One more thread about "toned down" enemy AI...

[Claws]

You guys keep saying that Valve said the AI was toned down during the presentation. Can someone please give me a link where this was mentioned officially by Valve employees? A lot of BS gets mixed with up facts in these forums and I'd like to see where this was mentioned. Do not reply if you don't have a source.

 

[Gunner]

Hey kid! I'm a computer!!!

 

[BWMASTER]

try searching on this forum

 

[Claws]

For example take this quote from one PvtRyan:
"Ever wondered why they react strangely? Because they dont expect the player to move like he does, the damage multiplier has decreased and they do very little damage against Gordon. The video's are more of a show-off of the game capabilities than to actually show the gameplay. In HL1 you would have been long dead if you played like on the E3 video's."

Where was this mentioned? Is this guy talking out of his ass? I've been following this game closely ever since the crow bar add showed up and nowhere does it talk about dynamic AI changes due to changes in damage variables.

BMWMASTER, there are many threads about bad AI behavior and I've looked through at least 4-5, none had any official info, just people speculating and automatically confirming that the AI was toned down, without any sources. I'm rather insulted that you assumed I'm some ignorant fool who posts without reading the available information.

 

[koopa]

Part of it probably comes from this:

[15:47] <valve|david> Were the I-beams and dumpster in the trap town demo scripted or physics + AI? They were all AI, we just hinted for the soldiers to stand in opportune spots so they could get smashed by the heavy physics objects.

I'm pretty sure there are other official statements on the AI.

 

[nw909]

/me dies uber hyper times 9000 X!

 

[MaDMaXX]

er, this has been asked and proven a few times now, also, do you not find it daft that the soldiers just stand still, when they moved in hl1?

 

[Claws]

Koopa, David's comment simply means that the enemies were placed at positions where they are susceptible to these traps. There is no need to assume that the AI was toned down, or that it dynamicllay changes due to the altered damage variables.

 

[Claws]

Originally posted by MaDMaXX
er, this has been asked and proven a few times now, also, do you not find it daft that the soldiers just stand still, when they moved in hl1?

Where? Proven by fans maybe, show me a source pleeeeeaaasee!

 

[Feath]

Originally posted by Claws
You guys keep saying that Valve said the AI was toned down during the presentation. Can someone please give me a link where this was mentioned officially by Valve employees? A lot of BS gets mixed with up facts in these forums and I'd like to see where this was mentioned. Do not reply if you don't have a source.

It's called Common Sense.

You see, we look at the Combine Soldier AI in the videos and then we look at the AI in the first Half Life and then the AI of your Allies. We notice that both of these are better than the Combine Soldier AI in the Videos.

And from that, we conclude that the AI in the videos was either toned down or not complete. Either way, it wasn't representative of the final version.

I can't find any source that says that Gordon won't have a magically hamster that can talk to him. But using our Common Sense we can pretty much assume he doesn't.

 

[koopa]

Originally posted by Claws
Koopa, David's comment simply means that the enemies were placed at positions where they are susceptible to these traps. There is no need to assume that the AI was toned down, or that it dynamicllay changes due to the altered damage variables.

I read more into it than that. From what I remember of traptown, the AI looked pretty stupid. I assumed it was toned down and that David was admitting it.

The dynamic AI bit is probably just some guy getting his wires crossed. IMHO, a lot of the stuff in the videos isn't toned down AI, but crappy AI - naturally, most people don't want to believe that. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[Feath]

Originally posted by koopa
I read more into it than that. From what I remember of traptown, the AI looked pretty stupid. I assumed it was toned down and that David was admitting it.

The dynamic AI bit is probably just some guy getting his wires crossed. IMHO, a lot of the stuff in the videos isn't toned down AI, but crappy AI - naturally, most people don't want to believe that. I hope I'm wrong.

When you were meant to judge the AI of Half Life 2, you weren't meant to judge by looking at the "Stand Still" Combine Soldiers. You were meant to look at your Allies.

I don't why everyone is just ignoring the AI of your Allies. They acted pretty intelligently.

 

[koopa]

Re: Re: One more thread about "toned down" enemy AI...

Originally posted by Feath
It's called Common Sense.

You see, we look at the Combine Soldier AI in the videos and then we look at the AI in the first Half Life and then the AI of your Allies. We notice that both of these are better than the Combine Soldier AI in the Videos.

And from that, we conclude that the AI in the videos was either toned down or not complete. Either way, it wasn't representative of the final version.

