New Study: 39,000 Iraqis killed since 2003 ...by small arms alone

[CptStern]

39,000 Iraqis killed in fighting: study



"Around 39,000 Iraqis have been killed as a direct result of combat or armed violence since the US-led invasion, a figure considerably higher than previous estimates, a Swiss institute reports."


The Swiss institute said it arrived at its estimate of Iraqi deaths resulting solely from either combat or armed violence by re-examining the raw data gathered for the Lancet study and classifying the cause of death when it could.

Its 2005 small arms survey generally concludes that conflict deaths from small arms have been vastly under-reported in the past, not just in Iraq but around the globe.

Following a formula developed at the United Nations, the small arms survey covers a broad range of hand-held arms, ranging from pistols and rifles to military-style machine guns, small mortars and portable anti-tank systems. "



discuss

 

[63]

God Bless America.

 

[Lemonking]

Im sure some of them deserved to be killed (Insurgents) and also some have been killed not by US guns/bombs rather by other Insurgents.still Im Im sure a large number are civiliansthat killed by unintended by the US .very sad.but still I think leaving now would make things alot worse

 

[Eg.]

God Bless America.

best. first. reply. ever

now, this doesnt distinguish between the military deaths from resistance of the iraqi army to the invasion, and civilian deaths from terrorists.

so, in conclusion, america is not to blame.

 

[CptStern]

best. first. reply. ever

now, this doesnt distinguish between the military deaths from resistance of the iraqi army to the invasion, and civilian deaths from terrorists.

so, in conclusion, america is not to blame.

no




"The major causes of death reported by the families before the invasion were myocardial infarction, cere-brovascular accidents, and consequences of chronic conditions, while after the invasion violence was the primary cause of death and most of those deaths were attributed to coalition forces."


source

 

[Eg.]

well, its obviously from the germans, they LOVE killing civi's

 

[Lemonking]

??? are you joking?

 

[Space Farm]

lol, damn Germans.

Nah all jokes aside I bet a fair percentage of those 39,00 people were armed with AK's and or rpgs.

 

[Teta_Bonita]

Uhh... that's to bad? Its not like civilian casualties in war are unnavoidable... (so don't go blaming my country for it! :E)

 

[Sulkdodds]

I blame Shens.

"The major causes of death reported by the families before the invasion were myocardial infarction, cere-brovascular accidents, and consequences of chronic conditions, while after the invasion violence was the primary cause of death and most of those deaths were attributed to coalition forces."

Seriously? Coalition cause more deaths than mean insurgents?

 

[Gray Fox]

Most of the time I agree with you Stern, but IMO that report should make a distinction between innocent civilians and insurgents.

 

[Solaris]

They both have a right to exist.

The USA invaded their country illegally, it killed its civillians, the people have a right to resist.

 

[CptStern]

Most of the time I agree with you Stern, but IMO that report should make a distinction between innocent civilians and insurgents.

you dont seem to understand the nature of the study ...it's reporting deaths caused by small arms ..not by ordinance dropped from a plane, not from roadside bombs, not from natural causes ..but by SMALL ARMS ..that's ALL it says ..you guys should really read the full report before posting

 

[Warbie]

I didn't know small arms were that dangerous!

Mine are quite small - but I have joined a gym and should be buff soon \o/

 

[jondy]

I didn't know small arms were that dangerous!

Mine are quite small - but I have joined a gym and should be buff soon \o/

*jondy shoots himself*

 

[The Mullinator]

They both have a right to exist.

The USA invaded their country illegally, it killed its civillians, the people have a right to resist.

Tell that to American troops when they are being shot at and bombed by the same people who are also killing hostages and killing as many Iraqi civilians as possible. If you want to resist then just don't do it by killing, its moronic if you think thats the way to resist and be seen as heroes. Look at how Ghandi resisted instead.

I am sorry but having the right to exist does not mean its a good thing for the rest of the world if you are alive.

 

[The Monkey]

Tell that to American troops when they are being shot at and bombed by the same people who are also killing hostages and killing as many Iraqi civilians as possible. If you want to resist then just don't do it by killing, its moronic if you think thats the way to resist and be seen as heroes. Look at how Ghandi resisted instead.

