New Abu Ghraib abuse pics surface

CptStern

CptStern

suckmonkey
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"The pictures appear genuine in that some are very similar to the ones upon which convictions have already taken place. There is the now familiar and ghastly crop of violence, threats (dogs again), hooding and sexual humiliation. Indeed the apparent sexual thrill given to the photo-taker/s is one of the most disturbing elements. One picture shows a prisoner baring her breasts, presumably under compulsion.

Some though are even worse than before. This batch shows several dead bodies, one with its heart removed, perhaps after a post-mortem. The alternative is too awful to contemplate."


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4717486.stm
 
Power in the wrong hands leads to these things. Sadly, very few people can take power :(

-Angry Lawyer
 
Hate the government, not the peoples in general, is my biggest bit of advice.
Still, it's a shame that none of them had the courage to disobey the orders to do the abuse.

-Angry Lawyer
 
ya but I think it's because they felt that since they had authorization it must be ok ..plus I'm sure many of them feel torturing the enemy is ok
 
Like I said, problem with the government. Still, even though it doesn't make it any more excusable, you've heard of that experiment where the scientist gives some guy a dial that "electrocutes" someone, and tells them sternly to turn up the wattage. As human beings, we're weak-willed when it comes to people with power.

-Angry Lawyer
 
heh and probably cuz they wanted to see what would happened if they turned up the juice ..but yes I agree, people tend to follow a pack mentality
 
This thread is actually my experiment to see if politics arguments are easier to ward off than resolve. So far, it's working :D

It's a problem with Humanity rather than the American people. Except, possibly, with certain cultures that specifically teach peace over everything else (Buddhism, I'd presume), most cultures would react the same. The world itself has reached a point where we'd rather be told what to do than think for ourselves.

-Angry Lawyer
 
ya but that's cuz it's just you and I ..wait till some kneejerk reactions start rolling in ..which should be in an hour or so (I've noticed they come at around that time ..I think it's because school lets out) ...oh wait today's a holiday in the US


back on topic ..I like to think that the majority of us wouldnt do something that was immoral no matter who was giving the orders ..but we havent been trained to accept orders without question
 
You'd be surprised about what the majority would do when coerced. I'm pretty sure the experiment was repeated in a number of places, and they all had similar results, regardless of what demographic was tested.
We're instinctually sheep.

-Angry Lawyer
 
Mil(i?)gram Prison Experiment, anyone?

Hooray for the human race. :|
 
ah here it is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

even has some of pics too ..still I can understand the theories behind it but there's still part of me that believes that man is intrinsically good and at some point morlity has to come into play ...I guess even in the case of the abu-gharib abuse because there was a whistleblower
 
Man is by no means intrinsically good. Biologically, we're out to seek what's best for ourselves, and instincively we assume by keeping in a master's good favour we avoid beatings/earn rewards.

It's a battle between our concept of morality with our baser survival instincts. Our instincts are a lot stronger than you'd think.

-Angry Lawyer
 
ya I know, my minor was in humanities in university ..but I try to be an optomist when it comes to the state of mankind ...despite constant reminders that the opposite is true(er)
 
I try to be an optimist about the human capacity for good. But I think some religions might have had a point when they said we're steeped in sin and have to make a conscious effort to redeem ourselves.
 
..but yes I agree, people tend to follow a pack mentality
Click to expand...
It's a problem with Humanity rather than the American people. Except, possibly, with certain cultures that specifically teach peace over everything else (Buddhism, I'd presume), most cultures would react the same. The world itself has reached a point where we'd rather be told what to do than think for ourselves.
Click to expand...
Both of you really think that ?
I cant agree at all, people must first be taught obedience and have that lesson reinforced for the rest of their lifetimes. The object of their subjugation must be dehumanised and permission must be expressly given from those in command, then people are more than happy to indulge their base instincts.
 
