Palestinian Suicide bombers kill 9 innocent people..
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Rupertvdb
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This event goes beyond comment. To encapsulate all of the issues around it would require some serious essay work.
My personal view is that this all a part of the incoming middle-eastern conflicts that are going to result from the growth of extremist Islam's political influence and the political flux that the simultaneous elections of Palestine and Israel have created. Israel is surrounded by increasingly aggressive voices yet its government and the west is finding it hard to actually do anything about this. Some of the Israeli parties that found success in their recent elections haven't even decided upon foreign policy and the voting masses seem to have little interest in party's stances on the subject in the face of the seemingly unresolvable disputes between Israel and the Islamic nations that surround it. Meanwhile the fiery rhetoric of Iran - which has picked up the funding of Palestine after the Western withdrawal - continues and the increasing influence it has as a result of its rise to global prominence as an enemy of Israel and the West makes these kind of events more and more likely.
I really should be revising my Chaucer so i'll cut it short here. Just some thoughts.
My personal view is that this all a part of the incoming middle-eastern conflicts that are going to result from the growth of extremist Islam's political influence and the political flux that the simultaneous elections of Palestine and Israel have created. Israel is surrounded by increasingly aggressive voices yet its government and the west is finding it hard to actually do anything about this. Some of the Israeli parties that found success in their recent elections haven't even decided upon foreign policy and the voting masses seem to have little interest in party's stances on the subject in the face of the seemingly unresolvable disputes between Israel and the Islamic nations that surround it. Meanwhile the fiery rhetoric of Iran - which has picked up the funding of Palestine after the Western withdrawal - continues and the increasing influence it has as a result of its rise to global prominence as an enemy of Israel and the West makes these kind of events more and more likely.
I really should be revising my Chaucer so i'll cut it short here. Just some thoughts.
hehe, well i wonder who still thinks Iran wants nuclear technology for "peacefull" purposes 
?
anyways, imo its also shitty how the ordinary Palestinian is made to suffer, to fill up the apparant desire for hatred by the Hamas and its fellow-organisations.
For in the end, its the Israeli's and Palestinians that both suffer from this.
? anyways, imo its also shitty how the ordinary Palestinian is made to suffer, to fill up the apparant desire for hatred by the Hamas and its fellow-organisations.
For in the end, its the Israeli's and Palestinians that both suffer from this.
VirusType2
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Can't they get some people in power in Iran and Iraq that aren't total psychos? Their citizens seem to love their leaders though, leading me to believe that there can never be any resolution.
On the other hand, Saddam was getting 99% of the votes, but how quickly the people turned against Saddam once he was out of power - most of them anyway. They need powerfully peaceful leaders there. You would be surprised what a bit of water would do on that fire there.
On the other hand, Saddam was getting 99% of the votes, but how quickly the people turned against Saddam once he was out of power - most of them anyway. They need powerfully peaceful leaders there. You would be surprised what a bit of water would do on that fire there.
"Can't they get some people in power in Iran and Iraq that aren't total psychos? Their citizens seem to love their leaders though, leading me to believe that there can never be any resolution. "
Doesn't that apply to us Americans too?
Doesn't that apply to us Americans too?
JNightshade
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Haha, quite true. But anyway, this whole situation is so... gah. Personally, I refuse to pick a side, because every side is completely f*cking stupid :/
el Chi
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The idea of it being self-defence, though is the idea that they're threatened within what they see as their rightful land. If an invading force took over your country, would you let them get away with it? Probably not.Ome_Vince said:
I should, however, clarify that I do not in any way whatsoever condone, nor agree with what they have done - I am simply saying that I understand their position.
Rupertvdb
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Hamas received the popular vote on the basis of perceived (and real) corruption within the PLO, and within this the Fatah, that dominated Palestian politics for many years under Yasser Arafat. Hamas received large amounts of funding through Iran, private citizens of Saudi Arabia (formerly through the state until Hamas's terrorist status threatened to sour things between the Saudis and the US) and Palestinian ex-pats which allowed them to establish welfare systems and public services that aided those that were unassisted by by the PLO. This is where they got the votes, the people were willing to stand behind an organisation that had stood behind them. The problem is that they could freely recruit for their terror campaigns from a population that was in their debt and felt impotent as members of what they perceived to be the victimised arab state.
