Other titles with real time lighting?

Crusader, you are missing the point.


Surak teaches that we must Learn to discern that which seems to be, and that what you wish it to be, from what truly is.


There is nothing wasted in Doom III. Everything is used in the most efficient way. While an object in the world may be stationary, the light that casts the objects shadow may not be.

Therefore, in half-life2 you may have a small room with a box, and a partition jutting from the wall. Each casts a shadow, but because the partition is not a dynamic object its shadow is static, while the small box casts a projected shadow map based on the light source. If the light source is changed in any way, then the boxes shadow is altered accordingly, yet the partitions shadow remains static. This is far from the consistency that Carmack has achieved in his new engine.


The ultimate goal is to leave shadow maps behind alltogether, for it is the next logical step towards ultimate realism and consistency. And this is the time to do it. Consider, if you will, all of the next generation games using similar lighting systems to Doom III. It is obvious many other developers feel the same.
 
Originally posted by burzum
But my personal opionion about this is, it sucks, because its DX9 = M$ only shit and not necassary.
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I was actually going to respect you post and tell you how wrong you are until I read that. You obviously know nothing about games. You are a complete idiot by saying something stupid like DX 9 is M$ shit and is not needed. Every game out there uses DX and almost every new game coming out will only use DX9. But yes, since its by microsoft we shouldn't use it because its evil and return to 2d games :dozey:.
 
I'm not afraid to admit that STALKER does look better at most points than HL2. But even Stalker hasn't got everything, stuff Source does have.


But even if X-ray is more advanced than Source, I like the general style of HL2 more than Stalker's, Stalker has some kind of paintish look to it, which is cool but not my style. :)

PS: HL2 DOES use normal mapping.
 
PLEASE
THINK OF THE CHILDREN
buy em all I say.
have cake, and eat it too

I mean logically, we all think Hl2 has the most "well rounded" engine otherwise we wouldnt be here. I consider it to be quite polished (in appearance and features) it suits my tastes visually, artistically and the engine sports all the next gen features I have been wishing to toy with.

simply, the other games out there (D3, FC, Stalker) all look excellent in their own right, but WE are here because THIS game (HL2) is our top pick.. otherwise your on the wrong forum :D
 
Originally posted by Sp0ck
MountainMan, your reply is highly unreasonable.
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No more "unreasonable" than the post I was responding to.
The bulk of his post is most certainly true...
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The "truth" in question being relative, of course.
[Referring to the Source engine.] If the light source is changed in any way, then the boxes shadow is altered accordingly, yet the partitions shadow remains static.
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From what I understand, there are portions of the game that feature more dynamic light and shadow than other parts where such effects are unecessary.

Once again, the Source engine is perfectly capable of dynamic lighting/shadowing. Valve has simply chosen to use it prudently rather than bringing your systme to its knees by overworking it with unecessary effects.
 
Whatever spock, I'd like to know how often a moving light is seen in doom 3. There are two possible answers, one is that, as you might expect, there are hardly any, in which case it is ludicrous to render everything dynamically. The second is that ID have put a million and odd moving light sources to show off their technology.
I think the option to choose between which objects should have their shadows cast dynamically and which don't will always be the more efficient option, so it is you, sir, who is missing the point of my post entirely.

Oh, and please don't try and act smart in your reply, I've been studying all day and I don't have the patience to bandy words with idiots in order to prove their ineptitude.

I love how just beneath your wonderfully profound quotation of the teaching of Surak, you succumb at once to that which it first warns you against. If everything in the Doom 3 Engine is 100% efficient, I'll eat my favourite physicists hat. And I don't suppose that even you believe that to be the case.

Personally I care only about the end product of a games visual engine, if computers ever get advanced enough to produce photo-realistic environments, I won't care how the effect is produced, I'll just enjoy it.
 
