New Exclusive Half-Life 2 Media in PC Gamer

Even if the sun is shining on the second model(eh, the one to the right), there should be alot more shadowing going on. The surfaces on the opposite side of the model still wouldnt be evenly lit by the sun. This happens a lot in hl2 and i dont know why. but man ysurfaces are evenly lit without any shadowing going on when there should be.



Now, i was just pointing out that it would have been much better IMO if they had made it a curve instead of a hard angle. I only have a few years driving experience, but ive never seen a road turn at such a hard angle. It just looks funky to me, but thats just something i mentioned. thats not what i mean when i say there is no detail. I wasnt saying that i htink the road should be so much more detailed. The environment could be more detailed in a number of ways. It just looks so empty and bland.

Now, im the kind of gamer that would notice these things in-game, and that would detract from the experience. I pay close attention to my surroundings, and i notice detail(or lack thereof) and i notice good lighting(or lack thereof). You may not be the same so these things may not bother you the way they bother me. I just know that if i came up on this environment in a game, the lighting errors and lack of detail would only detract from the immersion.
 
I think you're both over-looking the fact that when in motion, it's going to look outstanding. When the game is rolling, you won't spend your time nit-picking at textures, rather run around in an intense gameworld that leaves you oblivious to potential technology inconsistancies or flaws.

EvilEvok, if you want to nit-pick screenshots, I'm more than happy to bring up a few Doom 3 ones where the bump mapping is a joke, textures are distorted and low resolution, and there are spiders with upside-down heads (yes, that last one was a stab at id Software's design team, heh)
 
Really, the fact that player models may be not be perefectly lit won't matter when playing. In fact, if it means you can ssave that much processing power, its probably a good thing. I would laugh if these unnecessarily detailed games coming out ran on only the topmost machines. I think HL2 looks beautiful and will be the game to bring me out of this boredom I am stuck in. And whats with the emphasis on the graphics anyway? The best part of this game is physics, especially the fact that they are incorporated usefully. In most games its there just to make it look better, not for ingame usage. I mean, zombies hitting barrels? thats awesome.

Lets end this stupid quarrel here. Arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics; even if you win, you're still retarded.
 
Ewok, I also believe that might be an older shot. No way to tell, though.

Seeing as how it was stated in UK's PC Format that Doom 3 and HL2 both have self-shadowing models, it makes me wonder why we haven't seen it in the shots that have been released.

Anyhow, maybe VALVe is releasing older shots to throw people off, maybe they're not. No way to tell until the game comes out, also, you need to keep in mind that VALVe is trying to get HL2 to run on lower end machines, while still keeping it looking relatively good.

Anyhow, I'd love to see those shots you speak of, rec :) I never look at Doom 3 shots, as I have no real interest in the game, but it'd be interesting to see
 
What I find kind of funny is, most of the textures in that zombie shot are poor.

I could use Ewok's argument, and say "That screenshot is ugly, other than a nice dx9 trick, and some shadows," but of course, he'll have reasons for that screenshot sucking

Edit: Looking at most of the D3 screenshots, I wouldn't say everything comes together as perfectly as Ewok makes it out to do.

For instance, in that Zombie shot, look at how the wall and ceiling come together, horrible. :)
 
And using Ewok's argument, we could point out that in that lab screenshot, the desk in the lab is just a box with a texture! hah :)

And yes, while D3 does look very impressive (mostly thanks to bump mapping and lighting), it has its lot of poorly implemented design features too.
 
Maybe we should look beyond halflife, .com or something. We might be able to clearly check out those magnificant screens.
 
I think I'm going to be a critic, now.

http://www.planetdoom.com/images/image.asp?screenshots/official/3l.jpg

Look at the skin on the player model nearest the "camera". Looks horribly blurred, and the helmet portion.. what a low quality skin :)

Also, notice in that scene how much of the room is empty? Wow, talk about plain. I think we need a few spiders with upside down heads casting 12 shadows in every which direction to spiff it up. (Okay, maybe the spider comment was going too far.. lol)

The point is, Ewok, you can pretty much criticize any screenshot from any game in one way or another. Although, after looking at the Doom 3 shots, it's not as impressive as you make it out to be. Surely, it looks nice with the use of bumpmaps and lighting, but past that, it looks strictly last generation (I say this because you say the same with HL2, isn't that all these new games are? I mean, really.. think about that for a second).
 