I don't think you meant that Israel have corrupt elections. The vote is counted quite democratically as far as i'm aware. Iran, on the other hand, is a different kettle of fish. Although Ahmadinejad (first time I spelt that correctly on the first go, score) supposedly has quite a popular following on the basis of his fierce defence of Iranian sovereignty, even to the point where his less agreeable policies are tolerated by an affluent, fairly westernised middle-class, I have read reports of low voter turnout in the 2005 elections. This isn't to say he shouldn't be there according to the people though, and don't take that last comment as wholly Gospel, I am still digging around.
I don't think you meant that Israel have corrupt elections. The vote is counted quite democratically as far as i'm aware. Iran, on the other hand, is a different kettle of fish. Although Ahmadinejad (first time I spelt that correctly on the first go, score) supposedly has quite a popular following on the basis of his fierce defence of Iranian sovereignty, even to the point where his less agreeable policies are tolerated by an affluent, fairly westernised middle-class, I have read reports of low voter turnout in the 2005 elections. This isn't to say he shouldn't be there according to the people though, and don't take that last comment as wholly Gospel, I am still digging around.
el Chi said:
Ah, but here's the point. Israel was not an invading force.
Israel was formed out of jewish people allready living there for thousands of years before Islam ever existed.
Those jewish areas formed Israel, and more jewish settlers then moved in.
Best to compare it with a part of the country seperating from another, not conquering.
The territory Israel conquered after that, was conquered in defensive wars, but should be given back as a "guesture of good will".
Anybody shouting hard about Israeli's giving back land they took while being invaded by over 3-4 countries at the same time, should look into their own countries history, alot can be learnt there..
Sadly but true, this is all about religions, nothing more.
He's right. Another reason why I hate religion.
I think another problem was after Israel was created, the more Jewish people moved in, the more Muslim people were treated poorly and forced to leave their homes. I don't know if that's worth blowing yourself up for, but then again I've never been to Israel so I don't feel I'm in any position to talk about what goes on there.
But from my persepective, it's like the blood and crip gangs in LA back in the early 90's. some people killed some people, and then it kept getting worse and worse.
well, in general yeah they can split off, just as many countries have done and continue to do.
It happens alot that pieces of the country split off, and the "mainland" does not accept this (as is in most cases). Holland-Belgium, Austria-Hungary, all the former colonies, Taiwan etc.
Israel just split off from Arabic rule, thats it.
In the middle-east this happened before, but now it has a religious background..
It happens alot that pieces of the country split off, and the "mainland" does not accept this (as is in most cases). Holland-Belgium, Austria-Hungary, all the former colonies, Taiwan etc.
Israel just split off from Arabic rule, thats it.
In the middle-east this happened before, but now it has a religious background..
Dynasty
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''What good's religion when its each other we despise'' - Placebo
Ome_Vince, you say the whole thing is sick..but think about it. Is it really? Theyre hardly mindless zombies walking onto the streets, pushing a button and creating a massacre like a velociraptor in a playschool.
Its all about their religion. The Quaran says theyll go to heaven no matter what (well, the jist of it does), so they believe no matter what they do, they cant go wrong. Now obviously doesnt say 'strap c4 to yourself and blow up people in an act of *political statement*'. However, think of it on the christian side. If you were a christian and the Bible said it was acceptable to take other people's lives to make a strong religious and political statement, would we think the whole thing was so wrong???
If the Bible said 911 was ok, would we throw our arms up in the air and bomb the crap out of our so called 'terrorist' fellow human beings??
And no i dont know why they do it in the first place, which is what im guessing you're screaming at the screen. So stop it *you*, i cant hear you.
Its religion for them. They follow the Quaran like brits follow and watch football...its a basis of their entire lifestyle.
Ome_Vince, you say the whole thing is sick..but think about it. Is it really? Theyre hardly mindless zombies walking onto the streets, pushing a button and creating a massacre like a velociraptor in a playschool.
Its all about their religion. The Quaran says theyll go to heaven no matter what (well, the jist of it does), so they believe no matter what they do, they cant go wrong. Now obviously doesnt say 'strap c4 to yourself and blow up people in an act of *political statement*'. However, think of it on the christian side. If you were a christian and the Bible said it was acceptable to take other people's lives to make a strong religious and political statement, would we think the whole thing was so wrong???
If the Bible said 911 was ok, would we throw our arms up in the air and bomb the crap out of our so called 'terrorist' fellow human beings??
And no i dont know why they do it in the first place, which is what im guessing you're screaming at the screen. So stop it *you*, i cant hear you
.Its religion for them. They follow the Quaran like brits follow and watch football...its a basis of their entire lifestyle.