I know this is off topic, and please forgive my ignorance... also please dont take this as a jab, as I am honestly putting forth a question:

who is Surak? is he one of the star trek guys?
like spock?
 
I don't have a clue, I assume he is some Vulcan or something...
 
Spock is a Vulcan correct?

if Surak is a Vulcan....
what the hell would Surak know about Doom3 or the inner workings of Hl2?

the reason why I ask is, you seem to refer to Surak as though it is the teachings you follow in life.. I have no problem with that, I wouldnt want people messing with me because I am christian.

however, "teachings" have their place, be it from your father, bible, or television show.

please dont get me wrong, Im not judging you nor anyone else, I just find it upsetting you would quote your beliefs as if trying to encroach them onto someone for not seeing things the way you do.

this isnt an arguement over logic, there is no fact, its all speculation... treat it as such.
 
Hehe, very true... I'm starting to rethink my earlier post, do you think it was too testosterone fueled? I'm getting more narky the older I get...
 
Originally posted by Mr. Redundant
Spock is a Vulcan correct?

if Surak is a Vulcan....
what the hell would Surak know about Doom3 or the inner workings of Hl2?
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It's illogical captain
 
Surak: Vulcan male who ushered in the Time of Awakening on Vulcan, thus founding a movement based on logic and peace.

note:Spock met a replica of Surak on Excalbia in 2269.


YOU'RE WELCOME *violently nodding head*
 
edited my post to illistrute further why I was curious, nothing personal.. its just he quotes "Surak" often and I would like to hear the reasoning behind it.

(edit) thanks Timmy
 
No more "unreasonable" than the post I was responding to.
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Your reply was unnecessarily harsh and condescending, and generally ignored the points he was attempting to convey in favor of reading into his post for what you wanted to see, which apparently is an "id-fanboy".

And the Truth is never relative, although occasionally it is erroneously perceived through a lens distorted with the expectations or beliefs of the mind which is assimilating the Truth.



Yes, Source is capable of producing projected shadow maps, but this is a rather primitive method when compared to the evolutionary steps taken by the engines which are introducing a unified lighting model into the genera. This is what Burzum was attempting to say in his post, that they are truly leagues apart and cannot be compared.

Its not that valve made the more prudent decision by using more primitive methods. They did for their purpose, for they wanted half-life2 playable on low end specs. But it is more beneficial to the genera, and to you the gamer, that other companies continue to push technology and drive the evolution of graphics in this genera.
 
Originally posted by burzum
Ermm....the most people in this thread here are still wrong or have no idea of what dynamic realtime lightening means.
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And this is the correct way to start a post Sp0rk? Looks to me like this kid took a high horse condescending tone in his post as well.
 
Originally posted by iamironsam
And this is the correct way to start a post Sp0rk? Looks to me like this kid took a high horse condescending tone in his post as well.
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He's letting emotion control his actions, not quite the way of a Vulcan, Romulan maybe.


If people are going to pretend to be ficitional characters in old shows, they could atleast research the role first right? :)
 
well, humans generally perceive vulcans as condescending and aloof..
 
Whatever spock, I'd like to know how often a moving light is seen in doom 3. There are two possible answers, one is that, as you might expect, there are hardly any, in which case it is ludicrous to render everything dynamically. The second is that ID have put a million and odd moving light sources to show off their technology.
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You failed to realize what i was attempting to say. This is a failure on my part as well, for i should have made myself more clear. I shall make another attempt.

While not every light source will move, a unified lighting model allows for such interaction, when a lighting model such as that found in the Source engine does not. Likewise, it also allows for a new light source, such as a flashlight, or in the instance where an additional light in the scene is turned on or off, to affect all objects in the scene, and not just the few objects which cast a projected shadow map.

Again, it is not important that this is done in every scene, what is important is that its possible.


I think the option to choose between which objects should have their shadows cast dynamically and which don't will always be the more efficient option
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You are free to think as you will, as am I. And if I think differently, i fail to see how this means I am missing your points.