To an extent, it's why a lot of religious rules exist. Even in the early days of our history, people knew that instinct made every man for himself. So you got churches saying that "Do good acts, and you get rewarded. Commit evil, and you'll be punished eternally".
Good and evil have been about coercing people, since the dawn of civilisation.

-Angry Lawyer
 
Pretty old news (and no, I don't mean the first round of these photos), but disgusting nonetheless. The thing that scares me the most is everything we haven't seen yet...I can only assume it gets worse in the depths of the secret prisons and torture houses. War (power?) brings out the worst in humanity.
 
Sulkdodds said:
I try to be an optimist about the human capacity for good.
Click to expand...

yes that suits me better

Saj said:
The object of their subjugation must be dehumanised and permission must be expressly given from those in command, then people are more than happy to indulge their base instincts.
Click to expand...


kind of what I was saying earlier but it got lost as I was too busy backtracking and being a little too wishy washy ..yes I know, I'm being wishy washy again :)
 
Isn't this surreal? The only thread in Politics that's not dominated by HATEHATEHATE!

-Angry Lawyer
 
Angry Lawyer said:
Isn't this surreal? The only thread in Politics that's not dominated by HATEHATEHATE!

-Angry Lawyer
Click to expand...
That's because its mostly you and Stern...just wait til the others come...:sniper:
 
I'm not suprised about these photos. And it's come at the perfect time, where there's all the rioting over the Mohammed cartoons. I think it's gonna get worse before it gets better.

Also:

Angry Lawyer = diplomatic? contradictions in terms? paradox?

Scalar waves! :shh:
 
Didn't a UN report call for the closure of Guatamano as well recently?

Seriously, The US pretends to campaign for freedom and such, and then does this kind of s**t. Shame on them.
 
I've never seen any of these photos, are they on the internets?
 
Solaris said:
Seriously, The US government pretends to campaign for freedom and such, and then does this kind of s**t. Shame on them.
Click to expand...

Edited for accuracy.

-Angry Lawyer
 
Erestheux said:
I've never seen any of these photos, are they on the internets?
Click to expand...


I think they're still classified ..aclu is asking for them to be released
 
A scene from Arrested Development (paraphrased and misquoted ;))

"Gob was arrested and is being held in a prison in Iraq."
"Oh god!"
"An American prison."
*relieved* "Oh."
"God knows what they're doing to him..."

I think they're still classified ..aclu is asking for them to be released
Click to expand...
Hmm. Well, what about the original one's? Were they ever released? I never saw those, either..
 
kirovman said:
I'm not suprised about these photos. And it's come at the perfect time, where there's all the rioting over the Mohammed cartoons. I think it's gonna get worse before it gets better.
Click to expand...

I don't know about you - but it makes me think that some of these media orginizations have some sort of Agenda. It's perfectly plausible.

As far as the prisoner abuse goes: It's a shame, but it happened and it's time to move on. People have been dealt with, and it's time to stop beating a dead horse and to move on.
 
They all should've been released at the same time. Now with the offenders punished and being old photos, there's not much more for this except shock value.
 
Sulkdodds said:
Tell that to the prison guards. Zing!
Click to expand...

You aren't familiar with figures of speech are you... and that really wasn't funny at all.
 
Damn. It was supposed to be so unfunny it became funny. Oh well, back the the drawing board.
 
mabufo said:
I don't know about you - but it makes me think that some of these media orginizations have some sort of Agenda. It's perfectly plausible.
Click to expand...

the images were in the hands of the DoD and were court ordered to be released but the US refused and launched an appeal ..but they have a legal responsibility to release them but they were leaked before the appeal

mabufo said:
As far as the prisoner abuse goes: It's a shame, but it happened and it's time to move on. People have been dealt with, and it's time to stop beating a dead horse and to move on.
Click to expand...


beating a dead horse? torture is still widespread only it's more clandestine.


