One step closer to tyranny

[Korgoth]

Link To Article

Very disturbing... It seems the department of justice has written a memo in 2002 allowing the torture of SUSPECTED terrorists. The same department of justice, headed by John Ashcroft who was appointed by George Bush.
So lets say I was to hold an anti war march in my hometown. Now not only can I be detained without proof, trial, and held indefinately. Now they can torture and maim me without repercussion!
The way this administration seems to write the rules to fit its taste is very, very disturbing. Call me paranoid, call me whatever you want, but don't you think it is a step to far to revoke the most basic of human rights?
Illegal search and seizures, "indefinate" detention, and now non-illegal toture of anyone deemed a "terrorist"... Just how broad is the meaning, may I ask?

Also, allow me to point you to this [thread=24321]THREAD[/thread] which to my suprise, saw little to know attention. I think it deserves a read, and If you want to it, reply here. (as not to pull up an old thread)

Unique among the nations, America recognized the source of our character as being godly and eternal, not being civic and temporal. And because we have understood that our source is eternal, America has been different. We have no king but Jesus.
-John Ashcroft

 

[Fat Tony!]

Meh even if its true it wont happen. America has a bad enough image as it is.

 

[Korgoth]

Its from a respectable enough news site, so I'm sure its true (at least somewhat)...
But the point of this message is to bring awareness. There should be no reasonable doubt that this is true and shouldn't even exist. If we've allowed it to go this far, where do we go from here? Concentration camps and ethnic cleansings? Where do we put our foot down and say enough is enough?
Who is worried about our "image" anymore? Thats gone to hell, what about America's future? What about the people that live here. Why are we allowing our rights to dissapear under our noses? Why should I even have to worry?

 

[CptStern]

ya that's kinda of disturbing but I'm not entirely surprised.

A grassroots movement is getting out the message that the patriot act is an infringement of rights. There's even some cities that have said they will be patriot act free

patriot act free cities

as to the informant...hmmm not surprised that he was ignored...GWB needed an excuse to invade Iraq

check this out...some of the members include Rumsfeld, Cheney, Jeb Bush

new world order

from their mission statement:

"we need to accept responsibility for America's unique role in preserving and extending an international order friendly to our security, our prosperity, and our principles. "

they dont even disguise the fact that they want to take over the world

 

[Mr-Fusion]

Allowing the torture of suspected terrorists was obviously an extreme measure to try an avoid further September 1 style attacks. When they did capture someone who might know something, not being able to get information from them could have cost the lives of thousands more.

It's simply a case of the good of the many outweighs the good of the few. If it means a few hundred suspected terrorists are tortured so it prevents a chemical attack etc, then it's justifiable.

That's the logic. But i totally disagree with it. Surely the U.S could figure out non-painful ways to extract information from people. With the amount of funding that goes towards new and more efficient ways of killing people, surely they could devise some drug that could help in this area.

Either way , if you don't like it. Vote for someone else. Though with the rigging of the last election even that can't promise much.

 

[Korgoth]

Allowing the torture of suspected terrorists was obviously an extreme measure to try an avoid further September 1 style attacks. When they did capture someone who might know something, not being able to get information from them could have cost the lives of thousands more.

It's simply a case of the good of the many outweighs the good of the few. If it means a few hundred suspected terrorists are tortured so it prevents a chemical attack etc, then it's justifiable.

That's the logic. But i totally disagree with it. Surely the U.S could figure out non-painful ways to extract information from people. With the amount of funding that goes towards new and more efficient ways of killing people, surely they could devise some drug that could help in this area.

Either way , if you don't like it. Vote for someone else. Though with the rigging of the last election even that can't promise much.

Well if you leave the power to "them" to determine who the "terrorists" are then they can pretty much do whatever, whenever they want... Thats the scary bit.

 

[Fat Tony!]

Seems disguised enough for me i dont see how that makes them want to take over the world

 

[CptStern]

Allowing the torture of suspected terrorists was obviously an extreme measure to try an avoid further September 1 style attacks. When they did capture someone who might know something, not being able to get information from them could have cost the lives of thousands more.