I know precisely what you are saying, and in the case of halflife2 this type of lighting model is appropriate, for without it they would be unable to reach the players with the lower end systems. But it is not true that a unified lighting system is any less efficient.
 
Originally posted by iamironsam
Yah, I always thought they were a bunch of d!ckheads.
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Supertrooper vs Spock, feelings vs logic

who would win? :)
 
And this is the correct way to start a post Sp0rk? Looks to me like this kid took a high horse condescending tone in his post as well.
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One wrong doing is not justifiable by another.

While it is true that Burzum could have worded his post better, it is not the right course of action to reply in like manner.

Surak teaches us that there is no offence where no offence is taken.
 
supertrooper would feel bad about hurting spock, and, logically, spock would conclude that the pain of another is not serving the needs of the many in this case.

vulcan neck pinch, Spock by KO in 4 sec.
 
Originally posted by Sp0ck
Its not that valve made the more prudent decision by using more primitive methods. They did for their purpose, for they wanted half-life2 playable on low end specs.
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Yes, but remember, for this reason they didn't use the entire potential of the Source engine. That new Bloodlines game uses some features of the Source that HL2 does not. We have no idea what the Source is capable of, look at Tenebrae, it puts real-time shadows into the Quake engine. There is no doubt in my mind that future games on the Source engine can utilize real-time shadows.
 
Number of results on Google for the keywords supertrooper and Sp0ck:

supertrooper( 5 830 results) versus Sp0ck(493 results)

The winner is: supertrooper

yay!
 
Originally posted by Sp0ck
One wrong doing is not justifiable by another.

While it is true that Burzum could have worded his post better, it is not the right course of action to reply in like manner.

Surak teaches us that there is no offence where no offence is taken.
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So why didn't you choose to ride burzum's ass for his remarks?
 
Originally posted by Sp0ck
One wrong doing is not justifiable by another.

While it is true that Burzum could have worded his post better, it is not the right course of action to reply in like manner.

Surak teaches us that there is no offence where no offence is taken.
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would your involvement not in turn put you into that cycle?
for attacking someone else for attacking someone who attacked someone else?
you perpetuate the "offence"

earlier you told Crusader


"Crusader, you are missing the point."

however when he retorted, your reply was

"You are free to think as you will, as am I. And if I think differently, i fail to see how this means I am missing your points."

Im sorry Spock, I have been following you in other threads, and reading through the discussion at hand.
you are luke warm.

you keep contradicting yourself to the point that your arguements are a farce.

Spock (I believe) was not a (Surak) "bible-thumper" (one who preaches but cannot keep consistency with that which he preaches) and if you are trying to emulate his demeanor, neither should you.

Im trying to be as unbiased as I can, IM not attacking you personaly I am questioning your logic,... the very thing you seem to proclaim you have grasp on.

as Mountain man said, its about Perception.. what you perceive to be Logic, may very well not be, but instead what you PERCEIVE it to be.

(and since IM redundant)
do not post your opinion as fact ;)
 
So why didn't you choose to ride burzum's ass for his remarks?
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Burzum's post was inadvertently offenseive, while MountainMan's post was intentionally offensive.

would than not in turn put you into that cycle?
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No, on the contrary, i attacked no one.


"Crusader, you are missing the point."

however when he retorted, your reply was

"You are free to think as you will, as am I. And if I think differently, i fail to see how this means I am missing your points."
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Now you are only seeing what you want to see.

Crusader failed to grasp the point i was making, he was misunderstanding me. I on the other hand understood the point he was trying to make, i simply disagreed with it. Read my words for what they truly mean, and not for what you want them to mean.

you keep contradicting yourself to the point that your arguements are a farce.
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I have made no contridictions, for conrtidictions are illogical and my every action is based on logic. The example you posted was a misunderstanding on your part, as i have shown.
 
