New Pat Condell Video

[Mr Stabby]

Solaris you are an ignorant twat, stop defending the IRA, it's clearly something you know **** all about.

 

[Solaris]

Solaris you are an ignorant twat, stop defending the IRA, it's clearly something you know **** all about.

Brilliant rebuke there.

For your information, I have read quite a lot on the subject. Including the books, provos, loyalists and brits, forgot the authors name. I have also read War on an Irish Town, A history of Ireland, all three volumes, connollys marixsm, A history of the Irish working class and a Biography on Patrick Pearce.

My family are from Belfast and I go there several times a year and plan to move their next year.

Pick me up on one of my claims I can back them up fully. It wasn't really until I read war on a Irish town that I became a sympathiser with the IRA. The book details a man living in the bogside in Derry throughout the 1960's and 70's. The story's he tells really urked me and made me rethink my whole position on the matter. Talking to familly members who lived throughout the events the books describes as catholics confirms what the book says and so I have formulated my opinions.

 

[ericms]

The 9/11 bombers however had privileged upbringings, university educations, PhD's. They had never experienced hardship, never been 'oppressed' in Iraq or Palestine. They never used these acts to justify their actions. Their motivations were Religious and this is reflected in their actions. They targeted civilians for the crime of not being Muslims.

Sam Harris in his book asks us to consider what would happen if we gave different groups the perfect weapon. This weapon would be able to kill anyone, from anywhere, killing only the target. If we gave this to say the IRA, they would kill politicians and soldiers. Most certainly not children as they have done accidental. Muslims suicide bombers however, would target children and women and non combatants. Their motivations are religious.

Their is no non-religious justification that would drive a sane human being to blow up a school of children. No matter how badly you treat an atheist, no matter how many bombs Isreal drops on his country, an atheist simply would not seek to murder Isreali school children. That takes a religion motivation.

Now maybe hardship and political reasons do drive people into religious extremism. But it is the religion that is to blame for the extremity of their actions.

This seems strange to me coming from you Solaris. You've acknowledged before the meddling that the United States does in Latin America. How can you now say that these extremists pursue these atrocities purely with religious means. Yes, they speak with religious rhetoric, which might lead one to conclude as you did, but how can you be so quick to ignore the United State's policies in the Middle East and our alliance with dictators there while being the first to denounce the United State's policies in Latin America. The former lead of the CIA's unit against Bin Laden, Michael Scheurer, provides our foreign policy as their justification. As does the likes of Noam Chomsky (who I'd assume his books you'd be well versed in), Adam Gadahn (whose demands most prominently mention the United State's occupation in the middle east and our aid and support of Arab dictatorships), and Bin Laden himself.

 

[Absinthe]

There's no denying there are legitimate political grievances in a lot of cases. But the element of Islam is so heavily intertwined into its execution of frame of view. Moreso than any other contemporary terrorist force such as the IRA.

Many Islamic terrorists do fight because they feel the West has slighted them, but most ground this in the view that Western infidels are encroaching on Muslim ground. That's why you get such a wide embrace of martyrdom. That's why namedropping Allah is so common. That's why they broadcast barbaric videos of mutilating and decapitating their captives in their attempts to reflect Mohammed as he would have done.

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

Defending terrorism because the target used terrorism against you is only applicable in situations like the Nazi government and the likes.

Britain may be racist to roman catholics and Irish, but their not putting them in ovens.

There for Solaris,

YOU PHAIL

 

[Mr Stabby]

Brilliant rebuke there.

It wasn't a rebuke, it was an observation.

For your information, I have read quite a lot on the subject. Including the books, provos, loyalists and brits, forgot the authors name. I have also read War on an Irish Town, A history of Ireland, all three volumes, connollys marixsm, A history of the Irish working class and a Biography on Patrick Pearce.

Pearce died before the original IRA even existed let alone the Provos. Pre-troubles Irish history isn't really relevant. A few books is hardly an firm understanding of the Northern Irish history, which is evident, in your lack of knowledge.

