On Michael Crichton

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New Scientist, 5 March 2005

Jeremy Leggett is chief executive of Solarcentury, the UK's largest independent solar electric company, and a member of the UK government's Renewables Advisory Board. State of Fear by Michael Crichton is published by Harper Collins

WHEN I visited America during my time working for Greenpeace International in the 1990s, time and again people would say to me "we really don't approve of the way your organisation blew up that French ship", or words to that effect. It happened once at the end of a meeting with a lawyer in Philadelphia. He was defending Lloyds of London against a suit filed by Exxon after the Valdez oil spill. He wanted to thank me kindly for all the excellent free technical information I had furnished him with in support of his defence, but he really hadn't enjoyed having to talk to me because my people had murdered somebody in New Zealand.

How could it be, I used to wonder, that Americans got the French secret service's sinking of the Greenpeace ship the Rainbow Warrior the wrong way round so consistently? I encountered the phenomenon in no other country. I never knew why for sure and still don't. Whatever the explanation, it happened so many times to me and my colleagues that I had to conclude it was something cultural.

Michael Crichton's new novel State of Fear offers a window into that culture. It launches an assault on the scientific underpinnings of a problem many believe to be the single biggest threat to a liveable future on the planet. The story is this: massively resourced and clinically efficient environmentalists-turned-terrorists generate a tsunami that is timed to boost their case that global warming exists. These ecomaniacs are foiled by a "professor of risk analysis" with links to the US military. That's it. End of story. John Le Carré this is not.

While travelling the world in a Gulfstream jet, our professor launches lengthy harangues at his travelling companions, especially a young lawyer who works for a thinly disguised version of the Natural Resources Defense Council. The lawyer slowly converts, in the face of the evidence, to the view that global warming is a myth. The book comes replete with graphs - most of them historical temperature records from individual locations showing no warming or cooling - and footnotes referring to scientific papers we are to gather that Crichton has read and understood.

By tilting at science and climate scientists in the course of a threadbare story Crichton conjures up bizarre scenes one after the other. Look at some examples. Gorgeous environmentalist-agent seduces wave-machine PhD student in Paris, masked men burst in and inject him in post-coital state with slow-working paralysing agent, environmentalist fires gun to drive men off, then bestows more sexual favours on him, then walks him along the Seine by Notre Dame as drug begins to take effect, and dumps his incapacitated and by now thoroughly confused body into the river. Right.

Billionaire environmentalist, his lawyer, and head of NRDC-equivalent fly to Iceland in a private jet to persuade a glaciologist they are funding to withdraw a paper saying he has found a rare glacier that is advancing not retreating, or else. As they would.

Machine-gun-toting ecoterrorists trick a large group of families into having a picnic in a national park, fire rockets into clouds upstream of them to create a fierce storm, generating a flash flood intended to kill the children live on network news (they have also tricked a TV crew into attending) just before a conference on abrupt climate change. And so on.

The novel reads as though it has been written in a rush by a committee of comic-culture schoolboys, and nowhere more so than where the all-important conference is concerned. It is run by the NRDC-equivalent secretly collaborating with "ex-Greenpeace and Earth First" ecoterrorists who plan to create three immense climatic disasters during the climate conference. Apart from the aforementioned dud tsunami and abortive flash flood, the professor-hero Crichton mouthpiece (with not a CIA or FBI operative in sight) foils them by blasting the mother of all icebergs off the edge of Antarctica.

To anyone who has worked in an international environmental organisation, State of Fear will evoke feelings that veer between hilarity at this picture of their peers, and deep disgust. Crichton's book ends with a long message from the author explaining his philosophy when it comes to the mirage of global warming, an essay on "Why politicised science is dangerous", and an annotated bibliography that elaborates on his grand theme.