Burzum's post was inadvertently offenseive, while MountainMan's post was intentionally offensive.

(thats how you perceive it, however many including Mountain man, saw his as the offensive post that needed rectifying)

No, on the contrary, i attacked no one.

(neither did Mountain man, this is where your perception, and in turn "judgement" came into play)


Now you are only seeing what you want to see.

(and you only argue, and understand as a HUMAN what you see... as I stated Im trying to be unbiased, and Im not trying to pick a fight)

Crusader failed to grasp the point i was making, he was misunderstanding me. I on the other hand understood the point he was trying to make, i simply disagreed with it. Read my words for what they truly mean, and not for what you want them to mean.

(and in turn you misunderstood him, whats the difference?)

I have made no contridictions, for conrtidictions are illogical and my every action is based on logic. The example you posted was a misunderstanding on your part, as i have shown.

(the human condition is illogical.)
----------------------------------
You illustrate my point well.

that is how you perceive the situation, you however have taken the "well Im the more intellegent being, and therefore I have an unattainable grasp on the situation"
theres nothing wrong with that, however do not attack others for their "grasp" on the situation.

its easy to say "lols lols you dont git whut I sed" in an intellectual manner, however maturity dictates that at some point you will understand everyone has a different take on a situation, and yours is not the only "logical" path.

SpOck, the thing that gets me is.
if you were an intellectual being with maturity and wisdom which we could not fathom, why would you stoop so low as to partake in the silly debate to start with.

at the core of this entire silly debate one would realize its based on FICTION, there is no logic in discussing something or comparing engines when they in essence DO NOT EXIST, when the games are released we will have fact, until that time this is pointless.
as I said "luke warm"

you dip down to our level to state something, then when questioned, we are the ones mistaken?
 
Originally posted by Sp0ck
I have made no contridictions, for conrtidictions are illogical and my every action is based on logic.
Click to expand...


newsflash, your are _not_ Spock. You are in need of help if you actually believe you are a character from Star Trek, or any other show for that matter

now if you wish you can PM and I'll put you in touch with a very good friend of mine who is experienced in treating mental illness, and I'm sure he'll be able to help you and gently ease you back into reality. All you need to do is ask for help and there are people out there who want to help you. I know its scary at first, but you'll be in good hands.
 
Originally posted by ElFuhrer
Yes, but remember, for this reason they didn't use the entire potential of the Source engine. That new Bloodlines game uses some features of the Source that HL2 does not. We have no idea what the Source is capable of, look at Tenebrae, it puts real-time shadows into the Quake engine. There is no doubt in my mind that future games on the Source engine can utilize real-time shadows.
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well its not that easy...

to add an unified lightning/normal/specular realtime maps game ala Doom3 will require a complete redesign of the Hl2 renderer in the engine.. so its not possible for mod makers to do that.. and its something that could take a lot of modifications and top class programming. unless Valve release the Source code to the public.. :dozey: errrrr.... mmm ... yes its possible.. :cheers:
but probably it will not be a legal game... :cheese:
 
the real spock wouldn't make all those spelling errors as well. :p
 
spock, why do you mingle with these primitive and barbaric humans? i know you feel the need to 'help them along', so to speak. but i don't think they are ready for the teachings of surak. let them kill each other in nuclear wars (or whatever it is the humans do) for awhile, then bring the word of surak back into their dim lives.

write that down.
 
Originally posted by Lil' Timmy
spock, why do you mingle with these primitive and barbaric humans? i know you feel the need to 'help them along', so to speak. but i don't think they are ready for the teachings of surak. let them kill each other in nuclear wars (or whatever it is the humans do) for awhile, then bring the word of surak back into their dim lives.

write that down.
Click to expand...

I like pants
 
dude, pants toatlly pwnz shorts.. it's a fact, not my opinion! so you can disagree with it, if you have no problem being completely wrong (which, apparently, you don't)!!!!!!!
 
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