Past Healthcare reforms that would have worked

[CptStern]

something is better than nothing.

 

[Krynn72]

Damn 24% of you income to health insurance?

 

[Solaris]

Inbefore: 'COMMUNISM HERP HERP'

 

[Mr. Djees]

Nixon, Carter and Clinton all tried to reform healthcare?

Oh wow, it's like there's a healthcare reform curse.

 

[CptStern]

Nixon, Carter and Clinton all tried to reform healthcare?

Oh wow, it's like there's a healthcare reform curse.

it also coincides with a 40 year boom in the insurance industry.... also the rise of the lobbyist

 

[Shyam]

it also coincides with a 40 year boom in the insurance industry.... also the rise of the lobbyist

What is it, like 90 lobbyists to a senator or a congressman ? I don't know the exact figure.

 

[VictimOfScience]

Lobbyists can be blamed directly for the lion's share of the woes our country faces. I should rephrase that: Lobbyists can be blamed directly for the lion's share of the woes our country's poor faces. The fatcats are doing fine and always will as long as the current system remains ostensibly unchecked, unchallenged, and unchanged.

 

[The Monkey]

Lobbyists have always existed, but it's only now that people have taken notice of them. And believe it or not, some of them do good too.

 

[nurizeko]

I'm feeling a bit under the weather TBH, thinking about going to my GP.

Interesting post, Stern.

 

[Robbo]

Lobbyists have always existed, but it's only now that people have taken notice of them. And believe it or not, some of them do good too.

Only when both sides of an argument are represented equally. As the rich are... well rich they get more of a say so things benefit them. In General

 

[No Limit]

CNN did a story yesterday where a hospital charged $1000 for a toothbrush and the insurance payed it no questions asked. Similar stories for $100 tylenol and $50 latex gloves. A few more years of this and it's going to be really bad.

 

[Ridge]

Simply put, the only healthcare reform that needs to be dealt with is to reduce the amount of frivolous lawsuits, which will drive down malpractice insurance, which will drive down costs to the consumer.

That, and lay the smackdown on insurance fraud by hospitals and other corporations...

Health care would be more affordable then, and would not drive the US into the economic ground....further.

 

[Solaris]

Simply put, the only healthcare reform that needs to be dealt with is to reduce the amount of frivolous lawsuits, which will drive down malpractice insurance, which will drive down costs to the consumer.

That, and lay the smackdown on insurance fraud by hospitals and other corporations...

Health care would be more affordable then, and would not drive the US into the economic ground....further.

Er... no?

There are for more problems than that.

 

[Ridge]

Er... no?

There are for more problems than that.

Such as?

 

[Solaris]

Such as?

Someone loses their job and thus insurance. Get's knocked over the next day. Cost of treatment forces him into bankruptcy.

That never can happen in the UK becuase of our nationalised system.

 

[Noodle]

Simply put, the only healthcare reform that needs to be dealt with is to reduce the amount of frivolous lawsuits, which will drive down malpractice insurance, which will drive down costs to the consumer.

That, and lay the smackdown on insurance fraud by hospitals and other corporations...

Health care would be more affordable then, and would not drive the US into the economic ground....further.

That's a good start and what I think needs to be taken care of first, but it's not the only action that is gonna happen.

 

[Ridge]

Someone loses their job and thus insurance. Get's knocked over the next day. Cost of treatment forces him into bankruptcy.

That never can happen in the UK becuase of our nationalised system.

You expect to get a service that costs a fortune to run, for free? THAT, my friend, is socialism.

Besides, people lose their jobs as a result of the economy. The economy is in such a sorry state as it is because of government interference in private industry. How can more government interference reverse it's very effects?

 

[No Limit]

Such as?

You are really asking this question? REALLY?

Let's see:

pre-existing conditions
The fact we pay 17% of our GDP to healthcare
The fact Canada gets the same drugs we do for a fraction of the price
The fact that healthcare is unaffordable
The fact that healthcare companies have anti-trust exemptions
life time caps on treatments
dropping people with insurance for bullshit reasons
Even if you have insurance deductibles and co-pays make treatment unaffordable for many
The fact that there are 47 million uninsured americans.
The fact insurance companies are raising prices through the roof while having some of the highest profit margins ever.

Those are just the first things that popped in to my head. Every serious organization that looked at tort reform said it accounts for 2-3% of our healthcare costs tops. So there are much deeper problems with healthcare, how you don't see this is beyond me.

 

[No Limit]

You expect to get a service that costs a fortune to run, for free? THAT, my friend, is socialism.

The post office is socialist. So are the roads you drive on. So is our military. So what is your ****ing point?

Do you have control over your healthcare? Do you decide what preexisting conditions you are or aren't born with? No? So why would you consider health care a commodity?