The place to start in trying to understand this horrific assault on sanity is this bibliography. It is indeed extensive, and shows that the author has read the basic texts on the human-enhanced greenhouse effect, apparently without being impressed. What does impress him is every un-peer-reviewed neoconservative-funded pamphlet and book you can think of. And he doesn't hesitate to say so. As for the 12 volumes of Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC): on this painstaking compilation of the work of hundreds of climate scientists around the world, we find not a word of editorial comment.

In the hectoring by the hero as he flies the world in his jet, there are sideswipes at the IPCC. Let me give you a flavour. Flying back from Antarctica to Los Angeles, the all-knowing hero has a lot of pages in which to harangue the suggestible lawyer. Climate scientists are skilled at manipulating the media, he argues. "Don't forget the last minute changes in the IPCC report."

What did this "huge group of bureaucrats and scientists under the thumb of bureaucrats," as Crichton calls them, do wrong?

"The 1995 report announced with conviction that there was now a 'discernible human influence' on climate. You remember that?"

"Vaguely."

"Well, the claim of a 'discernible human influence' was written into the 1995 summary report after the scientists themselves had gone home.

"Originally, the document said scientists couldn't detect a human influence on climate for sure, and they didn't know when they would. They said explicitly 'we don't know'. That statement was deleted and replaced."

This is the stuff of Greenpeace blowing up the French. I was in Madrid when the scientists agreed what they agreed in 1995. Here is how I described it in my eyewitness account of the first decade of the climate negotiations, The Carbon War (Penguin, 1999).

More than a hundred of the world's best climate scientists sit in the room, chaired by the head of the UK Met Office. I was there. All these people, Crichton asks us to believe, are working in cahoots with politicians, concerned only for their funding (which will somehow be higher if they are alarmist about global warming). With them are a handful of stressed-out environmentalists and a swarm of fossil fuel lobbyists and their proxies: oil ministry officials from Saudi Arabia and Kuwait exercising their right to be scientists for the day.

The oil lobbyists openly ferry written instructions to the Saudi and Kuwait delegates. Despite constant interventions by the latter aiming to torpedo the process, the text agreed at the end of the meeting, by consensus, reads "the balance of evidence suggests a discernible human influence on global climate." But the header, "significant new findings since IPCC 1990," has gone, negotiated away under the pressure of time to appease the oilmen, along with other strongly-worded text.

The head of the Saudi Arabian delegation, Mohammed al-Sabban, later told Nature that the report "is now balanced and cautious enough not to mislead policymakers". Nature pressed him about his motivations for seeking the sweeping changes in drafting "he" had. He responded: "Saudi Arabia's oil income amounts to 96 per cent of our total exports. Until there is clearer evidence of human involvement in climate change, we will not agree to what amounts to a tax on oil."

A senior researcher from the US National Center for Atmospheric Research, in contrast, asked towards the end of the meeting if he could have his name removed from the report, so blatant had been the manipulation by American oil and coal-industry lobbyists.

"Through it all," I wrote in The Carbon War, "the lead author of the detection section, Ben Santer of the Lawrence Livermore Lab, had been in the thick of the discussions and enforced redrafting. It was he who had to deal with many of the carbon club and proxy brickbats. This he did in a dignified and patient manner. At the end of the meeting, Santer was duly told to go back to the original full report and make appropriate changes to match the changed Policymakers' Summary. The carbon club would be able to turn even this simple instruction into a grenade."

A grenade that was to explode recurrently over subsequent years as the neocon oil-lobby got to work. Now the lie is regurgitated in popular fiction by one of the world's bestselling authors. Thus is history written in our modern world.

"Nobody knows how much warming will occur in the next century," Crichton writes in his endnotes. "I would guess the increase will be 0.812436 °C. There is no evidence that my guess about the state of the world one hundred years from now is any better or worse than anybody else's." Really? The climate models run at the Met Office, NCAR, NASA, the Livermore Lab, and all the other governmental and university climate laboratories may be estimates at the end of the day, but they are, at least, constrained estimates. What else could have pushed most of the world's governments to the view that unmitigated global warming is sufficiently dangerous for the Kyoto protocol to be needed, not to mention ongoing painful negotiations to strengthen it?