I think you're both over-looking the fact that when in motion, it's going to look outstanding. When the game is rolling, you won't spend your time nit-picking at textures, rather run around in an intense gameworld that leaves you oblivious to potential technology inconsistancies or flaws.
Click to expand...

I dont believe this. The errors will be just as visible in motion. relying on making yourself too busy with enemies to notice them is unrealistic. There will be many times when you stop and look around and check out the environment, and you will notice thats its just hollow and empty and bland. And that the lighting model is rather poor. Regardless of what cyberhseep says, these errors are NOT a good thing.

EvilEvok, if you want to nit-pick screenshots, I'm more than happy to bring up a few Doom 3 ones where the bump mapping is a joke, textures are distorted and low resolution, and there are spiders with upside-down heads (yes, that last one was a stab at id Software's design team, heh)
Click to expand...

How rediculous.

Yea, oooo wow. Look at this !! Look at how the hide has hundreds of bumps, and how they pop out liek they are real, and how light reacts to them as if they are real, and how each one casts its OWN INDIVIDUAL SHADOW! OMG WHAT A JOKE! Its so rediculous, huh?

And oh, look at this one! Look at that rediculous detail! Look at the wrinkles in the skin at the joints of the fingers! It reacts to light as if it were real geometry! Each fold casts its own shadow consistently! Its such a joke that these fools at id didnt paint them on with 2d textures instead, huh? They are such jokes! Look at the hellknight in the back! Look at those rippes muscles! Look at how the light plays off of them, and look at the minute detail on the head, acting in every way as if its real geometry! WHAT A JOKE!

Hehe, heres a better pic of that rediculous hellknight model! You can really see that the head is such a joke! LOOK! HAHA WHAT A JOKE! Look at the tiny dimples in the skin, acting like rea lgeometry with form and shape, and casts its own shadow. Look at the teeth, each one self shadowing accuratly according to the light! Look at how the individual veins under the skin make the skin pop out and look like its actually modelled instead of painted on, and casts its own shadow! This is rediculous huh? Havnt those foold at id learned that its better to have 3d details painted on a 2d texture than to make it look like real geometry? FOOLS!

Here is thebiggest joke of them all! Looky Looky!!! Look at that! HAH! Look at the marines armour. This is an in-game model and it looks as if it consists of no less that 1 million polies! WHAT A JOKE! Look at the gun, each minute dent and divet appears as real geometry instead of 2d painted on textures. Each little dent and divent on the gun reacts to light and self shadows, just as each tiny winy bump on the hide of the hellknight! This is so rediculous, huh? What a JOKE! IM WITH YOU MAN!!


I hope you were joking.

And i know its popular among hl2 fans to quote pennyarcade. I mean they are so phuny and all, huh? JUST HILARIOUS, I SAY! And it makes you so cool to agree with them, huh? But, perhaps you would, just for a moment, venture into the realm of free thinking and tell me just what the problem is with the spiders? They have upside down heads. So?

"Oh humph har har, tey culd drownded in teh rain, dur, HAR HAR! Phunnay!"
 
Calm down, Ewok. Just wow, calm down.

I'll let someone else nitpick your screenshots, I'm going to bed. Although, I love how you say each and every bump has its own shadow in that first screen. I can't say that even half the bumps APPEAR to have shadows, but I guess your eye is just trained for these sorts of things, huh?

Oh well. Have fun replying with all your witty comments, Ewok.
 
Everything you've just shown me is bump mapping paired with their real-time dynamic lightning, you didn't happen to point how ugly any of the textures were, or how the bump mapping often leads to exaggeration.