My family are from Belfast and I go there several times a year and plan to move their next year.

Well you better learn a more realistic view of the troubles pr you may get your head kicked in. There will be a lot of people that would find your views on the IRA quite offensive.

Pick me up on one of my claims I can back them up fully.

Regarding the Disappeared you said

Yes, but not innocent civilians.

She should have been shunned out of the community but not shot. I doubt the IRA army council would have authorized it, likely a volunteer who perhaps had grown a taste for killing - these people exist in all armed organizations took it upon him or herself.

However, the woman was not killed becuase of who she was it was becuase of what she did.

It was very definitely authorized at the highest level. What exactly is wrong with helping an wounded soldier, ever heard of compassion? Also you'll find most catholics despise the IRA, so the community would not have shunned her.

The IRA did not target women and children, please tell me of an example when they did.

Bloody Friday Enniskillen Bombing I'm sure you like the RIRA as much as the provos so http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omagh_bombing

They killed civilians by accident, innocent civilians were never targeted, they never targeted people purely because they were protestant either, if they did that, why would there be protestants in an anti-protestant organization?

Targeting Protestants

In September 1975, for example, IRA members machine-gunned an Orange Hall in Newtownhamilton, killing five Protestants. On 5 January 1976, an IRA unit in Armagh shot dead ten Protestant building workers at Kingsmills, in reprisal for Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF) killings of six Roman Catholics the previous day.[18] In similar incidents, the IRA deliberately killed 91 Protestant civilians in 1974-76 (CAIN). The IRA did not officially claim the killings, but justified them in a statement on 17 January 1976, "The Irish Republican Army has never initiated sectarian killings ...[but] if loyalist elements responsible for over 300 sectarian assassinations in the past four years stop such killing now, then the question of retaliation from whatever source does not arise".[19]

source


Targeting civilians http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_pub_bombings London attacks

It wasn't really until I read war on a Irish town that I became a sympathiser with the IRA. The book details a man living in the bogside in Derry throughout the 1960's and 70's. The story's he tells really urked me and made me rethink my whole position on the matter. Talking to familly members who lived throughout the events the books describes as catholics confirms what the book says and so I have formulated my opinions.

So, because the NI state mistreated catholics, therefore it is legitimate, to put car bombs on busy streets, don't see the logic there. What did the IRA achieve that the SDLP didn't, in fact the SDLP achieve substantially more, and they didn't hurt anyone.

 

[Solaris]

Pearce died before the original IRA even existed let alone the Provos. Pre-troubles Irish history isn't really relevant. A few books is hardly an firm understanding of the Northern Irish history, which is evident, in your lack of knowledge.

It's essential knowledge to understand IRA mentality. Surely you recognize this.

It was very definitely authorized at the highest level. What exactly is wrong with helping an wounded soldier, ever heard of compassion? Also you'll find most catholics despise the IRA, so the community would not have shunned her.

I disagree, that BBC article give very little information on what actually happened. However, I imagine had she lived in the bogside, seen her neighbors brutally murdered by plastic bullets whilst doing the dishes in their kitchens. Had she lived along side neighbors who's sons were being tortured in internment concentration camps, held without charge or trial indefinitely, had her neighbors been shot at whilst on a peaceful civil rights march; they would rightly hold grievance against her for aiding an enemy soldier who was killed in retaliation to these crimes, or perhaps to prevent him committing another one.

Bloody Friday Enniskillen Bombing I'm sure you like the RIRA as much as the provos so http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omagh_bombing

No I'm not a fan of the RIRA, peaceful means are now possible and Omagh was a tradargy, but I'm sure they didn't mean to do it. Again the remembrance bombing was a mistake. The IRA never meant to kill innocent civilian targets.

Targeting Protestants
source

Of course they killed members of Loyalist terror mobs.

Targeting civilians http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_pub_bombings London attacks

They didn't target civillians, they did their best to get warnings to evacuate the pubs.