The last line of the author's message reads: "Everybody has an agenda. Except me." What are we to make of this? If Crichton has no agenda, why all the pages of tortured justification of his view that global warming is tosh and most environmentalists are fraudsters and - we must imagine - wannabe terrorists? Is he trying to be funny, or is he serious? Almost everybody has an agenda when it comes to global warming. And why not? With a liveable future on the planet at stake if the vast majority are right and the neocons and their allies wrong, isn't that just a little understandable?
“A senior scientist asked to have his name removed from the report, so blatant was the lobbying”

If he is joking, given those stakes, then shame on his cavalier arrogance. If he is serious, what does that tell us about the immensity of his delusion?

I once shared a debating platform with an American who would enjoy Crichton's novel. Before an audience of coal industry executives, he painted environmentalists as defeated communists who had turned green. He urged the executives to mobilise against we evil-doers, and get as much coal to market for burning as fast as they could.

I had a quick shot at persuading him he was wrong. I told him about the concerned professionals who were then jumping ship to Greenpeace in growing numbers, doing their best to bolster the credibility of the idealistic kids and gentle veterans. I told him how proud I was never to have witnessed a transgression of Greenpeace's code of non-violence. I told him how some of my colleagues were actually quite conservative in their political views, and how a public party-political statement was a serious offence in the organisation.

I remember his face as I tried to inform him of the reality: the blankness in his eyes as he framed his dismissive response. An ideologue, I thought. He needs his enemies to be as he imagines them. That man's name was Harlan Watson. He is now a US negotiator at the international climate negotiations.

Crichton's book will no doubt hit a ready audience. There are enough contrived gunfights between the Crichton-esque professor and his ecoterrorist enemies to please even members of the National Rifle Association. Hence the film will be made, no doubt, and it will be a hit too. Millions will thus be drawn into the paranoid world that Crichton throws up: programmed to believe that climate scientists worried about global warming must somehow be manufacturing alarm because they lust after research grants, that nothing an environmentalist says can be true, and that the boundaries between environmental groups and the new generation of terrorists are blurring.

________________________

It's a long one.

For anyone with a NS subscription wishing to read it in a more comfy format, clicky

http://www.newscientist.com/article...bscriberType=1&doLogin=true&id=mg18524891.600
 
Jeremy Leggett is chief executive of Solarcentury, the UK's largest independent solar electric company, and a member of the UK government's Renewables Advisory Board

Shocking that he would be worried that people would stop being terrified of global warming. What possible motive could he have?
 
Yeah, I know :) I wasn't saying the article wasn't biased, but there are pieces of observational evidence in there that you simply can't ignore. He was there in 1995, not Crichton.

I could have gotten rid of the paragraph that states where this man comes from; don't assume I'm unobjective.
 
don't assume I'm unobjective.

Not saying you are, just poking a little fun at the people who think Critchon is paid off by the oil companies and such.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for renewable energy sources and ending pollution, I just disagree with the philosophy behind it.

Global warming is yet another issue siezed upon by the media before anyone knows all the facts. Even the best scientists in the world have no means of accurately depicting it's patterns. The world has been "ending" because of global warming since the early '70's.

I'm not disputing the greenhouse theory, but at the same time I think we call all agree that an oil spill is an enviromental disaster right? So if I put a teaspoon of oil into the ocean, will that destroy the ecosystem? No? It is the same thing with global warming. We are applying a theory that is correct in idea, to a situation that could possibly be as minor as a drop of oil in the ocean. Look at termites. By weight there are 10 times as many termites on the planet as humans. They also produce a lot of methane, which happens to be a much more potent greenhouse gas. Termites have been around for MILLIONS of years. In all of those millions upon millions of years, they haven't caused a blip in the atmosphere, yet some how human beings have supposedly destroyed it in 100 years?