Yes! I can't believe anybody dared to ask the question! Common Sense tells us that companies never, ever mislead about their games, and that everything is always as good as it's hyped up to be.

 

[PvtRyan]

Originally posted by Claws
For example take this quote from one PvtRyan:
"Ever wondered why they react strangely? Because they dont expect the player to move like he does, the damage multiplier has decreased and they do very little damage against Gordon. The video's are more of a show-off of the game capabilities than to actually show the gameplay. In HL1 you would have been long dead if you played like on the E3 video's."

Where was this mentioned? Is this guy talking out of his ass? I've been following this game closely ever since the crow bar add showed up and nowhere does it talk about dynamic AI changes due to changes in damage variables.

BMWMASTER, there are many threads about bad AI behavior and I've looked through at least 4-5, none had any official info, just people speculating and automatically confirming that the AI was toned down, without any sources. I'm rather insulted that you assumed I'm some ignorant fool who posts without reading the available information.

I'm not talking out of my ass, it would be just a logical response from the enemy when facing an uncommon situation.
In the video's Gordon just stoof still, in any other game, so will the enemy when you do that. So it COULD be indirectly linked to toned down damage multiplier.

 

[koopa]

Originally posted by Feath
When you were meant to judge the AI of Half Life 2, you weren't meant to judge by looking at the "Stand Still" Combine Soldiers. You were meant to look at your Allies.

I don't why everyone is just ignoring the AI of your Allies. They acted pretty intelligently.

I wish Valve would have told us this before hand, then we'd have all known where we were supposed to be looking.

One problem is that it's hard to know what's dynamic and whats scripted.

 

[Claws]

Re: Re: One more thread about "toned down" enemy AI...

Originally posted by Feath
It's called Common Sense.

You see, we look at the Combine Soldier AI in the videos and then we look at the AI in the first Half Life and then the AI of your Allies. We notice that both of these are better than the Combine Soldier AI in the Videos.

And from that, we conclude that the AI in the videos was either toned down or not complete. Either way, it wasn't representative of the final version.

I can't find any source that says that Gordon won't have a magically hamster that can talk to him. But using our Common Sense we can pretty much assume he doesn't.

No that's not common sense. That's blind faith. I don't like explaining things to you right now.

Anyway, the closest thing I found was this:

Q: Will the enemy hear sounds and then go to investigate them in single-player?

A: Yes. However it isn't a stealth game a la Thief.

Q: Say you put a table or something in front of a door or you climb over a wall of some sort, will a pursuing enemy follow you in the single-player game?

A: Yes.

Q: Will the enemy ever go on the offensive in a group and use flanking tactics and such in single-player?

A: Yes.

Q: If you use the manipulator to throw something. Will the enemy investigate the noise if they hear it and if they see it will they try to find the origin of where the object was thrown in single-player?

A: Yes.

Which still doesn't confirm that the AI was "toned down" like so many of you firmly believe.

 

[koopa]

Originally posted by PvtRyan
I'm not talking out of my ass, it would be just a logical response from the enemy when facing an uncommon situation.
In the video's Gordon just stoof still, in any other game, so will the enemy when you do that. So it COULD be indirectly linked to toned down damage multiplier.

Unlikely, if you don't mind me saying so. I can't think of many games where the enemy stands still when you do - why would they do that?

 

[Feath]

Re: Re: Re: One more thread about "toned down" enemy AI...

Originally posted by koopa
Yes! I can't believe anybody dared to ask the question! Common Sense tells us that companies never, ever mislead about their games, and that everything is always as good as it's hyped up to be.

No Common sense tells us that if the AI just stands there and doesn't move, then obviously it is incomplete/toned down.

The question is stupid because people seem to be looking at the worst AI in the videos then thinking it's represenative of the final product.

Also, find me a source which says that the Combine AI was like it will be in the final version. You can't. We don't know either way, but by applying common sense we can conclude that the Combine AI wasn't running at full capacity.

I am basing this off these two things:

The Half Life 1 AI. Why would the AI for Half Life 2 be a lot worse than Half Life 1?

Your Allies AI. This was obviously better AI. Why would Valve Implement good AI for your some things and not for others?

 

[Claws]

PvtRyan, if something is logical, it doesn't mean it is true or fact. It is quite logical for me to assume that one you would have provided a link to an offical statement by now, however that is not fact.

 

[Feath]

Re: Re: Re: One more thread about "toned down" enemy AI...

