Oppressing fundamentalists

[seinfeldrules]

you're either dumb as dirt, or you're so steemed in indoctrination that you cant even surface ...or as I suspect, you're in the military.

That was possibly the rudest, most hurtful comment I've seen on these boards. Way to aim for the knees stern, shows a lot of character.

 

[CptStern]

how do you figure? How did you misinterpret that statement? ...and I even had a typo! "steeped" not steemed (mmmmm steamed clams) I wasnt being sarcastic when I said he could be in the military ..it wasnt a jab at all

 

[qckbeam]

I don't read anything offensive in Cpt.Sterns remark, although I do see how it could be misinterpreted. He wasn't mocking anyone, just making a point. People who are in the military do tend to separate things into black and white, and they do tend to be over-the-top in patriotism and defense of their country; That's judging from the men and woman serving in the military I've met in real life, and through the boards at least (not speaking for everyone). It's to be expected given the training.

 

[Scoobnfl]

That was possibly the rudest, most hurtful comment I've seen on these boards. Way to aim for the knees stern, shows a lot of character.

I didn't take offense to it at all. I enjoy the emotion and true belief that stern interjects into each post. We just happen to disagree on most everything. I detected no personal attack, and thus was not offended.


Stern when you're fighting groups such as the leftist guerillas in central and south america, it is necessary to engage them in their tactics. When you are fighting people that will kill to accomplish their goals you will have to kill them to preserve and accomplish your own goals. That is just reality plain and simple. If the desired end result could be accomplished through peaceful negotiation then it would have already been done. The fact is neither side is willing to do that.

Yes the graduate list of the SOA does contain some horrendous individuals, the leftist guerilla movement does too, but the schools in which they are trained at in Cuba do not make their lists of graduates known.

This is just a plain and simple case of fighting fire with fire.


On a side note Stern, if you were attacked, or facing attack from an individual whose desire was to kill you; Would you fight back? Would you kill them if it came down to you or them? Could you do it?

 

[seinfeldrules]

you're either dumb as dirt, or you're so steemed in indoctrination that you cant even surface ...or as I suspect, you're in the military.

He is relating "dumb as dirt, or so steemed in indoctrination that you cant even surface" to being in the military. Thats how I interpreted it.

People who are in the military do tend to separate things into black and white,

That doesnt mean they are as 'dumb as dirt' or so blinded by patriotism they cant think for themselves.

 

[burner69]

Being trained up to believe unquestioningly the voice of authority does cloud your judgement - believe me, I know people in the army - and they'll admit it themselves.

 

[seinfeldrules]

Being trained up to believe unquestioningly the voice of authority

Do you disobey what your boss tells you to do while working?

 

[Scoobnfl]

He is relating "dumb as dirt, or so steemed in indoctrination that you cant even surface" to being in the military. Thats how I interpreted it.

I see.

His calling me dumb as dirt did not bother me. I've been called worse by better, I'm sure.

 

[Scoobnfl]

Being trained up to believe unquestioningly the voice of authority does cloud your judgement - believe me, I know people in the army - and they'll admit it themselves.

I agree, that training is supposed to do that so when in a combat situation orders are given and follwed and things don't break down into the discussion level.

Questioning authority is fine in a protest or on a college campus, h.s. classroom, etc....... but not in the military. Unless like what happened at Abu Ghraib is occurring, then it not only should be questioned, it must be questioned.

 

[burner69]

Do you disobey what your boss tells you to do while working?

There's a large difference between being told to smile at customers, and "Left, right, left, right - squuuaaaaad, HALT! Move to the left in threes, leeeeeft turn!" or (and this was told to me by a military instructor) "If you are ambushed, rather than running in and charging in like we used to, you should get on one knee, fire into the ambush then, starting with the far left man, one man at a time, break right. No one has died doing this" (bullsh*t)

And yes, if my boss told me to do something I did not believe was right, like invade a country over WMDs, I wouldn't do it.

 

[seinfeldrules]

And yes, if my boss told me to do something I did not believe was right,

Would you quit your job if you felt a fellow employee was being treated unfairly? What if your boss orders you to stay late one day, when the rest of the workers are allowed to leave on time? Your boss gives you more orders than just to smile at customers. I need X accomplished by Y time. Your response- "Yes sir".

 

[Maxi]

Would you quit your job if you felt a fellow employee was being treated unfairly? What if your boss orders you to stay late one day, when the rest of the workers are allowed to leave on time? Your boss gives you more orders than just to smile at customers. I need X accomplished by Y time. Your response- "Yes sir".

That is slightly different, staying late one evening isn't that bad, you havent recieved any training like in the military when you get a job. What he said is true, you do tend to seperate things into black and white, be over patriotic, follow everything the leader, commander tells you. It's what you're taught to do in the military, denying it only proves you aren't educated.