Or how Americans resisted against the British in the 18th century? :upstare:
I certainly don't agree with the killing of civilians, but I think that if a country is occupied, it has the right to a resitance movement. If fair fought, of course.

 

[French Ninja]

Or how Americans resisted against the British in the 18th century? :upstare:
I certainly don't agree with the killing of civilians, but I think that if a country is occupied, it has the right to a resitance movement. If fair fought, of course.

You must keep in mind that there is a difference between theocratic scum who are just there to cause trouble and actual freedom fighters.

 

[Top Secret]

AHahhahha

The XYZ boys tried to do this in Vietnam.

The result? It doesn't work.

 

[CptStern]

You must keep in mind that there is a difference between theocratic scum who are just there to cause trouble and actual freedom fighters.

yes but the media and the coalition forces have one word for all the combatants in iraq: terrorist

 

[gh0st]

you dont seem to understand the nature of the study ...it's reporting deaths caused by small arms ..not by ordinance dropped from a plane, not from roadside bombs, not from natural causes ..but by SMALL ARMS ..that's ALL it says ..you guys should really read the full report before posting

i imagine that the insurgents use small arms significantly more than using roadside bombs. so, having not read the report and for the record, how many of those killed are innocent people killed by coalition forces and how many are insurgents?

 

[T.H.C.138]

39,000 Iraqis killed in fighting: study



Following a formula developed at the United Nations, the small arms survey covers a broad range of hand-held arms, ranging from pistols and rifles to military-style machine guns, small mortars and portable anti-tank systems. "



discuss

explosive devices...hmmm..

granted its not a roadside bomb,but it seems a little more lethal than a handgun...

and as far as I know everyone can tell that its not about big bada-boom weapons...

most would like to know how many of those 39,000 are civvies and how many are "Mujahadeen"..

which is what the U.S. military in Iraq is calling the insurgents these days..means something like "Holy Warrior"...

 

[Mechagodzilla]

If only 1% of that number is civilian, that's still 390 deaths.

However, I think it's fairly obvious that that percentage is much higher. Possibly even 100%, if the study only counts civilians.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm certain I've read somewhere that the majority of actual real terrorists currently in Iraq moved in after the start of the war. Supposedly they would not be classified as Iraqis in this study.

All the non-terrorist iraqi fighters are just people who are pissed at America taking over their country.
I'd be pissed too, given the circumstances. Not the the extent of violence, but people on all the sides of this conflict have shown the ease at which many will choose violence as a first resort.
I certainly don't agree with the insurgent's methods, but I can see why they would choose them.

 

[Raziaar]

No war really has a lack of civilian casualties. It sucks, and its a damn shame when innocents die. Truely sad, and maddening. At least we're not still in the day when accomplishing anything by air you had to carpet bomb. entire cities to take out one building.

 

[CptStern]

i imagine that the insurgents use small arms significantly more than using roadside bombs. so, having not read the report and for the record, how many of those killed are innocent people killed by coalition forces and how many are insurgents?

here ya go, look it up yourself


btw you guys dont seem to get that the study looks at deaths caused by small arms ...meaning it incudes ALL deaths from small arms, whether they were killed by coalition/terrorist/insurgent/angry neighbour

It sucks, and its a damn shame when innocents die

moreso when their deaths were the result of lies

 

[Glirk Dient]

It doesn't help that the Iraqis packed civilians into/near military targets so we wouldn't know about it. Also note that the U.S. doesn't do body counts, so it will be difficult to get an accurate number for a while. I have seen a wide variety of numbers thrown around.

 

[CptStern]

It doesn't help that the Iraqis packed civilians into/near military targets so we wouldn't know about it.

:upstare: ...so 7000 people in the first few weeks of bombardment just so happen to be standing next to "military" targets? ..this boy's family must have been unaware that Iraqi military forces set up shop right next to his house ...his entire family paid the price because of those sneaky iraqis and their uncanny ability to set up military bases in the middle of the night

Also note that the U.S. doesn't do body counts, so it will be difficult to get an accurate number for a while. I have seen a wide variety of numbers thrown around.