Originally posted by Claws
No that's not common sense. That's blind faith. I don't like explaining things to you right now.

Anyway, the closest thing I found was this:


Which still doesn't confirm that the AI was "toned down" like so many of you firmly believe.

The AI didn't do any of those in the videos so obviously it was toned down (or incomplete at the time of recording).

 

[Dagobert]

Answer me this.

How do you know that the AI is easy if you haven't played it? Did you all record movies of you playing other FPS games and compare them?

Did any of you brainless kids consider that AI that looks dumb might not feel dumb when you play it??


Duh....Some people here are real bright, but the rest...shucks.

 

[koopa]

Re: Re: Re: Re: One more thread about "toned down" enemy AI...

Originally posted by Feath
No Common sense tells us that if the AI just stands there and doesn't move, then obviously it is incomplete/toned down.

The question is stupid because people seem to be looking at the worst AI in the videos then thinking it's represenative of the final product.

Well, many of you guys are looking at the best AI and saying that's representative of the final product, which makes even less sense.

My thinking is this:

1) Everybody claims great AI. AI is hard. So it pays to be sceptical.

2) After 5 years of development, Valve are only just sorting the AI out? That would be worrying. Normally the final period of the game would be testing, testing and more testing.

3) I'm not convinced the AI was any worse than HL1. I'm happy to believe that some maps are not fully pathed (or whatever tech they use now).

4) I still don't understand why you would ship the videos with *intentionally* bad AI. That makes absolutely no sense. Even Stalker (which is only at Alpha) has a good chunk of AI to show off in their demos.

 

[koopa]

Originally posted by Dagobert
Did any of you brainless kids consider that AI that looks dumb might not feel dumb when you play it??

No, because that doesn't make much sense. Why would it look dumb when watching it over someone's shoulder, but suddenly feel ultra clever when you sit in front of the keyboard?

 

[harhar]

shut up and wait for the game. You'll see the AI when you get the damn game.

 

[TheOriginalEvil]

Originally posted by harhar
shut up and wait for the game. You'll see the AI when you get the damn game.

I second that.

 

[Solidarnosi]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: One more thread about "toned down" enemy AI...

Originally posted by koopa


4) I still don't understand why you would ship the videos with *intentionally* bad AI. That makes absolutely no sense. Even Stalker (which is only at Alpha) has a good chunk of AI to show off in their demos.

Um, how many times does the community have to answer this? Seriously. Guys. Cm'on. Pull your heads out of your @$$3$ for a minute. Do you really think the friendly AI is going to use realtime pathfinding in order to assist you, while the nme's just STAND THERE LIKE THEY HAVE ROOTED THERE? Hey that's it I figured out what the Combine are THEY ARE PLANTS WITH GUNS! :x :x :x

Let's just IGNORE the flying manatee gunship that mows down most of your team, follows you everywhere while driving in the other part of the video, the manhacks that hunt you down, the zombies that KICK BARRELS at you if given the chance, the Combine soldiers that KICK IN THE DOOR to get at you - something that has been repeatedly said to be NOT SCRIPTED but rather the choice that the AI made in order to get at you.

:x :x :x again

 

[Feath]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: One more thread about "toned down" enemy AI...

Originally posted by koopa
Well, many of you guys are looking at the best AI and saying that's representative of the final product, which makes even less sense.

My thinking is this:

1) Everybody claims great AI. AI is hard. So it pays to be sceptical.

2) After 5 years of development, Valve are only just sorting the AI out? That would be worrying. Normally the final period of the game would be testing, testing and more testing.

3) I'm not convinced the AI was any worse than HL1. I'm happy to believe that some maps are not fully pathed (or whatever tech they use now).

4) I still don't understand why you would ship the videos with *intentionally* bad AI. That makes absolutely no sense. Even Stalker (which is only at Alpha) has a good chunk of AI to show off in their demos.

1) We have seen good AI in the Barricade videos. Look at your allies. Judge the AI from that.

2) They are testing, testing, testing. The AI may have been incomplete because they could've recorded the demos any time before E3. Remember E3 was in May, that gives them 4 months till they have to ship. They could've just finished the AI the day after E3. We don't know.

3) The Half Life 1 AI moved. The Combine Soldiers didn't move (except every so slightly in Traptown).

4) Maybe they didn't want the AI to wonder off and have the player spend 10 minutes fighting with the AI. They wanted to show various things off. If the player had to spend two minutes running after some Combine soldiers, it wouldn't have made a good video. Worse if the Combine Soldiers killed the player.