Regading the Doom 3 models with no less than 1 million polygons... You're wrong. Perhaps pre-engine models, yes, but when converted for in-game use they are no more than 250,000 (still much higher than practically any game out there). The reason it looks like there are so many more poly's is because of the bump mapping.
 
lol, im calm. I dont get upset over the happenings of a gaming forum. I was just having some fun, same as you.

I agree, some doom3 shots are ugly. But i dont see why you guys go through them, as if this somehow excuses hl2s errors. We are here to discuss the hl2 screenshot.

I dont see why you single out doom3, either. The same goes for every game. Im not some doom3 fanboy that is especially offended when soemone attacks doom3. Maybe it was my avatar?


Goodnight.
 
Carmack's genius was to design an engine that utilised models built to full CG specifications, and then convert them to a low polygon version with very little noticeable loss of detail. This is accomplished through a variety of means, the most important of which is modelling the shadows created on the full CG model in a texture format, creating the illusion of a far higher polygon count.
Click to expand...

This means that thie higher cg quality models have been mapped to the lower poly in-game models to present higher definition, this is done with the bumping mapping and lighting.
 
"It's the Carmack magic that allows us to take something that high quality and take it down into the lower poly count and still have the shadows and detail that you would see on the high count model,"
Click to expand...
 
If your stubborn, narrow mind will let you jump from its bias stance for just a second, Ewok, you'll see that both engines have their positives and negatives, even if you (like many others) prefer what id have done over what Valve have done.

Or, in light of your most recent mistake (1 million poly's my arse), maybe you just need to do some more research before shooting off your mouth.
 
lol rec, i didnt say the in-game models are 1 million polies. I was saying that the normal maps(generated form 1+ million polies) allow the low poly in-game models to appear as if they are made of 1+ million polies.

But what do you mean by poorly implimented design features? And how exactly does the normal mapping make a model exaggerated?
 
It doesn't make it exaggerated, however paired with the lighting technology it often does look that way, "shiny" textures that are supposed to be flesh, for example.

Poorly implemented design features, you know exactly what I mean, you've just been telling me what design features are poorly implemented in Half-Life 2.
 
Whoa, getting a little hostile there, rec.

I am in full knowledge that each engine has weaknesses, thats what i was discussing. Sources weaknesses. I wasnt saying other engines are perfect, and Source is not. but i dont come here to discuss other engines, i come here to discuss hl2 and Source.
 
You're not discussing, you're blindly chanting your praise while completely stomping Half-Life 2 without remorse. Credit, where credit is due, and regardless of your opinion, the Source engine deserves credit.

I've not seen one educated or non-bias HL2 vs D3 comparison from you, it seems you're not even reading what others have to say.
 
lol, you got one hell of a short temper.

Your taking this way too personal. Source isnt perfect, get over it. You go off on this posting spree pointing out flaws in other engines as if it makes up for the flaws in source. We are here to talk about source and hl2, not other engines or games. I never said other engines were perfect, or that they didnt have flaws.

I would expect a mod to keep a cool head, if not an objective outlook on the subject.
 
I'm not taking anything personal, I just tell it how I see it. Doom 3 isn't perfect either, get over it.

You're the one who initiated this "engine flaws" discussion, as it makes up for the flaws in Doom 3.

Anyway, this is where my contribution to this thread ends, trying to get into an interesting debate with someone who's ignorance reigns over their reason is pointless.
 
lol.

I never said doom3 is perfect, and im well aware of its flaws.

I didnt initiate a comparison on the engines, i came to a hl2 forum to discuss hl2s engine. If i like what i see, i discuss that. If i dont like what i see, i discuss that. Then there are people like you who get overly offended by any negative comments about yuor precious that you lash out and get hostile.

Its rediculous that a mod is here spitting insults and getting all bitchy. This is normal for the regular memebers, but mods should act with more maturity.

Again, i never said Source is a poor engine, or that other engines are perfect. I only pointed out some flaws in Source that are demonstrated in the new screenshot. It appears you couldnt handle this, and you became overy defensive.
 