It's simply a case of the good of the many outweighs the good of the few. If it means a few hundred suspected terrorists are tortured so it prevents a chemical attack etc, then it's justifiable.

That's the logic. But i totally disagree with it. Surely the U.S could figure out non-painful ways to extract information from people. With the amount of funding that goes towards new and more efficient ways of killing people, surely they could devise some drug that could help in this area.

Either way , if you don't like it. Vote for someone else. Though with the rigging of the last election even that can't promise much.

they are using torture because they can get away with it....the geneva accords doesnt allow torture of POW's but since the US calls them "enemy combatants " as opposed to prisoners of war the accords do not apply. Also under this loophole the US can hold someone indefinately without a trial...POW's are released after a war (according to the geneva accords)

 

[Korgoth]

I didn't say "take over the world" but turn America into a military state, maybe...
Wonder if Iraq will come back and liberate us a few years from now?

 

[hasan]

Wonder if Iraq will come back and liberate us a few years from now?

lol .. who knows?

Allowing the torture of suspected terrorists was obviously an extreme measure to try an avoid further September 1 style attacks. When they did capture someone who might know something, not being able to get information from them could have cost the lives of thousands more.

Everybody who tortures prisinors uses this kind of excuse .. ok ok I know you said you disagree with it, I just wanted to throw my 2 cents.

If we've allowed it to go this far, where do we go from here? Concentration camps and ethnic cleansings? Where do we put our foot down and say enough is enough?

well, during WW2 japanese people in America and even Canada where held in camps ..
I think if another sept. 11 happens all arabs would be held in concentration camps, and I'm serious.

ouch .. just read this from http://www.newamericancentury.org/index.html

The Project for the New American Century is a non-profit educational organization dedicated to a few fundamental propositions: that American leadership is good both for America and for the world; that such leadership requires military strength, diplomatic energy and commitment to moral principle; and that too few political leaders today are making the case for global leadership.

This is hardly ever disguised ...
"American leadership is good for the world. such leadership requires military strength." <<< This out of context .. don't quote me and say I made up my own statements .. read the full quote above

to cut it out of context further more ..

"American leadership for the world requires military strength"

:|
mommy!! I'll go and hide somewhere ..

 

[Fat Tony!]

Heh no one could control the world, even the romans couldnt

 

[CptStern]

It's big brother, New World Order, Fascism, Tyranny all disguised as democracy

 

[Sprafa]

It's big brother, New World Order, Fascism, Tyranny all disguised as democracy

Those things are not related.

IMO, Big brother is good. It's the only way to eliminate crime. I hope in the future we can have a globalized Gov. with Big Brother powers.

Peace and security.

If you ask me - What about privacy = **** it. Who gives a shit? Unless corruption installs in the system, we would only be safer.

But torture....oh well.... "When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes a duty".

 

[CptStern]

Those things are not related.

IMO, Big brother is good. It's the only way to eliminate crime. I hope in the future we can have a globalized Gov. with Big Brother powers.

Peace and security.

If you ask me - What about privacy = **** it. Who gives a shit? Unless corruption installs in the system, we would only be safer.

But torture....oh well.... "When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes a duty".

big brother is good? I dont want the government dictating what I can and cant do (within reason)...also BB was about thought control

 

[Sprafa]

big brother is good? I dont want the government dictating what I can and cant do (within reason)...also BB was about thought control

BB in the sense of loss of privacy and total Information to the State. Not brainwashing and shit like that as in the actual book....

 

[CptStern]

yes but I want my privacy...I dont want government interfering with my life

 

[Razor]

The amount of United Nations Human Rights abuses America gets away with already makes China look like Greenland.

 

[hasan]

ok this might sound stupid .. but what's Big Brother? and what does it have to do with the cops?

 

[CptStern]

it's a book by George Orwell and it's about a future distopia where your thoughts are monitored "for your own good"

 

[hasan]

monitoring people's thoughts? what the ..?
I am not a left wing guy or anything .. I don't care about gays rights or anything you know ..
but monitoring people's thoughts? that's just so stupid! I'd rather go to City 17 .. oh wait, maybe they monitor thoughts there too?