So, because the NI state mistreated catholics, therefore it is legitimate, to put car bombs on busy streets, don't see the logic there. What did the IRA achieve that the SDLP didn't, in fact the SDLP achieve substantially more, and they didn't hurt anyone.

Tell me, when the British Army and the RUC were running havoc on catholic areas, beating up anybody they could see, shooting unarmed people dead, torturing people to death in internment camps, did the SDLP try and stop them? No, it was the IRA on the streets protecting the people with guns.

 

[Mr Stabby]

It's essential knowledge to understand IRA mentality. Surely you recognize this.

You have a very simplistic understanding of Irish history, the north has always been different to the south as the north has always been strongly unionist and protestant. The causes of the easter rising etc. are different to the causes of the troubles. I don't see any connection between the troubles and the easter rising other than the overall goal of ending British involvement in Ireland, but that issue is trivial in the troubles.

I disagree, that BBC article give very little information on what actually happened. However, I imagine had she lived in the bogside, seen her neighbors brutally murdered by plastic bullets whilst doing the dishes in their kitchens. Had she lived along side neighbors who's sons were being tortured in internment concentration camps, held without charge or trial indefinitely, had her neighbors been shot at whilst on a peaceful civil rights march; they would rightly hold grievance against her for aiding an enemy soldier who was killed in retaliation to these crimes, or perhaps to prevent him committing another one.

This is the ignorance I was talking about.

No I'm not a fan of the RIRA, peaceful means are now possible and Omagh was a tradargy, but I'm sure they didn't mean to do it. Again the remembrance bombing was a mistake. The IRA never meant to kill innocent civilian targets.

They most certainly meant to harm civilians, they knew what would happen if the put a bomb, near a public gathering. To say that the Enniskillen bombing was not intended to harm people is extremely ignorant. What's your apologetic view of Bloody Friday?

Of course they killed members of Loyalist terror mobs.

They also killed ordinary protestants read the article.

They didn't target civillians, they did their best to get warnings to evacuate the pubs.

Nonsense, they knew perfectly well that bombs would kill people and they didn't always give a warning, not that a warning makes up for planting bombs in civilian areas.

Tell me, when the British Army and the RUC were running havoc on catholic areas, beating up anybody they could see, shooting unarmed people dead, torturing people to death in internment camps, did the SDLP try and stop them? No, it was the IRA on the streets protecting the people with guns.

Actually during internment the PIRA were almost non-existent, the British government had already intervened in NI to reform the state, all the IRA did was ruin any attempt at a peaceful government or give hardline unionist an excuse to ruin it. The PIRA killed far more civilians than any the supposedly protected. The British army nor the RUC ever directly targeted civilians unlike the IRA.

You really do need to learn N.Irish history better.

 

[Nemesis6]

Ah, yes, first you claim they didn't target civilians, then when confronted with reality... Then they must be "evil civilians", yes - And quite possibly Satanic. And at that point, you're ok with their deaths. I wonder... If someone here presented personal information about some of the victims that contradicted your whole "they were evil civilians" claim, would that change anything? No, you would most likely either claim falsity or condemn only that death.

 

[Solaris]

You have a very simplistic understanding of Irish history, the north has always been different to the south as the north has always been strongly unionist and protestant. The causes of the easter rising etc. are different to the causes of the troubles. I don't see any connection between the troubles and the easter rising other than the overall goal of ending British involvement in Ireland, but that issue is trivial in the troubles.

Then you are ignorant of the situation. The IRA's constantly talk about the easter rising and it is an inspiration for them. Until the 1970's the PIRA claimed to be the provisional government of the Irish Republic that was established by Pearce, Plunket, Conolly et al in 1916.

This is the ignorance I was talking about.

It's the situation catholics faced every day in Northern Ireland. My Grandfather was once driving my dad and his siblings back from mass, they were stopped at a British Army Checkpoint checkpoint. The soldier seeing some prayerbooks from mass in the back seat said to my Grandfather "Get out of the car you fenian scum". They then took him away and he returned home 12 hours later after being held without charge in a cell and beaten up quite badly by the soldiers.