 

[Ridge]

You are really asking this question? REALLY?

Let's see:

pre-existing conditions

Insurance is gambling. Plain and simple. You pay to them, hoping they have to pay out more. They take the money, hoping they dont have to make a payoff.

The fact we pay 17% of our GDP to healthcare

Ah yes, due to mandatory free emergency room entrance. Abused by illegals and those who will not buy insurance. They DO need to be cut back. A good way to start is booting out all the illegals.

The fact Canada gets the same drugs we do for a fraction of the price

Because of government interference. They will not allow foreign-made drugs into the US. This creates a captive audience of citizens who require drugs.

The fact that healthcare is unaffordable

Did you not see my first post?

The fact that healthcare companies have anti-trust exemptions

Government interference and lobbyists. Both need to be cut back or removed entirely.

life time caps on treatments

Yes, bullshit from the insurance companies. Either deal with it, or find an insurance provider that doesnt make limitations on care.

dropping people with insurance for bullshit reasons

Free market. There are plenty of other companies out there willing to take your money.

Even if you have insurance deductibles and co-pays make treatment unaffordable for many

Again, costs will go down if frivolous lawsuits are thrown out.

The fact that there are 47 million uninsured americans.

Source? How many of those are illegal immigrants?

Those are just the first things that popped in to my head. Every serious organization that looked at tort reform said it accounts for 2-3% of our healthcare costs tops. So there are much deeper problems with healthcare, how you don't see this is beyond me.

I'm sure lobbyists and their deep pockets have NOTHING to do with those results saying thier jobs are necessary

 

[Solaris]

You expect to get a service that costs a fortune to run, for free? THAT, my friend, is socialism.

Besides, people lose their jobs as a result of the economy. The economy is in such a sorry state as it is because of government interference in private industry. How can more government interference reverse it's very effects?

And that isn't an argument.

Sorry to be rude, but it's pathetic to come here with some idiotic 'solution' to all the problems thinking that everybody could have affordable healthcare if only it wasn't for the 'malpractice lawsuits'.

Any problems pointed out or alternative solutions and you just shout 'SOCIALISM HERP DERP'

Come on, do better.

 

[Ridge]

The post office is socialist. So are the roads you drive on. So is our military. So what is your ****ing point?

The post office, yes. And it is dying. Private industry is making a bigger impact, as is the internet. Its a zombie product left over from when the US was fledgling, and spread farther than most private businesses.

Roads? No. Roads are repaired with the fees you pay at the DMV. So the permits and papers that allow you to drive on the roads fund the very roads you are on.

The military is a necessity. It is there to keep These United States (not THE United States) safe and put a central command to our National Guard units, in such a way as they can more efficiently defend us.

 

[Ridge]

And that isn't an argument.

Sorry to be rude, but it's pathetic to come here with some idiotic 'solution' to all the problems thinking that everybody could have affordable healthcare if only it wasn't for the 'malpractice lawsuits'.

Any problems pointed out or alternative solutions and you just shout 'SOCIALISM HERP DERP'

Come on, do better.

How is NOT socialism? From those who can, to those who cannot. Just like welfare is a collosal waste. Now, granted, there ARE people who legitimately need social providers, like those who cannot perform a job they trained for due to an accident or illness. But for every 1 person like that, there are 2 or 3 who simply chose not to better themselves, and now have nothing to offer society.

Darwin used to weed those people out. But now we have the glorious federal government there to knock Darwin on his ass and keep these drains on society going.

 

[jondy]

Ridge, you should actually be super-happy with the healthcare that's on the table, because unlike FDR, LBJ, Carter and Clinton's proposals, this one keeps the whole private market, preserves individual choice, incorporates malpractice reform and actually reduces the deficit according to the CBO - similar to the proposal that Gingrich's party had on the table in '94, minus the massive medicare cuts.

 

[Eejit]

Darwin used to weed those people out. But now we have the glorious federal government there to knock Darwin on his ass and keep these drains on society going.

This is a whole new side of Charles Darwin's life and work I never knew about! Please, tell me more!

 

[CptStern]

How is NOT socialism?

lol it's healthcare for all, how is that socialism? canada is not socialist and we have healthcare for all:

Canada: Federal parliamentary democracy

are you redefining socialism to mean something it's not? is paying out of taxes for things like education, infastracture socialism? by your narrow definition that makes the US socialist. so why does healthcare gets tagged as "socialism" when "free education for all" doesnt? because the opponents of healthcare reform frame it that way so that the flock can endlessly repeat their mantra "IT'S SOCILAISM!!!"

From those who can, to those who cannot. Just like welfare is a collosal waste. Now, granted, there ARE people who legitimately need social providers, like those who cannot perform a job they trained for due to an accident or illness. But for every 1 person like that, there are 2 or 3 who simply chose not to better themselves, and now have nothing to offer society.

that's a pretty concrete statement. have anything to back up your figures?