 

[Feath]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: One more thread about "toned down" enemy AI...

Originally posted by Solidarnosi
Um, how many times does the community have to answer this? Seriously. Guys. Cm'on. Pull your heads out of your @$$3$ for a minute. Do you really think the friendly AI is going to use realtime pathfinding in order to assist you, while the nme's just STAND THERE LIKE THEY HAVE ROOTED THERE? Hey that's it I figured out what the Combine are THEY ARE PLANTS WITH GUNS! :x :x :x

Let's just IGNORE the flying manatee gunship that mows down most of your team, follows you everywhere while driving in the other part of the video, the manhacks that hunt you down, the zombies that KICK BARRELS at you if given the chance, the Combine soldiers that KICK IN THE DOOR to get at you - something that has been repeatedly said to be NOT SCRIPTED but rather the choice that the AI made in order to get at you.

:x :x :x again

Precisely. People are surrounded by good AI in the videos and they immediately point at the bad AI and say "OMG THE AI SUCKS!!!!!!!1111".

It's like going to an Airshow, watching the jet fighters and everything. Then comes an old WWI plane and someone stands up and goes "Oh MY GOD, Planes are so slow and rubbish."

Bad Analogy.

 

[Claws]

Originally posted by harhar
shut up and wait for the game. You'll see the AI when you get the damn game.

Thank you, this is what I'm trying to say basically. So just as I thought, the "toned down" AI was never confirmed by Valve.

 

[Feath]

Originally posted by Claws
Thank you, this is what I'm trying to say basically. So just as I thought, the "toned down" AI was never confirmed by Valve.

They didn't need to, that's why.

 

[Claws]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: One more thread about "toned down" enemy AI...

Originally posted by Feath
Precisely. People are surrounded by good AI in the videos and they immediately point at the bad AI and say "OMG THE AI SUCKS!!!!!!!1111".

It's like going to an Airshow, watching the jet fighters and everything. Then comes an old WWI plane and someone stands up and goes "Oh MY GOD, Planes are so slow and rubbish."

Bad Analogy.

I'm not saying the AI sucks. I'm saying people who make shit up suck. Just because something is logical to you, does not automatically make it fact. The combine AI was horrible in most of the videos. It might've been unfinished, toned down (highly unlikely), or completely disabled. No one knows because Valve did not comment on it. If they did please give me a link.

I e-mailed Gabe several times regarding this issue and I've yet to receive any response.

 

[Feath]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: One more thread about "toned down" enemy AI...

Originally posted by Claws
I'm not saying the AI sucks. I'm saying people who make shit up suck. Just because something is logical to you, does not automatically make it fact. The combine AI was horrible in most of the videos. It might've been unfinished, toned down (highly unlikely), or completely disabled. No one knows because Valve did not comment on it. If they did please give me a link.

I e-mailed Gabe several times regarding this issue and I've yet to receive any response.

I'm just saying it's not an unreasonable assumption. It's not completely made up. We've judged the evidence and came to a reasonable conclusion.

 

[Solidarnosi]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: One more thread about "toned down" enemy AI...

Originally posted by Claws
I'm not saying the AI sucks. I'm saying people who make shit up suck. Just because something is logical to you, does not automatically make it fact. The combine AI was horrible in most of the videos. It might've been unfinished, toned down (highly unlikely), or completely disabled. No one knows because Valve did not comment on it. If they did please give me a link.

GDI they HAVE commented on the freakin' AI! They have told us EXACTLY how the AI works, in various articles that are available on the internet and NO I am not going to go looking for them for you, do your own damn research.

Why God why would the Combine soldiers be so obviously advanced in one part of the video (chasing you, shooting thru the windows, kicking in the door to get you) and suck at another part (standing around waiting to be shot)? These facts together make you come to the conclusion that the AI will be only bad? If you use logic based upon this planet and not Bizarro Earth you will realize that the enemy AI is toned down. Jeez.

 

[Claws]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: One more thread about "toned down" enemy AI...

Originally posted by Solidarnosi
GDI they HAVE commented on the freakin' AI! They have told us EXACTLY how the AI works, in various articles that are available on the internet and NO I am not going to go looking for them for you, do your own damn research.