In 50 years, when science has advanced far enough to compile the data, if there are any signs of global warming, that's great bring it up then. Until then the enviromentalists should go back to saving the whales or something.
 
GhostFox said:
I'm not disputing the greenhouse theory, but at the same time I think we call all agree that an oil spill is an enviromental disaster right? So if I put a teaspoon of oil into the ocean, will that destroy the ecosystem? No? It is the same thing with global warming. We are applying a theory that is correct in idea, to a situation that could possibly be as minor as a drop of oil in the ocean. Look at termites. By weight there are 10 times as many termites on the planet as humans. They also produce a lot of methane, which happens to be a much more potent greenhouse gas. Termites have been around for MILLIONS of years. In all of those millions upon millions of years, they haven't caused a blip in the atmosphere, yet some how human beings have supposedly destroyed it in 100 years?

That's a flawed argument, because termites only produce around 20m tonnes of methane a year; in the UK alone 537,000,000 tonnes of the stuff was produced. ( 1997 figures; couldn't find newer )

and it's off topic anyway, we were discussing the article
 
because termites only produce around 20m tonnes of methane a year

Multiply that by 10 million years. And remember that methane is a much more potent greenhouse gas.

On the article, it just seems like more of the enviromental establishment attacking anyone who disagrees with global warming. You can almost hear the fear in the authors words that people will read SoF and decide to start doing their own research.
 
GhostFox said:
Multiply that by 10 million years. And remember that methane is a much more potent greenhouse gas.

First point - You think the methane, when produced, sticks around in the atmosphere ad infinitum? GCSE Biology, buddy...

Second point - I already showed you that the U.K alone produces far more than 20 million tons a year of methane, disregarding CO2 emissions.

GhostFox said:
On the article, it just seems like more of the enviromental establishment attacking anyone who disagrees with global warming. You can almost hear the fear in the authors words that people will read SoF and decide to start doing their own research.

But what of the actual content? This is a man publishing an article in a well-respected mainstream source. Don't disregard what the man is saying.
 
You think the methane, when produced, sticks around in the atmosphere ad infinitum? GCSE Biology, buddy

I didn't say that....just apply what I said to concerns over human emissions and I think you'll see my point.

But what of the actual content? This is a man publishing an article in a well-respected mainstream source. Don't disregard what the man is saying.

More then anything he attacks Critchon's fictional parts of the book. Much of the article is spent discussing how he thinks Critchon is a hack at writing. Way to wallop us with the science.
 
GhostFox said:
I didn't say that....just apply what I said to concerns over human emissions and I think you'll see my point.

You implied that the combined emissions of 20m methane a year over 10m years should have produced global warming. Yup, you did say that.

Genuinely don't understand the second point, probably just me :) could you spell it out?

GhostFox said:
More then anything he attacks Critchon's fictional parts of the book. Much of the article is spent discussing how he thinks Critchon is a hack at writing. Way to wallop us with the science.

The book is clearly trying to hammer something into the reader; it clearly incapsulates what Crichton believes - it's also clear what Crichton is implying with the situations in the book. So the fictional parts of the book are pretty relevant. The article itself is called Dangerous Fiction.

Another point - what do you make of the whole 1995 summit thing. This guy was an eyewitness there. Crichton said stuff that simply wasn't true.
 
All processes involving the converting/using of energy in biology cause methane (eg digestion, decomposition). The methane reacts with oxygen in the atmosphere almost straight away. Creating water and carbon dioxide. The problem with burning coal, oil and gas is that it comes from a source that hasnt been in the carbon cycle for millions of years. It is introducing "new" carbon dioxide, whereas natural processess change carbon dioxide into sugars (then some turns into methane) then back into carbon dioxide.

As for proof of gloabal warming, the average temperature has been increasing since the industrial revolution, nobody argues whether or not the world is heating, the arguement is centred around explaining the increase in temperature, some claim it to be increased carbon dioxide, others claim its part of the earths natural warming and cooling cycles. The fact that its getting hotter than at any point in recent (few million) years, and the world was much hotter back when dinosaurs walked the earth, (remember why its called fossil fuels) seems to indicate that increased carbon dioxide is heating the world. How this will affect the climate and Earths inhabitibility is debatable, but its unlikely to be benificial.