:upstare: care to tell me how many iraqis died during the first war, oh and use an official american tally ...let me save you the trouble ...there isnt one. You'd think that after 14 years they'd be finished counting by now

 

[Raziaar]

moreso when their deaths were the result of lies

Their deaths were the results of a war, if i'm not mistaken. Let me check up on that and i'll get back to you, because i'm pretty sure thats what it was.

 

[CptStern]

Their deaths were the results of a war, if i'm not mistaken. Let me check up on that and i'll get back to you, because i'm pretty sure thats what it was.

nope ...lies sent 100's of thousands of coalition soldiers to invade iraq ...cause and effect raziaar

 

[Icewolf717]

If only 1% of that number is civilian, that's still 390 deaths.

However, I think it's fairly obvious that that percentage is much higher. Possibly even 100%, if the study only counts civilians.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm certain I've read somewhere that the majority of actual real terrorists currently in Iraq moved in after the start of the war. Supposedly they would not be classified as Iraqis in this study.

All the non-terrorist iraqi fighters are just people who are pissed at America taking over their country.
I'd be pissed too, given the circumstances. Not the the extent of violence, but people on all the sides of this conflict have shown the ease at which many will choose violence as a first resort.
I certainly don't agree with the insurgent's methods, but I can see why they would choose them.

you would want saddam as a leader?

 

[RabidMeatloaf]

I didn't know small arms were that dangerous!

Mine are quite small - but I have joined a gym and should be buff soon \o/

39,000 though...damn. We must be REALLY trigger happy.:sniper:

 

[Mechagodzilla]

you would want saddam as a leader?

Of course not, don't be stupid. But at the same time, I would not want the people trying to 'rescue' me to do so clumsily and dangerously while setting up their own permanent control over the area.
The basic fact of Saddam's evil should not give anyone who isn't Saddam a moral blank cheque.

In the opinions of most Iraqis (at least in a poll done in 2003 or 4), they're out of the frying pan and into the fire.
Is it good that Saddam's gone? Yes, obviously.
However, could he have been removed without the rushed 'plan' that flooded the country with terrorists, killed many thousands of civilians and absolutely forgot about reconstruction? I think so.

In a parrallel to recent events, I don't like hurrianes, but that doesn't mean I should fall in love with FEMA simply because it isn't a hurricane.

 

[JellyWorld]

\o/

Whats that sign supposed to mean?

 

[Sulkdodds]

It's a tiny little man, throwing his arms up in the air in sheer joy. I used to think it was a vagina way back when.

 

[Raziaar]

It's a tiny little man, throwing his arms up in the air in sheer joy. I used to think it was a vagina way back when.

I always thought it was the latter as well.

 

[Glirk Dient]

:upstare: ...so 7000 people in the first few weeks of bombardment just so happen to be standing next to "military" targets? ..this boy's family must have been unaware that Iraqi military forces set up shop right next to his house ...his entire family paid the price because of those sneaky iraqis and their uncanny ability to set up military bases in the middle of the night

They didn't happen to be standing next to military targets. Were you not paying attention to the news? The iraqi Military parked military vehicles next to houses, hostpitals and the such and also filled military targets with civilians so people like you would whine about it.

:upstare: care to tell me how many iraqis died during the first war, oh and use an official american tally ...let me save you the trouble ...there isnt one. You'd think that after 14 years they'd be finished counting by now

Exactly, the U.S. military doesn't do body counts.

 

[CptStern]

They didn't happen to be standing next to military targets. Were you not paying attention to the news? The iraqi Military parked military vehicles next to houses, hostpitals and the such and also filled military targets with civilians so people like you would whine about it.




Exactly, the U.S. military doesn't do body counts.

you dont understand sarcasm do you?


anyways ...so like I've said ...7000 people just so happened to be next to parked military vehicles? all 7000? that seems kinda high for 3 weeks of bombardment dont you think?



poor kid, if only he realised saddam had parked a humvee next to his crib




edit: that was the least graphic image I could find

 

[ktimekiller]

Lets blame america! And no, im not being sarcastic, im serious, stupidity of Mr.Bush seems limitless.

 

[little.rebel]

39,000 though...damn. We must be REALLY trigger happy.:sniper:

believe it or not, firearms are really that dangerous

 

[Kmack]

Exactly, the U.S. military doesn't do body counts.

ignorance is...