Had to comment, just to mention that I'm not offended, although if thinking you've offended me gives you a buz, that's fine too - I'm here for the community. :)

As for "my precious"... Buddy, I'm looking forward to Doom 3 more than Half-Life 2, I simply dron't haven't got an ignorant bias outlook on the engine debate.
 
Thats good that your not offended, it just seemed that way with all the insults and what not.

I dont know why you think i have a biased outlook though. Sure, i may have been hard on Source, but i would be equally hard on doom3 on a doom3 forum. I just dont come to a hl2 forum in order to discuss doom3, i come here to discuss source. Likewise, i wouldnt try to discuss Source on a doom3 forum. As for me, im looking forward to Stalker and Farcry more than doom3 or hl2. Thats why i dont know why you were knocking doom3 so hard, i ddint think that i displayed any kind of biased towards it here.

but whatever.

Ckeck your PMs, BTW. If you havnt already. =)


*EDIT

Ok, lol. I can see hwo you would think i was biased towards doom3 after my post with all the doom3 pics, but i was just ****ign around. I wasnt serious. I mean, i do think that the normal maps in doom3 make it look amazing, but the actual text of the message was just me being intentionally retarded.
 
That picture (ingame) is really sad, it looks more like it was taken as an afterthought , perhaps even from the beta (most likely), it doesnt strike me as something that should be official...
thats my opinion however, perhaps my vision of HL2 is far too high for it to live up to now... especially after delving deep into other projects and comparing features and such.

Im still the biggest HL2 fan ever, but this media is sad to say the least, and my expectations drop every day.

(you guys are taking this way too far, reread this thread, Ewok actually didnt start anything this time, he merely posted his opinion and was attacked.... you guys know me, Im not taking sides, Im merely pointing out what seems to be obvious, Ewok was a moron before... but so far he seems unbiased, this really wasnt called for, neither by community nor moderator)
 
Originally posted by EvilEwok2.0
Thats good that your not offended, it just seemed that way with all the insults and what not.

I dont know why you think i have a biased outlook though. Sure, i may have been hard on Source, but i would be equally hard on doom3 on a doom3 forum. I just dont come to a hl2 forum in order to discuss doom3, i come here to discuss source. Likewise, i wouldnt try to discuss Source on a doom3 forum. As for me, im looking forward to Stalker and Farcry more than doom3 or hl2. Thats why i dont know why you were knocking doom3 so hard, i ddint think that i displayed any kind of biased towards it here.

but whatever.

Ckeck your PMs, BTW. If you havnt already. =)


*EDIT

Ok, lol. I can see hwo you would think i was biased towards doom3 after my post with all the doom3 pics, but i was just ****ign around. I wasnt serious. I mean, i do think that the normal maps in doom3 make it look amazing, but the actual text of the message was just me being intentionally retarded.
Click to expand...

Ohh FFS, do you guys not realise that a game is not about the graphics??? Sure they help, but a game for the most part, is about the gameplay... The graphics in both of the games look kick arse... but it will be the gameplay which dictates which is better.
 
Originally posted by EvilEwok2.0
Ckeck your PMs, BTW. If you havnt already. =)
Click to expand...

didn't get anything ? please send also :)

so still no offcial releasedate in the article huh ? :/
and when are they going to release the last 3 movies on steam ?
lucky the STALKER vids were there to comfurt me and make me forget about HL2 for a sec :)
 
I blew off PAINKILLER as another Serious Sam ripoff (didnt like SS), but after checking out the gameplay vids I think it may be another game Im adding to my "must buy" list :)

I suggest checking some of these out, the game has some neato keen features, excellent gfx and a cool gothic story.

Official Site:
http://www.painkillergame.com/

3d Gamers Vids:
http://www.3dgamers.com/games/painkiller/#filelist

I recommend atrium and train station :D
 
I wonder if EvilEwok2.0 knows he sounds like a godam tard?
 