 

[CptStern]

I don't read anything offensive in Cpt.Sterns remark, although I do see how it could be misinterpreted. He wasn't mocking anyone, just making a point. People who are in the military do tend to separate things into black and white, and they do tend to be over-the-top in patriotism and defense of their country; That's judging from the men and woman serving in the military I've met in real life, and through the boards at least (not speaking for everyone). It's to be expected given the training.

yes, yes and yes ...and I can now see how it could have been misinterpreted ...but seinfeldrules you probably knew that already and you're just trying to stir up the pot

I didn't take offense to it at all. I enjoy the emotion and true belief that stern interjects into each post. We just happen to disagree on most everything. I detected no personal attack, and thus was not offended.

thanks

Stern when you're fighting groups such as the leftist guerillas in central and south america, it is necessary to engage them in their tactics.

but isnt that no better than the so-called terrorists? in many of these cases the US supported regimes that overthrew democratically elected repesentatives ..the incoming regime usually had a history of deplorable human-rights abuses.

the CIA When you are fighting people that will kill to accomplish their goals you will have to kill them to preserve and accomplish your own goals. That is just reality plain and simple. If the desired end result could be accomplished through peaceful negotiation then it would have already been done. The fact is neither side is willing to do that.

but the tactics, such as providing hit-lists for death squads in El Salvador, or overthrowing democratically elected governments, are that of tyrants, despots, and dictators ...in a nutshell... state sponsored terrorism

Yes the graduate list of the SOA does contain some horrendous individuals, the leftist guerilla movement does too, but the schools in which they are trained at in Cuba do not make their lists of graduates known.

yes but that doesnt vindicate the US on training dictators and murderers. Google the CIA torture manual: Human Resource Exploitation Training Manual

This is just a plain and simple case of fighting fire with fire.

nope, much more than that: you overthrew democratically elected leaders, you propped up despots and tyrants ..murders that killed thousands, you directed the use of "terror" for your own gains, you provided intelligence that led to widespread arrests, torture and murder

On a side note Stern, if you were attacked, or facing attack from an individual whose desire was to kill you; Would you fight back? Would you kill them if it came down to you or them? Could you do it?

this is not the same thing ...there are countless examples of cia intervention where the majority of victems are civilians.

 

[seinfeldrules]

and I can now see how it could have been misinterpreted ...but seinfeldrules you probably knew that already and you're just trying to stir up the pot

If you didnt mean what I thought, then I honestly dont know what you meant.

That is slightly different, staying late one evening isn't that bad, you havent recieved any training like in the military when you get a job. What he said is true, you do tend to seperate things into black and white, be over patriotic, follow everything the leader, commander tells you. It's what you're taught to do in the military, denying it only proves you aren't educated.

You receive training for any job you get into... I'm not denying that you follow orders in the military, but you dont realize that you follow orders in the private sector as well. Maybe I could make my case stronger here by calling you a dumbass, but that would be stooping to your level, wouldnt it?

 

[CptStern]

If you didnt mean what I thought, then I honestly dont know what you meant.

that's ok, the comment wasnt aimed at you ...butt out

 

[seinfeldrules]

that's ok, the comment wasnt aimed at you ...butt out

It was aimed at military personnel, and I take offense to them being called "dumb as dirt". Why do you stick up for gays? When people make racist/bigoted remarks those arent pointed at you. So no, I wont butt out.

"You're either very gay, or very liberal."

 

[CptStern]

oh do shut up and stop trying to derail the topic ...I already explained myself I dont have to answer to you

this is incessant with you ...you ramble on and and on and on about one insignificant point sending the thread into a downward spiral where the only 2 contributors are you and I

 

[seinfeldrules]

I already explained myself I dont have to answer to you

I merely asked you what you meant, and you told me to butt out and shut up. No need to get angry about it.

 

[Maxi]

I'm sorry that you can't think freely. I don't follow orders when I have a job, if I get a task that i'm displeased with I tell my boss that I don't want to do this, and I give a reason as to why.

You can't compare a field general to a boss for a company, they are two entirely different things. People in the military are trained to follow orders, SOME people in the private sector get trained as to HOW to do their job, not how to follow orders. If you can't see the difference i'm sorry for the horrible childhood you had to endure.

 

[Bodacious]

I would just like to point out the main difference between the "death squads" of south america and those of Iraq.

Stern, your claim is that the south american death squads are state sponsored terrorists. I don't disagree, they were being as they were against the government at the time.

In the case of Iraq, however, these "death squads" aren't anti-governemnt, they are anti-isurgency. Remember who the insurgents are, terrorists who do not fight in a uniform or under a flag and are murderous barbarians.