I'd just like to add that I'm no expert. I may well be a victim of missinformation and I suggest you take what I said to be the general feeling among scientists as reported in the scientific press. If you can find or know of conflictin theories or facts disproving me, please feel free to stomp over these statements but dont flame me.
 
Also;
GhostFox said:
Jeremy Leggett is chief executive of Solarcentury, the UK's largest independent solar electric company, and a member of the UK government's Renewables Advisory Board


Shocking that he would be worried that people would stop being terrified of global warming. What possible motive could he have?

Fears about global warming have existed for far longer than any solar electric company. I think its far more likely that he went into that buisness because he was afraid of a world that doesnt decrease CO2 ommisions. Its not like solar makes that much money, or for that matter ever will unless there are some staggering technological advancements. Wheras someone who works in the fossil fuel industry would have lose billions if there were ommision restrictions.
 
Genuinely don't understand the second point, probably just me could you spell it out?

The point of my implication is that nature has been trying to destory the atmosphere for a billion years. What makes people so sure we can do it in 100?

So the fictional parts of the book are pretty relevant

That is just his opinion. I certainly felt that the fictional aspect of the storyline was completely seperate and irrelevent to the sceintific aspects.

nobody argues whether or not the world is heating

That is actually the subject of much debate. Do a search. You will find many sources showing no change or even cooling to the planet.

The fact that its getting hotter than at any point in recent (few million) years

That is factually incorrect. There have been many centuries hotter then the 20th.
 
PickledGecko said:
Also;


Fears about global warming have existed for far longer than any solar electric company. I think its far more likely that he went into that buisness because he was afraid of a world that doesnt decrease CO2 ommisions. Its not like solar makes that much money, or for that matter ever will unless there are some staggering technological advancements. Wheras someone who works in the fossil fuel industry would have lose billions if there were ommision restrictions.
The problem is solar power is more expensive and less effective so it's not even really a credible alternative, but it looks good and it's somehting environmentalists can hold up as a bulletpoint in a presentation, too many developing and poor nations rely on fossil fuels for solar energy to even be considered as a viable alternative, and when it comes down to it, cutting energy consumption isn;t viable either if you want to keep or improve the quality of life you have
edit: BTW i thoroughly enjoyed the book and found his counter-arguements to global warming extremely stimulating and it led me to even do some research on his point about glaciers expanding versus melting, and while there are many glaciers that are shrinking there are also many that are expanding, it's just a natural phenomenon, just like global warming and cooling, it happens naturally over time
 
The problem is solar power is more expensive and less effective so it's not even really a credible alternative, but it looks good and it's somehting environmentalists can hold up as a bulletpoint in a presentation

While I agree with you in principle, there are some interesting possibillities using solar power. The most promising being solar panels on the moon linked to the earth via microwave transmitters. The moon just takes up space anyway, and if enough panels were assembled on it, it could easily provide all the power the planet ever needs.

However that is quite a ways off, so I will agree that solar tech. implemented on earth is very limited.
 
GhostFox said:
The point of my implication is that nature has been trying to destory the atmosphere for a billion years. What makes people so sure we can do it in 100?

Cheers for clearing that up.

Because we are releasing millions of years' worth of organic carbon in the space of a few centuries.
 
GhostFox said:
While I agree with you in principle, there are some interesting possibillities using solar power. The most promising being solar panels on the moon linked to the earth via microwave transmitters. The moon just takes up space anyway, and if enough panels were assembled on it, it could easily provide all the power the planet ever needs.

However that is quite a ways off, so I will agree that solar tech. implemented on earth is very limited.
never heard of that before, but that actually would be a good idea, thanks for bringing it up, maybe after we get commercial space shuttles they can start working on this
 
Because we are releasing millions of years' worth of organic carbon in the space of a few centuries.