Well, its the case with all fundementalists, whether they're Christian Muslim or Jew.
Intollerance is within fundementalism. Right now many muslims in the middle-east are being angered and fueled by religious maniacs.
"What was once Islamic territory must stay Islamic territory" is what they are being indoctrinated, just like the Christians we're being indoctrinated to burn witches and fight "the infidel" in the middle-east hundreds of years ago.
On the other hand, in Israel, the orthodox jews dont really help by "feeling superior" towards their Islamic neighbours and discriminating them.
Intollerance is within fundementalism. Right now many muslims in the middle-east are being angered and fueled by religious maniacs.
"What was once Islamic territory must stay Islamic territory" is what they are being indoctrinated, just like the Christians we're being indoctrinated to burn witches and fight "the infidel" in the middle-east hundreds of years ago.
On the other hand, in Israel, the orthodox jews dont really help by "feeling superior" towards their Islamic neighbours and discriminating them.
Dynasty
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You must also take into consideration America's influence being a factor in the 'anger fuel' you say they're being fed. I personally completely disagree. Having spent 4 years all over the middle-east, sure im just 19, but not once, not ONCE did i get any hint what-so-ever of anger or hatred of any other country.
Ive never met people more kind and caring than muslims, hell you can go into the wadi's of the mountains in Oman, turn up by accident at a village, and the completely 'in the middle of nowhere still living in the stone age' type residents go completely out of their way and treat you like kings/gods.
Theres alot more to it than just religion. Witches for the Christians was just a pathetic belief and an excuse for a husband to get rid of his wife. Witches didnt exist for the love of god. Sure they didnt know that, but it was still bollocks.
But one thing i do agree on, is that the political crap and influence isnt helping with the much needed rebuild of the middle-eastern country after America went in for Oil...woops, ahah my bad, i meant Saddam of course..
I still think we should watch over what happens in the future, but at the end of the day, we should just back off and let them sort themselves out. Other countries forcing another to be run in their own 'puppet' like way, isnt going to work.
Ive never met people more kind and caring than muslims, hell you can go into the wadi's of the mountains in Oman, turn up by accident at a village, and the completely 'in the middle of nowhere still living in the stone age' type residents go completely out of their way and treat you like kings/gods.
Theres alot more to it than just religion. Witches for the Christians was just a pathetic belief and an excuse for a husband to get rid of his wife. Witches didnt exist for the love of god. Sure they didnt know that, but it was still bollocks.
But one thing i do agree on, is that the political crap and influence isnt helping with the much needed rebuild of the middle-eastern country after America went in for Oil...woops, ahah my bad, i meant Saddam of course..
I still think we should watch over what happens in the future, but at the end of the day, we should just back off and let them sort themselves out. Other countries forcing another to be run in their own 'puppet' like way, isnt going to work.
True, i've visited the middle-east many times, and Arabic families are one of the most social and kind encounters i've had.
The anger fuel is not only done by acts of the west, you cant blame the West for all the hatred in the middle east.
Way before America even existed the world had the same problems with various religions including Islam.
This runs much deeper than "American Oil States and Israel's creation"..
In Islam's case, there is alot of pure hatred indoctrination going on by organisations like Hamas.
Many regular peacefull muslims are drawn into this hatred of others. These organisations are the backbone of this hatred. Everything else is just extra fuel on top.
The west is to blame in their methods, as is Israel. They shouldnt fuel this hatred even more by their conventional attacks.
Or like in the past creating "Oils States".
There's a big gap in worlds, which needs to be closed ofcourse. First thing is remove the "rioters" -> the extremist organisations that fuel/indoctrinate the basic hatred.
The anger fuel is not only done by acts of the west, you cant blame the West for all the hatred in the middle east.
Way before America even existed the world had the same problems with various religions including Islam.
This runs much deeper than "American Oil States and Israel's creation"..
In Islam's case, there is alot of pure hatred indoctrination going on by organisations like Hamas.
Many regular peacefull muslims are drawn into this hatred of others. These organisations are the backbone of this hatred. Everything else is just extra fuel on top.
The west is to blame in their methods, as is Israel. They shouldnt fuel this hatred even more by their conventional attacks.
Or like in the past creating "Oils States".
There's a big gap in worlds, which needs to be closed ofcourse. First thing is remove the "rioters" -> the extremist organisations that fuel/indoctrinate the basic hatred.