They most certainly meant to harm civilians, they knew what would happen if the put a bomb, near a public gathering. To say that the Enniskillen bombing was not intended to harm people is extremely ignorant. What's your apologetic view of Bloody Friday?

No they did not. Or else why would they call in warnings? What would be their motivation for trying to kill civilians?

Nonsense, they knew perfectly well that bombs would kill people and they didn't always give a warning, not that a warning makes up for planting bombs in civilian areas.

All wars result in civilian causalities, when that war is conducted by poorly trained people with ameutirsh explosives then it's only natural that disasters will happen.

Actually during internment the PIRA were almost non-existent, the British government had already intervened in NI to reform the state, all the IRA did was ruin any attempt at a peaceful government or give hardline unionist an excuse to ruin it. The PIRA killed far more civilians than any the supposedly protected. The British army nor the RUC ever directly targeted civilians unlike the IRA.

That's not true, the PIRA became popular becuase of internments, in the years before bloody sunday in derry, both IRA's would nt take any more volunteers, they were swamped with people wanting to join.

You say the British Army and the RUC never targeted civilians?


Samuel Devenny (42) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC)
Died three months after being badly beaten in his home, William Street, Bogside, Derry.

Patrick Rooney (9) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC)
Shot at his home, during nearby street disturbances, St Brendan's Path, Divis Flats, Belfast.

John Duddy (17) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: British Army (BA)
Shot during anti-internment march in the vicinity of Rossville Street, Bogside, Derry.

Kevin McElhinney (17) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: British Army (BA)
Shot during anti-internment march in the vicinity of Rossville Street, Bogside, Derry.

Patrick Doherty (31) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: British Army (BA)
Shot during anti-internment march in the vicinity of Rossville Street, Bogside, Derry.

Bernard McGuigan (41) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: British Army (BA)
Shot during anti-internment march in the vicinity of Rossville Street, Bogside, Derry.

Patrick Donaghy (86) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: British Army (BA)
Shot at the window of his flat, Divis Tower, Divis Flats, Belfast.

To name but a few.

 

[Mr Stabby]

Then you are ignorant of the situation. The IRA's constantly talk about the easter rising and it is an inspiration for them. Until the 1970's the PIRA claimed to be the provisional government of the Irish Republic that was established by Pearce, Plunket, Conolly et al in 1916.

You calling me ignorant, that's laughable. What has IRA propaganda got to do with reality? You've confused IRA propaganda with actual facts.

It's the situation catholics faced every day in Northern Ireland. My Grandfather was once driving my dad and his siblings back from mass, they were stopped at a British Army Checkpoint checkpoint. The soldier seeing some prayerbooks from mass in the back seat said to my Grandfather "Get out of the car you fenian scum". They then took him away and he returned home 12 hours later after being held without charge in a cell and beaten up quite badly by the soldiers.

That's a gross overstatement, to say catholics faced anything like a police state is an utter exaggeration. Sure Catholics were discriminated against by the state, but not nearly in the proportion you think. Also why does that justify those abductions? You never clarified.

No they did not. Or else why would they call in warnings? What would be their motivation for trying to kill civilians?

They planted bombs in civilian areas, you honestly think , they were not intended to injure people, you are seriously deluded

All wars result in civilian causalities, when that war is conducted by poorly trained people with ameutirsh explosives then it's only natural that disasters will happen.

Actually the IRA were the most effective terrorists organization in post war Europe, they were not amateur, and those car bombs were no accident.

That's not true, the PIRA became popular becuase of internments, in the years before bloody sunday in derry, both IRA's would nt take any more volunteers, they were swamped with people wanting to join.

I think your misread my post. The PIRA was non existent before internment, therefore your claim that they defended people from it, was wrong, they only became truly active after bloody Sunday in 1972 when internment had ended. There is no legitimate reason for the IRAs existence let alone it's actions.