Darwin used to weed those people out. But now we have the glorious federal government there to knock Darwin on his ass and keep these drains on society going.

"About 90% of TANF (Temporary Assistance to Needy Families), recipients are women"

http://www.socwomen.org/socactivism/factwelfare.pdf

****ing drains on society they should be weeded with a bullet to the head to save Ridge's parents from paying more taxes

 

[Ridge]

Ridge, you should actually be super-happy with the healthcare that's on the table, because unlike FDR, LBJ, Carter and Clinton's proposals, this one keeps the whole private market, preserves individual choice, incorporates malpractice reform and actually reduces the deficit according to the CBO - similar to the proposal that Gingrich's party had on the table in '94, minus the massive medicare cuts.

Originally, they wanted that AND free healthcare through the government. Private industry would not be able to compete with free, and would eventually die.

lol it's healthcare for all, how is that socialism? canada is not socialist and we have healthcare for all:

Canada: Federal parliamentary democracy

Paid for with your taxes. So you are paying everybody's healthcare. In the US, we would have to pay for our private healthcare, plus everyone else's "free" government healthcare.

"About 90% of TANF (Temporary Assistance to Needy Families), recipients are women"

http://www.socwomen.org/socactivism/factwelfare.pdf

****ing drains on society they should be weeded with a bullet to the head to save Ridge's parents from paying more taxes

Just because they are women does not mean they dont cheat the system. There are plenty of baby mommas out there that just keep popping out kids while not even attempting to get a job, because they know the gov't will pay them to raise their kids.

And btw, I'm 23, and also have to pay taxes. My most hated tax is social security. Putting money into a slush fund with the empty promise of getting it back when I retire. I know I wont get a penny of it. My parents know they wont get a dime of theirs.

 

[AJ Rimmer]

You expect to get a service that costs a fortune to run, for free? THAT, my friend, is socialism.

Yes, I do expect to get really expensive treatment, some of which may be life-critical, or necessary to avoid being in pain, or any other kind, for free (providing that by free you mean in exchange for taxes). And yes, that is socialist, in spirit. And it works.

How is NOT socialism?

He never said it isn't socialism, he said that shouting "IT'S SOCIALISM!" isn't an argument. It works for quite a lot of countries. Including the US. Or is the fire department and police department privately owned companies?

Private industry would not be able to compete with free, and would eventually die.

Good.

 

[Ridge]

How is the death of industry good? What new technologies or developments has gov't ever created? Outside the space program.

 

[CptStern]

Originally, they wanted that AND free healthcare through the government. Private industry would not be able to compete with free, and would eventually die.

what? where do you getr this from? the only industry hurt by this is the insurance industry, the private/public institutions would still get paid. in canada we have a mix of private and public clinics. the ONLY distinction is that one is privately owned and the othe ris not; they're still paid by the same system

Paid for with your taxes. So you are paying everybody's healthcare. In the US, we would have to pay for our private healthcare, plus everyone else's "free" government healthcare.

you mean kind of how like private school is run; the rich who send their kids to private school still pay for public school. "to arms fellow conservatives, we've had socialism from the very beginning!!!!"

Just because they are women does not mean they dont cheat the system. There are plenty of baby mommas out there that just keep popping out kids while not even attempting to get a job, because they know the gov't will pay them to raise their kids.

lol pay them to raise kids? do you have any clue how expensive it is to raise a child? I'm guessing not, the government is paying for the bare minimum; survival

And btw, I'm 23, and also have to pay taxes. My most hated tax is social security. Putting money into a slush fund with the empty promise of getting it back when I retire. I know I wont get a penny of it. My parents know they wont get a dime of theirs.

storm the capital!!! you're accusing the government of highway robbery when this isnt the case for the overwelming majority of americans or else there'd be a hell of a lot more homeless old people

 

[Ridge]

what? where do you getr this from? the only industry hurt by this is the insurance industry, the private/public institutions would still get paid.

And when insurance industries go under, how will docs get paid? By the gov't? Not with the bureaucracy and kickbacks required for a plan to go ahead.

you mean kind of how like private school is run; the rich who send their kids to private school still pay for public school.