Why God why would the Combine soldiers be so obviously advanced in one part of the video (chasing you, shooting thru the windows, kicking in the door to get you) and suck at another part (standing around waiting to be shot)? These facts together make you come to the conclusion that the AI will be only bad? If you use logic based upon this planet and not Bizarro Earth you will realize that the enemy AI is toned down. Jeez.

No, it has not been mentioned in any article. At least not in any American print magazine or any website. I have scans from 3 different American publications of the unvailing of HL2 articles. Also, you jump into the conclusion that I think the HL2 AI will be bad when the game is released, the same way you jumped into concluding that the AI was toned down. I'm not arguing about how bad the AI will be when the game is released. I just want to know where this "toned down" AI was confirmed. Pretty simple?

 

[Solidarnosi]

<---gives up
Obviously nobody but me even cares to bother arguing with you about it. If I happen across the quotes I'll stick them in here, but otherwise you keep believing that Valve made the AI worse than the game they made 5 years ago, yeah that makes perfect logical sense.

 

[Styloid]

I have some empathy for Claws.... it's true that I've only read about all the good stuff about the AI that seems to contradict the movies and we at least have official word that the soldiers were 'hinted' to go get killed (which, to me, suggests that many AI actions were overridden to occur), but I personally haven't read a quote where the AI is said to be 'toned down'.

No big deal though...:cheers:

 

[Ro@cH]

Ok I haven't read this whole thread but i've got a new remark about this quote: "[15:47] <valve|david> Were the I-beams and dumpster in the trap town demo scripted or physics + AI? They were all AI, we just hinted for the soldiers to stand in opportune spots so they could get smashed by the heavy physics objects."

Replay the traptown vid and watch closely: when gordon throws the grenade under the dumpster, it tips over, starting to fall down. He looks over the edge of the roof, while the dumpster is falling. You can see a combine soldier run away from under the falling dumpster, then he quickly runs back, just in time to get under it and get squished. I always though the quote above meant: we've put the combine soldiers in such a place, that when u set off a trap they're very, very likely to get killed by it. You see the 4 combine soldiers that get killed by the T-beam? They're patrolling in opportune spots. But my new theory is that the soldiers are scripted to go to one exact location when something happens (eg the dumpster goes past an invisible barrier). Of course this won't be like that in the final game, but it's just a new theory of mine.

 

[TheOriginalEvil]

I have some empathy for Claws

I'm sry man, LMAO.

 

[Solidarnosi]

I have emailed The Man Himself regarding the AI. If he deigns to answer I will post it. If not then Claws will just have to wait, play the game, and get his ass handed to him every time he steps around a corner expecting the Combine soldiers to just stand there staring.

 

[Claws]

I won't name names, but if you;re gonna talk, provide a link.

"Weve already talked about this a few times in other threads, and we mainly concluded that the AI was actually turned off for part of that movie.

Valve wouldn't let the AI be that bad when they release the game."
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"you're all dumb.. in some of the videos.. the ai is on.. (the soldier kicking the door in.) .. in some they are off. ( a guy just standing there waiting for you to grenade him to help defend barney.) ...

what we do know: in hl2 there won't be any parts of the game with the ai off.. this was just off in some sections of the game to show the good guys ai better."
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"Oh course they were toned down so they dont actually kill the guy with the camera "
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"They were made that way specifically for the demo. Presumably, in the actual game, they will move around."
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"They will be more agile, now they can move and fire at the same time."
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"it has been stated that the AI was toned down/off for those demos.

In other words, we've yet to see it in action. Also note how he takes 1pt damage per bullet, seriously, you think its like that in game?"
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"They toned down AI just to deviate us and keep it a surprise. I'm already scared..."
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"the game was set on super easy...."
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"The ai was turned down in the bugbait vid, maybe this one aswell?"
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"The AI was turned down a few notches for these videos. Gabe said so himself." (Gabe said so himself huh?)
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"Most of the AI features was turned off, this has been explained 5000024823492849829 times."
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"Well in the E3 demo, they had god mode turned on so the AI reacts very differently to an invincible opponent."
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"This crops up about once a week. It has been asked before.

The AI was toned down for the E3 movies. This has been comfirmed. They won't just stand there in the full game."
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"It's not that the AI knows when the player has god mode on or not, but it's always like this in any FPS games: try it in HL1 you'll see they'll mostly stand there and reload without taking cover. It's more like the AI is non existent when you turn god mode on. At least that's the way it seems to me"
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I can go on... But really, there is no point. It seems I'm the only one not working for Valve...

Stop making shit up people.