You say the British Army and the RUC never targeted civilians?

They never directly intended to kill them as organizations, unlike the IRA. The Army and RUC did kill civilians but it was never the intention of either organization, the same cannot be said for the IRA.

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

An E**CENSORED**C battle between commie and capitolist.


WHO WILL WIN??

 

[Sulkdodds]

capitolist.

That's - that's something completely different!

:churchill: Get out! You haven't even been born yet!

 

[No Limit]

I beg to differ, if the Vatican was occupied by say, Saudi Arabia, a Muslim country and all the Priests and the pope were executed, can you really see polish catholics going to Saudi Arabia and blowing up a school, to kill the non believers?

Having lived in Poland if Pope John Paul was killed by a muslim state I can see more than one polish catholic from some small village going to blow some shit up. I am being dead serious here, you have no idea how much Polish catholics adored this guy. When he died most people got up to a week off work.

You are making silly arguments, I expected more from you. You are justifying killing civillians from the IRA. The exact same arguments you are making can be made toward any muslim terrorist attack. By your own reasoning clearly Osama was not targetting civillians during 9/11. The pentagon was a military target and so was the world trade center because of the number of foreign representatives occupying it. These are stupid arguments, it was terrorism, terrorism you are trying to justify. Chechen's targeted schools not for religion but for political reasons. Yes, they were muslims, but never did they justify what they did by using religion, religion had nothing to do with it. And you are right, nobody in their right mind would target women and children which as has already been proved the IRA did on more than one occasion. Your justification of it using their bullshit propogenda doesn't change that. Clearly your family is catholic as you said, this is the only reason you are justifying it. And in the same sentence you have the audocity to say that when muslims do it its not okay, when catholics do it its perfectly ok.

 

[Solaris]

Having lived in Poland if Pope John Paul was killed by a muslim state I can see more than one polish catholic from some small village going to blow some shit up. I am being dead serious here, you have no idea how much Polish catholics adored this guy. When he died most people got up to a week off work.

You are making silly arguments, I expected more from you. You are justifying killing civillians from the IRA. The exact same arguments you are making can be made toward any muslim terrorist attack. By your own reasoning clearly Osama was not targetting civillians during 9/11. The pentagon was a military target and so was the world trade center because of the number of foreign representatives occupying it. These are stupid arguments, it was terrorism, terrorism you are trying to justify. Chechen's targeted schools not for religion but for political reasons. Yes, they were muslims, but never did they justify what they did by using religion, religion had nothing to do with it. And you are right, nobody in their right mind would target women and children which as has already been proved the IRA did on more than one occasion. Your justification of it using their bullshit propogenda doesn't change that. Clearly your family is catholic as you said, this is the only reason you are justifying it. And in the same sentence you have the audocity to say that when muslims do it its not okay, when catholics do it its perfectly ok.

This just isn't true.

I am not justifying killing civilians by the IRA. The IRA should have realized that they were risking to many innocent lives with their bombing strategies, but their really wasn't much they could do. I think the Official IRA made the right move when they went on ceasefire.

Of course Osama was targeting civilians, he himself admitted it. The IRA's aim was not to kill civilians. Why would they want to? What could they have gained? They wanted to pressure the British government into letting go of NI, they did not want to kill civillians. Killing civillians however was the suicide bombers primary aim. And this was becuase of Islam.

 

[KagePrototype]

but their really wasn't much they could do.

Couldn't they have just, you know, not used bombs in public locations?

Killing civillians however was the suicide bombers primary aim. And this was becuase of Islam.

So civilian death is an acceptable by-product of protest, so long as it's not the protestor's primary aim?

 

[Solaris]

Couldn't they have just, you know, not used bombs in public locations?



So civilian death is an acceptable by-product of protest, so long as it's not the protestor's primary aim?