 

[CptStern]

yes actually like many of the books of it's time it was a statement against communism as was his other more famous book Animal Farm. Read the book it's a classic, also read Brave New World (ALdous Huxley) Player Piano (kurt vonneghut), and the Fountainhead (Ayn Rand)

 

[ferd]

If something like that would happen here ( Belgium ) ppl would respond. We have about 5 big political parties, every choosen politician is being criticised (not always negative) ALL the time. And if they do something wrong, they have to step down right away. How come we dont let politicians **** with us, and an entire "freedeom-loving" ppl like America doesn't give a crap, and finds it easier to believe what they are told.

 

[ferd]

It's a proven fact, that ppl need privacy, almost like food...

 

[hasan]

It's a proven fact, that ppl need privacy, almost like food...

Life, Dignity, Privacy .. etc are fundemental rights .. we shouldn't even argue them.

Plus if you argue with this argument, they will tell you it's a proven fact that invading privacy saves lives .. etc.

 

[mrchimp]

well, during WW2 japanese people in America and even Canada where held in camps ..
I think if another sept. 11 happens all arabs would be held in concentration camps, and I'm serious.

How much would you like to bet on that?

I mean, I think gambleing is a waste of money but this isn't a gamble.


Also what do you mean the Japs were held in camps? Do you mean POW's were held in camps? That Japanese civilians living in America were all rounded up and put in camps? That they were put in concentration camps?

To my knowledge America had no concentration camps actually in the USA and that only POW's and people suspected of spying were put in camps (which was probably every Jap living in America except the embassy workers).

Now the thing is being put in a camp in America at that time was not such a bad thing as many German and Japanese soldiers will vouch for, it was also necessary to win the war and was not the same as the Germans putting Jews in concentration camps or being put in a Japanese concentration camp for that matter.

But that's irrevelant anyway, it was half a century ago, your useing anything you can against America even if it's something that they actually handled pretty well. Especially if you compare it to what there enemys were/are doing.

 

[CptStern]

How much would you like to bet on that?

I mean, I think gambleing is a waste of money but this isn't a gamble.


Also what do you mean the Japs were held in camps? Do you mean POW's were held in camps? That Japanese civilians living in America were all rounded up and put in camps? That they were put in concentration camps?

To my knowledge America had no concentration camps actually in the USA and that only POW's and people suspected of spying were put in camps (which was probably every Jap living in America except the embassy workers).

Now the thing is being put in a camp in America at that time was not such a bad thing as many German and Japanese soldiers will vouch for, it was also necessary to win the war and was not the same as the Germans putting Jews in concentration camps or being put in a Japanese concentration camp for that matter.

But that's irrevelant anyway, it was half a century ago, your useing anything you can against America even if it's something that they actually handled pretty well. Especially if you compare it to what there enemys were/are doing.

yes they had concentration camps in america and canada....David Suzuki (famous canadian) grew up in one. And guantamano bay is a concentration camp...you're thinking it has to have gas chambers for it to be concentration camps, it doesnt. Oh and whole families were put in the camps...I dont know how a 5 year old can spy but kids were put in with their parents

oh btw stop using the word "Jap" it's as derogatory as "Nip"

 

[Razor]

Yes, all Japanese people that were in America just after Pearl Harbour were rounded up and placed in concentration camps in America.

 

[Lethal8472]

I guess you could say America is a stolen country...we kinda took it from the Brits. :E

 

[marksmanHL2 :)]

I never knew that....


Well, I dont think its quite like that anymore thank god.


I mean if for example they tried something like that in Britain today there would be bloody riots on the streets. I would be one of them because I cant stand racism or any kind of prejudice....



Thats one reason why I have huge arguements with some members of the elderly that seem to think that voteing for the British National Party is a good idea.....
Even the indepenant party piss me off because they dont understand that our ecconomy needs to be a part of Europe. They just keep saying Europe is failing us when it blatently isnt. Dumb assholes want power for the sake of having power. AND IT PISSES ME OFF!!!