Originally posted by EvilEwok2.0
lol rec, i didnt say the in-game models are 1 million polies. I was saying that the normal maps(generated form 1+ million polies) allow the low poly in-game models to appear as if they are made of 1+ million polies.

But what do you mean by poorly implimented design features? And how exactly does the normal mapping make a model exaggerated?
Click to expand...

It doesn't look like a 1 million poly model, it looks like a low poly model with a nice normalmap on it. A normal map doesn't change the outline of a model, no matter what way you look at it, the edges are anything but nicely curved like the ones on the model used to generate the normal map. But wait EvilEwok, you're probably going to say you won't notice this in motion eh? Well:

I dont believe this. The errors will be just as visible in motion. relying on making yourself too busy with enemies to notice them is unrealistic. There will be many times when you stop and look around and check out the environment, and you will notice thats its just hollow and empty and bland. And that the lighting model is rather poor. Regardless of what cyberhseep says, these errors are NOT a good thing.
Click to expand...

That's what you said about rec's comment regarding the hl2 screenshot.

Doom 3 has many errors, just like any other game (yes HL2 too) because current hardware is still very limited. Doom 3 tries to have nice lighting, but since poly's are slow to render, it uses bump maps to replace them. That's one of Doom 3's weak points, low poly geometry which they try to make up for with normal mapping, it works to a certain extent, but some things just look plain horrible. Low poly geometry, 256x256 textures *shivers*

http://www.planetdoom.com/images/image.asp?screenshots/official/4l.jpg

The hallway is just really really low poly, an area where normal maps can't make up for the lack of poly's. You probably won't notice this in motion, but the same goes for HL2, in motion it looks awesome.
And if you do notice this in motion, your argument also applies to Doom 3, there ARE errors in it, like low resolution textures, always hard stencil shadows, too dark shadows, low poly geometry, the noticeable flatness of normal maps (no matter what way you look at it, normal maps are 2d) etc etc.

Btw, you keep going on about how great all these normal maps are, but it's nothing Doom 3 specific, any next gen engine supports it (including Source, CryEngine and X-ray), and it looks equally good, not only in Doom 3.
 
I am sorry for the crappy scan Ewok. I was trying to do this in a hurry. The reason for the scan was to bring you something to talk about. If you want to see the good picture get the magazine. I could have easily said there are new screens without a scan and no one would have believed me. The whole point of this reply is be happy with what you have for you might have never gotten it.
 
Originally posted by rec
Examples of spiders with upside-down heads:
- http://www.planetdoom.com/images/image.asp?screenshots/official/14l.jpg
- http://www.planetdoom.com/images/image.asp?screenshots/official/8l.jpg
Click to expand...

hmm, lesser quality versions of the headcrab from The Thing aren't they. Now if they had more spider looking legs, and some faked hairs on them, perhaps eye stalks sprouting from the neck, maybe even a scene or two where they separate from a human body, then I'd be very impressed
 
Can somebody give us some scans? People from other countries also want to have a look at the new staff...thanks ;)
 
If someone wants to PM them to you, that's nothing to do with us.
 
Woah. Is this in the Aussie version of PC Gamer?

And to the debaters out there:

Doom 3: 2000-3000 poly models, with high level normal maps and medium-quality textures.

Half-Life 2: 5000-6000 poly models, with medium level normal maps and high-quality textures.

Just stating what facts I can make out from the online articles.

I prefer the source engine, but I'll be buying both games :E.
 
Originally posted by Brian Damage
Woah. Is this in the Aussie version of PC Gamer?

And to the debaters out there:

Doom 3: 2000-3000 poly models, with high level normal maps and medium-quality textures.

Half-Life 2: 5000-6000 poly models, with medium level normal maps and high-quality textures.

Just stating what facts I can make out from the online articles.

I prefer the source engine, but I'll be buying both games :E.
Click to expand...

i hope your not saying Source has a limit on normal map sizes.. eg 256x256 max normal map size when used with a 512z512 texture map size, and so on like that, with the normal map always being lower res. That would be annoying and well yeah annoying :)
 
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