Yeah, thats bullshit, too. Especially considering how much it costs to pay teacher unions to put out the absolutely awful education they do. The textbooks are old as all hell (I graduated high school in 2004, and our US history books only went up to the Gulf War in 1991), and schools dont have enough resources to teach kids stuff. A disgusting amount of the money paid in goes to unions that tell teachers they cannot work 5 minutes of overtime, and cannot contribute a cent to the school that employs them.

lol pay them to raise kids? do you have any clue how expensive it is to raise a child? I'm guessing not, the government is paying for the bare minimum; survival

Yes, each service pays just the bare minimum. There are hundreds of thousands of cases of mothers double dipping to get multiple payouts from different organizations, in addition to taking donations from local religious groups...

you're accusing the government of highway robbery when this isnt the case for the overwelming majority of americans or else there'd be a hell of a lot more homeless old people

The baby boomers are retiring. They are going to bleed social security dry. Its been mathematically proven. My generation and my parent's generation have been paying into SS for years, and due to mis-management, we will not see any of it. Social Security became a slush fund for congress to reach into when they needed to hide higher than expected budget costs.

I am all for privatizatino of social security, or just trashing it all together. At the very least, make the payroll deductions optional on an employee case-by-case basis.

 

[AJ Rimmer]

How is the death of industry good? What new technologies or developments has gov't ever created? Outside the space program.

Most medical research is done in universities, a lot of it funded by the government.

 

[Ridge]

No, most medical research is done by private companies, looking to make a fortune by creating a better drug/procedure/placebo.

Universities specialize in taking gov't grants to research whether or not masturbation is healthy...

 

[jondy]

Originally, they wanted that AND free healthcare through the government. Private industry would not be able to compete with free, and would eventually die.

Two things -

First of all, does this mean you support the bill currently going through reconciliation?

Secondly, the public option would be pretty much identical to medicare/aid. What's your opinion on medicare?

I'm not going to get involved with the other stuff, but I'm really interested in your take on the current US healthcare bill.

 

[Ridge]

As far as I'm concerned, the only reform the gov't should have regarding healthcare is cutting down on the frivolous lawsuits, smacking down insurance fraud, and otherwise pulling back on some of their existing laws, such as no insurance companies servicing across state lines, and not allowing the importation and use of drugs made in other countries.

The current bill will only further restrict the kind of service docs can give, and make it harder for us to live our lives independently.

And this line about signing now, and they'll make the requested changes later, its total bullshit, and goes against the very practices set in place by the US Constitution and the oath they swore to protect and abide by it.

 

[jondy]

As far as I'm concerned, the only reform the gov't should have regarding healthcare is cutting down on the frivolous lawsuits, smacking down insurance fraud, and otherwise pulling back on some of their existing laws, such as no insurance companies servicing across state lines, and not allowing the importation and use of drugs made in other countries.

The current bill will only further restrict the kind of service docs can give, and make it harder for us to live our lives independently.

And this line about signing now, and they'll make the requested changes later, its total bullshit, and goes against the very practices set in place by the US Constitution and the oath they swore to protect and abide by it.

More people will be better insured - I'm not really sure how the current bill will restrict the service doctors give.

Interesting point about the reconciliation stuff, but I'm not really sure it's unconstitutional - it was vetted by the (independent) Senate parliamentarians (who are forcing the Senate and House bills to be signed into law before amendments are made - definitely a good call). Amendments are a pretty fundamental part of the political process, and everything that goes through reconciliation will be budget stuff, as it should be. And this will go through with a majority vote or not at all.

 

[The Monkey]

No, most medical research is done by private companies, looking to make a fortune by creating a better drug/procedure/placebo.

Universities specialize in taking gov't grants to research whether or not masturbation is healthy...

Bullshit.

 

[Raziaar]

I hope those "frivolous lawsuits" aren't medical malpractice lawsuits.

Did anybody here know that doctors kill around 180-200,000 people a year due to medical malpractice?

That's more than vehicular accidents and guns combined.

 

[15357]

All your governments are ****tarded. UK is ****tarded because it costs so much in taxes while we do basically the same thing with 10 percentage points less in income tax. The US is ****tarded because it doesn't have national health insurance.


EDIT: My sources may be out of date, anyone care to tell me the income tax rate for the average citizen of the UK and US?

 

[No Limit]

Ridge, I dont even know where to start to address your reply and actually I'll opt not to, clearly a waste of time since you have no interest in discussing this seriously. You said malpractice lawsuits are the holy grail at fixing healthcare costs, yet I clearly pointed out to you this affects 1-3% of the cost of healthcare. I will however use the following 2 examples to show just how high you really are:

Insurance is gambling. Plain and simple. You pay to them, hoping they have to pay out more. They take the money, hoping they dont have to make a payoff.

.....

Free market. There are plenty of other companies out there willing to take your money.

You made that in response to insurance companies dropping people once they get seriously sick for totally bullshit reasons.

Now if one insurance company drops you because they can't shell out a few hundred thousand dollars for your cancer treatment your argument is that in a free market another for profit insurance company will pick you up because there are for profit companies out there that like to lose insane amounts of money?

And so just so we're clear your argument for a child that is born with cancer is that we should let evolution take care of it?

I wish evolution had a way to weed out stupid people.