Besides, you don't know that these death squads are going to kill innocents. You have already passed judgement on them based on a biased label. Shame on you.

 

[HunterSeeker]

Remember who the insurgents are, terrorists who do not fight in a uniform or under a flag and are murderous barbarians.

Insurgent != Terrorist. (For you non-programmers != means does not equal to)

An insurgent is a person who defends his/her country against military invasion using unconvential tactics.

A terrorist is a person who attempts to accomplish a goal (usually a political) using voilence and fear.

Also, why does it matter if you fight under a flag or not?

 

[Bodacious]

The media wrongly uses the term insurgent. That is why I pointed out who the insurgents were.

Read here about unlawful Combatants

 

[CptStern]

I would just like to point out the main difference between the "death squads" of south america and those of Iraq.

we're not comparing the two

Stern, your claim is that the south american death squads are state sponsored terrorists. I don't disagree, they were being as they were against the government at the time.

no no, the state-sponsored terrorism I was referring to has to do with the US aiding governmental forces subjugate their own people

In the case of Iraq, however, these "death squads" aren't anti-governemnt, they are anti-isurgency.

again you're mixing up my meaning ..I wasnt talking about iraq, but rather south/central america ...but if you want to apply death squads to the iraq situation in the context of state-sponsored terrorism then it applies here because the cia is trying to do just that in iraq

Remember who the insurgents are, terrorists who do not fight in a uniform or under a flag and are murderous barbarians.

ummmm, no ...

insurgent:

adj : in opposition to a civil authority or government [syn: seditious, subversive] n 1: a person who takes part in an armed rebellion against the constituted authority (especially in the hope of improving conditions) [syn: insurrectionist, freedom fighter, rebel] 2: a member of an irregular armed force that fights a stronger force by sabotage and harassment [syn: guerrilla, guerilla, irregular]

it's a matter of labeling ..at one point the Taliban were called "heros and freedom fighters" by the US government, today I highly doubt the US government refers to them that way anymore

Besides, you don't know that these death squads are going to kill innocents. You have already passed judgement on them based on a biased label. Shame on you.

? what are you talking about? I was talking about south/central america ..there WERE civilian casualties caused by the death squads ..you cant dispute that ..google Oscar Romero

 

[Scoobnfl]

Stern, you're blurring the CIA of Dulles, McCone, Raborn, Helms, Schlesinger and Colby with that aftr 75,and it's a clearly different animal today than it was then. We don't overthrow govts. like we used.

Although I do not think that it was bad to do so. Fighting communism and the death that it would have brought to those countries makes the death tolls incurred acceptable.

 

[Scoobnfl]

it's a matter of labeling ..at one point the Taliban were called "heros and freedom fighters" by the US government, today I highly doubt the US government refers to them that way anymore

untrue.

The taliban never were praised as heros.

? what are you talking about? I was talking about south/central america ..there WERE civilian casualties caused by the death squads ..you cant dispute that ..google Oscar Romero

the leftist guerillas had death squads too and this is how we fought and defeated them.

 

[CptStern]

I cant agree here ...some of the countries I mentioned had democratic governments

 

[Scoobnfl]

I cant agree here ...some of the countries I mentioned had democratic governments

think of it as an expansion of the Monroe Doctrine.

 

[Maxi]

Did someone miss my post intentionally? I think so...

 

[seinfeldrules]

I'm sorry that you can't think freely. I don't follow orders when I have a job, if I get a task that i'm displeased with I tell my boss that I don't want to do this, and I give a reason as to why.

Then you get fired. Dont tell me otherwise, nobody will put up with an employee who only works on what he wants to.

"Perform this task for me Johnson"
"Nah, I dont want to, let me work on what I want to instead"
"Sure, you're paid to do whatever the hell you want anyways"

If you can't see the difference i'm sorry for the horrible childhood you had to endure.

Again with the attacks? Do you know how to debate in a civilized manner? It doesnt take much thought to throw out a simple insult.

 

[burner69]

Then you get fired. Dont tell me otherwise, nobody will put up with an employee who only works on what he wants to.

"Perform this task for me Johnson"
"Nah, I dont want to, let me work on what I want to instead"
"Sure, you're paid to do whatever the hell you want anyways"

Again with the attacks? Do you know how to debate in a civilized manner? It doesnt take much thought to throw out a simple insult.

The difference here is, if my boss told me to kill somebody, and I didn't agree with it, I would not do it - and he would be arrested for telling me to do so.
In the military you are told to do somthing, and whether you agree with it or not, you must do it - or YOU get arrested.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

I would'nt call the Terrorists Fundamentalists; course, I think Fundamentalist has lost its own definition over time.

For the thread author, oppressing Fundamentalists does'nt nessecarly make them inherently stronger. Infact, noones entirely fundamentalist anyway unless labeled as so -- .