Yet it could still be a drop of oil in the ocean. The earth's atmosphere 1000 years ago only contained trace amounts of CO2. It still contains only trace amounts of CO2. Did you ever consider the fact that maybe we couldn't release enough CO2 to harm the atmosphere if we tried?
 
Icarusintel said:
the endorsement of the kyoto protocol kills this in my opinion, as great as everyone says it is kyoto does jack shit, the thing is they don;t say what exactly the warming of the ocean is going to do, for all we know it could be beneficial

But GhostFox keeps arguing we have little influence in the global weather. I proved him wrong.

Kyoto is messy. I think that if it improves our chanches, or even if we believe it will, somehow, in the future (not consensually) it's worth a shot. I don't think we should wait and see what happens.

it's like crime, aight ? You don't let go the Unabomber with a C4 bar just to see if he does something.
 
But GhostFox keeps arguing we have little influence in the global weather. I proved him wrong.

You proved nothing. There is no point in getting into source wars, becuase I am sure I can find many sources debunking that one, and you can find ones debunking those, etc.
 
GhostFox said:
Yet it could still be a drop of oil in the ocean. The earth's atmosphere 1000 years ago only contained trace amounts of CO2. It still contains only trace amounts of CO2. Did you ever consider the fact that maybe we couldn't release enough CO2 to harm the atmosphere if we tried?

You're right; to a certain extent. But the convergence of evidence in stuff like ocean temperature simulation ( see above ) is really too significant to ignore. This kindof stuff isn't going to go away, we've had the most advanced computers in the world working this stuff out for decades.

There are basic sums behind global warming too, though;

http://www.climate.org/topics/climate/index.shtml

But even this site shows that the data available is limited.

So I'm agreeing with you up to a point - I'd just rather be safe that sorry, and cirumstantial and convergence of evidence is right now saying we're going to be very sorry if we don't check out consumption of resources.
 
Tony Blair seems to think Global Warming is serious threat... I wouldn't consider Blair a "Green Tree Hugging Hippy Environmentalist" though.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3654042.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4269723.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4246271.stm

He continued: "I believe people know there is a real issue here.

"There is a residual debate here still - is this part of a natural cycle or not? - but it seems to me the evidence is so clear now I would describe it as the biggest long-term challenge the global community faces.

"My personal view is there's little or no doubt about it.

"Even if there were a residual doubt, any sensible precautionary policy would say the consequences of it being right are so severe it's best to change behaviour.

"People have a natural instinct about this. A massive amount of pollution cannot be right."

And I'd believe him more than Michael Crichton (although he was wrong about WMD).
Crichton's a good read, but his pseudo-science has been proved wrong before...e.g. They since proved (after Jurassic Park) Dino DNA would have decayed, so there's no hope of replicating dinosaurs in that sense.

He tried to put some of these views across in the Novel "The Lost World"
For example, one of his fictional characters (Dr Jeff "The Fly" Goldblum Malcolm maybe) was talking about the hole in the ozone isn't so bad as it's cracked up to be. Lots of creatures thrive on Ozone, and the killing off of mankind would be beneficial to these animals. On this subject, my atmospheric physics professor agrees no Ozone = no life on earth.
Ah, I see a clue in this...


This is my view:
I suspect Crichton of being the biggest, most extreme and radical environmentalist of them all. He wants the human race to heed his words, ignore our emissions, and die out from extreme climate change, leaving all the nice little furry animals in a utopian world without us! :p

Certainly worth an investigation at least.
 
Sprafa said:
But GhostFox keeps arguing we have little influence in the global weather. I proved him wrong.