RakuraiTenjin said:
They all should've been released at the same time. Now with the offenders punished and being old photos, there's not much more for this except shock value.
Click to expand...


unless they have something to hide ..why werent they released at the same time? they were on the same cd as the original batch
 
Right now this looks like a dirty smeer campaign.
In that case, lets all show fotographs on how arabic ppl including syrians, iranians etc travel to Iraq and blow themselves up at the local police-station killing iraqi young men who were just applying for a job... (insurgents saying if i can blow up 1 american and it costs 20 iraqi's its worth it)
Lets put those faces and dead bodies all over the media...

Lets show ALL the horrors and violents acts performed by the opposing force aswell, not focus on only "our own" incidents and smeer that all over the place with nice gore pictures to increase the "horror"...
I say punish the ones involved but for gods sake respect the dead, and spare them for being used as media propaganda..
Im against the war, but also against any dirty smeer campaign...
Yes, sometimes we need a little shock to wake up, but dragging it on and on is just dirty propaganda imo

Dont get me wrong, im all for exposing criminal acts, so we can hunt down the ppl who did it, but why the pictures? Why the horror? Why so little respect for the dead..

Also, it yet again smells like every bad thing the US or British army does is published all over the world and shoved in the faces of everybody, while killed soldiers and civilians by the opponent, we hardly hear about other than "it happened". Where are the gore pictures? Cmon CNN show us how iraqi civilians are blown up by their own people..

I say show it all or show none at all and just report it..
And since im not looking forward for CNN to turn into Ogrish.com i say lets report it, and let justice punish them...

Just so people understand what i just spammed :p : im for exposing criminal acts, but against print-spamming pictures of the dead, which imo only seems to serve as dirty propaganda. Think of the family of that victim..
 
Ome_Vince said:
Right now this looks like a dirty smeer campaign.
In that case, lets all show fotographs on how arabic ppl including syrians, iranians etc travel to Iraq and blow themselves up at the local police-station killing iraqi young men who were just applying for a job... (insurgents saying if i can blow up 1 american and it costs 20 iraqi's its worth it)
Lets put those faces and dead bodies all over the media...

Lets show ALL the horrors and violents acts performed by the opposing force aswell, not focus on only "our own" incidents and smeer that all over the place with nice gore pictures to increase the "horror"...
I say punish the ones involved but for gods sake respect the dead, and spare them for being used as media propaganda..
Im against the war, but also against any dirty smeer campaign...
Yes, sometimes we need a little shock to wake up, but dragging it on and on is just dirty propaganda imo

Dont get me wrong, im all for exposing criminal acts, so we can hunt down the ppl who did it, but why the pictures? Why the horror? Why so little respect for the dead..

Also, it yet again smells like every bad thing the US or British army does is published all over the world and shoved in the faces of everybody, while killed soldiers and civilians by the opponent, we hardly hear about other than "it happened". Where are the gore pictures? Cmon CNN show us how iraqi civilians are blown up by their own people..

I say show it all or show none at all and just report it..
And since im not looking forward for CNN to turn into Ogrish.com i say lets report it, and let justice punish them...

Just so people understand what i just spammed :p : im for exposing criminal acts, but against print-spamming pictures of the dead, which imo only seems to serve as dirty propaganda. Think of the family of that victim..
Click to expand...


no one is print spamming anything ..in fact none of the images have been published (except for a few that were leaked and shown on australian tv)

the US is stalling on releasing those images, even though they were found on the same cd as the first set of abu-gharib photos ..what's on the images that the US doesnt want the public to see? apparently they say they're using it in an ongoing criminal investigation as some of the pics show victems of homicide
 
I have a couple of things to say on this:

1) It's wierd how big media companies do not show the Mohammed (sp?) cartoons on the grounds of sensitivity, yet splash these images all over (even in commercials :( )

2) This thread is too optimistic about humans. Torture will always exist. I'd rather torture somebody and prevent an attack (or something on those grounds), than not torture anybody and ... well you get the idea.

I like it when there are opposing viewpoints in a politics forum... the same viewpoints make it look like we're in Nazi Germany (as seen in pages 1 and 2 in this thread). :p
 
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