to death in Iraq did it?

 

[Flyingdebris]

War is nasty horrible business, but we didn't go in with the intention of slaughtering civvies. The people we fight, they don't care if they kill civvies, and its often their primary goal to do so. You can't ignore them because they'll kill more. But when you take the fight to them, civvies will die in the collateral damage.

So unfortunately it becomes a matter of better theirs than ours. But at the very least we at least try to conduct our forces to act in a controlled manner and minimize damage to the civilian population. There's no other way of doing it.

Its impossible to fight a sterilized painless war

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

Agreed. War is never nice, and it doesn't have laws.

 

[Solaris]

War is nasty horrible business,

Agreed.

but we didn't go in with the intention of slaughtering civvies.

Not purposefully, but neither did you go in with the intention to not kill civvies

The people we fight, they don't care if they kill civvies,

Neither does the USA. Have I heard a public apology in the USA for the thousands of civillians it killed in the invasion? A minutes silence? No.

and its often their primary goal to do so. You can't ignore them because they'll kill more. But when you take the fight to them, civvies will die in the collateral damage.

But they won't kill more. In a couple of years time more people will have died as a result of the invasion than Sadam has ever killed.

So unfortunately it becomes a matter of better theirs than ours.

What? How many US civillians had Sadam killed?
Absolutely nowhere near 100, if any.

But at the very least we at least try to conduct our forces to act in a controlled manner and minimize damage to the civilian population. There's no other way of doing it.

Like the Masarce of thoose 28 civillians including babies and children? (re.other thread)

Its impossible to fight a sterilized painless war

Agreed. That is why war should not happen. At least under the circumstances pre-Iraq invasion.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

The people we fight, they don't care if they kill civvies, and its often their primary goal to do so. You can't ignore them because they'll kill more.

Obviously you can ignore them, because hezbollah has not been involved in any civilian attack since 1999.

In fact, they openly denounce all forms of attack on civilains, unless they see those civilians as part of a military force.

Hezbollah doesn't have anything much to do with palestine, but they do support attacking civilians there, because they see the civilians as part of the invading force.
That's the only form of civilian attack they don't openly condemn, and they are not the ones doing the attacking.

Although I don't think the violence against them is justified, the civilians moving in are being used tactically to make any attempt at removing the israelis as difficult as possible. The israeli houses all happen to be built in tactically advatageous positions like atop hills and such. They're basically using their own civilians as human shields.
It's a half-unarmed invasion force.
The occupation of the land has been classified as illegal under international law.

 

[delusional]

should we negotiate with al qaeda?

 

[delusional]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11079548/site/newsweek/

 

[Solaris]

should we negotiate with al qaeda?

Yes.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

The problem with al Qaeda is that they are religious fundamentalists. They are very unlikely to follow any sort of logistical thinking that negotiation requires.

Our only hope with them is to negotiate with the people they are trying to convert and recruit. Get america to look like the better alternative instead of a fundamentalist christian version of the same.

No-one wants to be an ally when there's nationalism and christian brouhaha all shoved in their face.
Religions both faith-based and political are exclusionary, by definition almost.
Logic is the one thing that it is possible for all (reasonably intelligent) people on the world to agree upon.

 

[delusional]

...use word properly...-jverne
the sleep of reason produces monsters...- god
interesting the two most disliked countries in the world are both ruled by a small but vocal group of religous fundementalists... gick
concept artist: zombie master/unannounced project/source world
hahahahahaaaha decoded bitch
ya you can pretty much equate arguing with al qaeda to the religous right. you wont get anywhere

 

[63]

hahahahahaaaha decoded bitch

That was the point :| You read his self pimp, congrats.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

what...?

 

[99.vikram]

Terrorists are just (extremely violent) people without a voice. Negotiation should be an option. And if that doesn't work, blow 'em to kingdom come.