Sorry, went of on a tangent there..... :rolling:


Edit: Yeah damnit... Give us back our country!!!! (And all your money!!! )

 

[Lil' Timmy]

just in case there is any confussion, the Orwell book is "1984". in that book, "Big Brother" is the supreme ruler of the totalitarian government known as "the Party". also, people's thoughts couldn't be monitored directly, but the "Thought Police" could monitor the sights and sounds from inside people's homes.

 

[The Mullinator]

I wonder how history will view the US once it is finally gone (no country will ever last forever). Will it be seen as an enemy to the advancement of civilization (which is really humanities only long term goal) or as a major player in the advancement of human civilization.

 

[OoGoff]

I read this as, One step closer to Tranny. I was like ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!

 

[Fat Tony!]

I wonder how history will view the US once it is finally gone (no country will ever last forever). Will it be seen as an enemy to the advancement of civilization (which is really humanities only long term goal) or as a major player in the advancement of human civilization.

I think opinion would differ, in my opinion I think America has helped, at least scientificly anyway. Science and technology has improved a lot thanks to the US but i think Japan wins on the technology front, the US spend too much on their army which could be channeled into technology and such. But whatever, everything we say not is at least slightly biased

 

[Razor]

I think opinion would differ, in my opinion I think America has helped, at least scientificly anyway. Science and technology has improved a lot thanks to the US but i think Japan wins on the technology front, the US spend too much on their army which could be channeled into technology and such. But whatever, everything we say not is at least slightly biased

A lot of the American technology that is developed the military does filter down into everyday and commercial usage, wars and the threat of wars always pushes technology to its limits.

I also agree, opinion will differ, but i think it really depends on what the future of mankind holds for us. If the future holds a very anti-money, anti-commericialization type of future e.g. communism or a form of it, the American ideals and the American way might be viewed as being counter productive and against the future civilizations opinion of right and wrong.

 

[hasan]

Now the thing is being put in a camp in America at that time was not such a bad thing as many German and Japanese soldiers will vouch for, it was also necessary to win the war and was not the same as the Germans putting Jews in concentration camps or being put in a Japanese concentration camp for that matter.

would you bet on it?! (that's a rhetoric question cuz I never bet on money .. ) anyway .. considering that "now" is better than "50 years ago", I would suppose that conditions in "Abu Gharib" or "Goantanamo" are a heck of a lot better than the conditions in the American concentration camps "50 years ago".

ok let's not compare this to that .. let's just stay in the past: If you drop two nukes on civilian population I can't see why you wouldn't treat prisoners like slaves at the least. keep in mind that these two nukes were the only nukes they had ..

your useing anything you can against America

I didn't make up that story ..

Actually America wasn't stolen from the British, it was stolen from the native indians ..

 

[The Mullinator]

Canada was also stolen from the native americans, Britain was stolen from the Celts, Iraq was stolen from the jews by the Assyrians (very long ago). Don't give such a stupid argument when almost every country in existance was stolen from some group or another.

 

[Razor]

Canada was also stolen from the native americans, Britain was stolen from the Celts, Iraq was stolen from the jews by the Assyrians (very long ago). Don't give such a stupid argument when almost every country in existance was stolen from some group or another.

Europe was stolen from the Neandethals (spelling) by the Homosapiens from Africa.

 

[seinfeldrules]

Sigh, do you all think that Americans would truly allow a tyrant to rule? Even the ACLU cannot find ONE SINGLE example in which the Patiot Act has bent the law.

 

[Private Hawke]

america is baws
and were just as bad in my opinion

 

[seinfeldrules]

would you bet on it?! (that's a rhetoric question cuz I never bet on money .. ) anyway .. considering that "now" is better than "50 years ago", I would suppose that conditions in "Abu Gharib" or "Goantanamo" are a heck of a lot better than the conditions in the American concentration camps "50 years ago".

Are you saying the conditions in Nazi Concentration Camps were similar to the ones in Gitmo or Abu Gharib? If so, you need to take a nice long vacation and do a little thing I like to call a 'reality check'.

Also, if America is such a 'bad place', why do more people immigrate to this country than any other nation on the globe? If anywhere else is more 'advanced' than America I invite you to show me the place. America is the undisputed land of opportunity.