Kyoto is messy. I think that if it improves our chanches, or even if we believe it will, somehow, in the future (not consensually) it's worth a shot. I don't think we should wait and see what happens.

it's like crime, aight ? You don't let go the Unabomber with a C4 bar just to see if he does something.
I have to go with GhostFox on this one, Michael Crichton brings up the big fact that a lot of research is worded to satisfy the person funding it, and really, it's one scientist's word against another and qualifications don;t exactly mean a whole lot
Kyoto is a nice little happy-feel good measure which makes everyone think we're heading in the right direction, but it still lets countries that are developing pump out more and more C02, like China, which actually hurts the chances of stopping global warming, and even if kyoto worked and everyone got involved the amount it will lower the temperatures and C02 levels are barely noticeable
anyway, some major NATURAL disaster will befall mankind, like a huge ice age that is bound to happen soon (not because of global warming, just the fact that we're due) before mankind will ever have the chance to experience a disater from global warming
 
...a hundred million...the average temperatures of the whole planet were about 10-15 °C warmer than they are now
Source
If fossil fuels are carbon sinks, ie, creatures from 1million years ago died and fell to the bottom of the sea and was stopped from decomposing into carbon dioxide and water and temperatures vary so much between now and then, I think its a pretty good sign that re-releasing these greenhouse gases is going to produce higher temperatures. Assuming a direct relationship, once we have burned all the coal, oil and gas, thats an increase of 10-15°C.

Of course there are other possible contributors for such a drastic drop in temperature, a large amount of carbon is locked away in certain types of rock an minerals, but I think its obvious that releasing so much carbon could easily increase global temperatures by a few °C.

Also, bear in mind;
...during the last interglacial period (120,000 years ago) when the average temperature was 1-2°C warmer than today, sea level was about 6 meters higher than today.
Source

(Disclaimer: I don't have time to check my sources. If you have a problem with them, I'll happily look over any evidence you can find that counters my sources.)
 
Icarusintel said:
I have to go with GhostFox on this one, Michael Crichton brings up the big fact that a lot of research is worded to satisfy the person funding it, and really, it's one scientist's word against another and qualifications don;t exactly mean a whole lot
Kyoto is a nice little happy-feel good measure which makes everyone think we're heading in the right direction, but it still lets countries that are developing pump out more and more C02, like China, which actually hurts the chances of stopping global warming, and even if kyoto worked and everyone got involved the amount it will lower the temperatures and C02 levels are barely noticeable
anyway, some major NATURAL disaster will befall mankind, like a huge ice age that is bound to happen soon (not because of global warming, just the fact that we're due) before mankind will ever have the chance to experience a disater from global warming

1. I agree that Kyoto isn't the best possible solution, but it's better than doing sweet F.A, as your president is doing. If he comes up with something better, great, but I don't see him working on the legislation.

2. If you're not gonna substiate your claims, then there's no point in stating them.
 
I'd just rather be safe that sorry

I completely agree. Which is the point of my arguments. Blind adhearence to the enviromentalists will kill the enviroment in the long run. That is why I am against Kyoto. It is a piece of fluff that will do nothing to help the enviroment, only make the enviromentalists sleep better at night.

If we are not careful, the global warming issue could become DDT or GE foods all over again.
 
GhostFox said:
Blind adhearence to the enviromentalists will kill the enviroment in the long run. That is why I am against Kyoto. It is a piece of fluff that will do nothing to help the enviroment, only make the enviromentalists sleep better at night.

They won't sleep better at night knowing the US is opting out :upstare:

But yeah, I get your point, and I agree :) I just worry that nothing else will be done; and with Bush's track record, let's face it, I've got a point :D
 
and with Bush's track record, let's face it, I've got a point

I'm not supporting Bush's position. I simply wish someone would say "You know what, let's take the possibility of global warming out of this argument, and let's just clean up the planet simply because we want to."
 
*looks down at Levi jeans* :upstare:

GhostFox said:
I'm not supporting Bush's position. I simply wish someone would say "You know what, let's take the possibility of global warming out of this argument, and let's just clean up the planet simply because we want to."

Be realistic, not idealistic. It's not going to happen. Like you said, great if it did, but I'd rather stick to something with a better chance of success
 
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