Collateral Damage is inevitable in any armed conflict, you should despise the IRA for the innocents they killed as much as you should the British army for those killed by us when we invaded Iraq.

 

[Mr Stabby]

Collateral Damage is inevitable in any armed conflict, you should despise the IRA for the innocents they killed as much as you should the British army for those killed by us when we invaded Iraq.

I don't know of any specific incident in which the actions of British soldiers led to civilian deaths in Iraq, any which did happen should be subject to an investigation and court martial, of any solider found responsible of directly killing a civilian, unless it was an unfortunate accident.

The majority of civilian deaths caused by the IRA cannot in any way be considered accidents, planting a bomb at a remembrance service, or abducting and murdering civilians, are acts of cold blooded murder.

 

[Kadayi]

There is nothing collateral about putting bombs on Buses, in Pubs or Hotels.

 

[No Limit]

Collateral Damage is inevitable in any armed conflict, you should despise the IRA for the innocents they killed as much as you should the British army for those killed by us when we invaded Iraq.

You honestly can't see how what you are saying can apply to Islamic terrorism? Come on, you're ****ing with me, right?

Forget it, I give up.

 

[Solaris]

You honestly can't see how what you are saying can apply to Islamic terrorism? Come on, you're ****ing with me, right?

Forget it, I give up.

But the Islamic terrorists primary aim is to kill civilians.
The IRA's was to destroy the NI state.

 

[Mr Stabby]

But the Islamic terrorists primary aim is to kill civilians.
The IRA's was to destroy the NI state.

Actually Islamic extremist wish to establish an Islamic caliphate in the middle east. Morally there is little difference between the IRA and Al-Queada.

The difference is that the IRA's actions are irrelevant to religion, or the theological doctrine of catholicism. Islamic extremists however have their political views closely linked to Wahhabist Islam.

 

[Ravioli]

new video, sry if already posted

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5cXWElb-GE

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

1st video was better.

There are plenty or religions that are good. Just alot of bastard phonies who use it to better their cause.

I'd go so far to say that a violent religion is the answer. As one side will not be stopped (radicals), and the other side will simply thinkt hat words will stop them (this dude).

Well, I'll go peacefully into the night with my boat of Catholics. We are just panzies who don't do anything anymore. Today we simply drink tea and eat crackers as our boat is swallowed up by the sea of radicals. See ya when your boat goes down too.

 

[Lt. Drebin]

Seriously, can we have ONE thread about Islam where you or Stern doesn't throw in the tired "hurrrr but Christianity is retarded too!!!"?

Uhhh....nope. Thank you. :O

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

The thing is, Christianity passed it's stupidity and is now alot better then before. Islam is stuck in the middle ages.

 

[delusional]

The thing is, Christianity passed it's stupidity and is now alot better then before. Islam is stuck in the middle ages.

Actually they kinda switched places, Islam was the intelligent one during the crusades.

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

Yea, exactly. Islam went from brains to stupid and Christianity is vice versa.

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

The thing is, Christianity passed it's stupidity and is now alot better then before. Islam is stuck in the middle ages.

I love how you continue to generalise, when you actually have no clue what your talking about. Stop it. Right now. Generlisations suck.

 

[PortalStormzzzz]

No. It's true somewhat. I've already said that I'm not going to write three pages saying what every Islamic sect stands for. For now, when I talk like this, it is directed at the Muslim leaders of their faith who continue to pull bigger shit loads out of their anus. We all know the majority of Muslim people are kind people, just as the Christian people were not crazy in the middle ages, just the ecclesiastical estate.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Having lived in Poland if Pope John Paul was killed by a muslim state I can see more than one polish catholic from some small village going to blow some shit up. I am being dead serious here, you have no idea how much Polish catholics adored this guy. When he died most people got up to a week off work.

Oh no. Not a week. zzzzz.

It's true somewhat. I've already said that I'm not going to write three pages saying what every Islamic sect stands for.

Well, not like you need too -- Pat Condell already does an excellent job of that.