Peace at Last!

US is not neutral, because of supporting Israel. Regarding this, is it a good idea US to be involved?
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Yes, but if Israel attacks Palestine, Egypt will backup Palestine. If Israel is attacked by Egypt, then we will back up Israel.

I remember so long ago people wanted intervention in the peace-process, and that Muslims where upset not because we did get involved, but because we did'nt get involved enough ...

So, question: Do we keep the Euro's, the Canadians, and Americans out of this one? Because I dont find a bias to be a full or correct answer.
 
K e r b e r o s said:
Yes, but if Israel attacks Palestine, Egypt will backup Palestine. If Israel is attacked by Egypt, then we will back up Israel.

I remember so long ago people wanted intervention in the peace-process, and that Muslims where upset not because we did get involved, but because we did'nt get involved enough ...

So, question: Do we keep the Euro's, the Canadians, and Americans out of this one? Because I dont find a bias to be a full or correct answer.
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Sure the world had and has to get involved. E. g. putting sanctions on Israel for not complying with UN resolutions.

To get involved, yes. But not like the USA have been involved for many years, sponsoring and supporting Israeli genocide on Palestinians.
 
But not like the USA have been involved for many years, sponsoring and supporting Israeli genocide on Palestinians.
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Oh please, the Palestinian Suicide bombers who bomb bus-loads of Children; who tie remote explosives to their childrens backs, then march them at IDF Checkpoints?

Thats not very heroic -- if the Israelis were genociding the Palestinians, well, the Palestinians are doing a better job! :thumbs:
 
If the Israels were commited to genocide... Well... There would have been peace in the mideast 20 years ago.
 
K e r b e r o s said:
Oh please, the Palestinian Suicide bombers who bomb bus-loads of Children; who tie remote explosives to their childrens backs, then march them at IDF Checkpoints?

Thats not very heroic -- if the Israelis were genociding the Palestinians, well, the Palestinians are doing a better job! :thumbs:
Click to expand...



Israeli policies created total desperation for Palestinians: Suicide bombing started with the closure
www.adc.org/clip9.WMV



"There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their [Palestinians] fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"
-- Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.


"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.
(David Ben Gurion, Prime Minister of Israel, 1949 - 1954, 1955 - 1963)


"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.


"If I knew that it was possible to save all the [Jewish] children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel."
-- David Ben-Gurion (Quoted on pp 855-56 in Shabtai Teveth's Ben-Gurion in a slightly different translation).


"I would have joined a terrorist organization."
-- Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.(Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel 1999 - 2001)


"The past leaders of our movement left us a clear message to keep Eretz Israel from the Sea to the River Jordan for future generations, for the mass aliya (=Jewish immigration), and for the Jewish people, all of whom will be gathered into this country."
-- Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir declares at a Tel Aviv memorial service for former Likud leaders, November 1990. Jerusalem Domestic Radio Service.


"The settlement of the Land of Israel is the essence of Zionism. Without settlement, we will not fulfill Zionism. It's that simple."
-- Yitzhak Shamir, Maariv, 02/21/1997.


"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988


"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."
-- Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.



Rachel's War (From The Guardian - 3/18/2003)
The Killing of Rachel Corrie by Israel
http://www.ajpme.org/articles/rachelsw.htm

A Collection of Letters from Rachel Corrie (above right)- 23 year old American peace activist crushed to death by a bulldozer as she tried to prevent the Israeli army destroying homes in the Gaza Strip. In a remarkable series of emails to her family, she explained why she was risking her life.


I thought a lot about what you said on the phone about Palestinian violence not helping the situation. Sixty thousand workers from Rafah worked in Israel two years ago. Now only 600 can go to Israel for jobs. Of these 600, many have moved, because the three checkpoints between here and Ashkelon (the closest city in Israel) make what used to be a 40-minute drive, now a 12-hour or impassible journey. In addition, what Rafah identified in 1999 as sources of economic growth are all completely destroyed - the Gaza international airport (runways demolished, totally closed); the border for trade with Egypt (now with a giant Israeli sniper tower in the middle of the crossing); access to the ocean (completely cut off in the last two years by a checkpoint and the Gush Katif settlement). The count of homes destroyed in Rafah since the beginning of this intifada is up around 600, by and large people with no connection to the resistance but who happen to live along the border. I think it is maybe official now that Rafah is the poorest place in the world. There used to be a middle class here - recently. We also get reports that in the past, Gazan flower shipments to Europe were delayed for two weeks at the Erez crossing for security inspections. You can imagine the value of two-week-old cut flowers in the European market, so that market dried up. And then the bulldozers come and take out people's vegetable farms and gardens. What is left for people? Tell me if you can think of anything. I can't."

If any of us had our lives and welfare completely strangled, lived with children in a shrinking place where we knew, because of previous experience, that soldiers and tanks and bulldozers could come for us at any moment and destroy all the greenhouses that we had been cultivating for however long, and did this while some of us were beaten and held captive with 149 other people for several hours - do you think we might try to use somewhat violent means to protect whatever fragments remained? I think about this especially when I see orchards and greenhouses and fruit trees destroyed - just years of care and cultivation. I think about you and how long it takes to make things grow and what a labour of love it is. I really think, in a similar situation, most people would defend themselves as best they could. I think Uncle Craig would. I think probably Grandma would. I think I would.
 
Outrageous, impudent, evil ...


Israel is blocking the peace process by further violation of international law:

Israel confirms settlements growth, Monday, 21 March, 2005
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4367787.stm

The Israeli government has confirmed plans to increase the size of its largest settlement in the West Bank.

Approximately 3,500 homes are planned for Maale Adumim, east of Jerusalem.

The settlements at Ariel in the northern West Bank, and Gush Etzion, south of Jerusalem, are also expected to be expanded.

...

Chief Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat said the Israeli plan threatened hopes of restarting the Middle East peace process.

"[This] sabotages all efforts seeking to get the peace process back on track," he told the AFP news agency.

...

"We ask the Quartet and American President George Bush: what happened to the two-state vision and how can we have peace while settlements and the wall continue to be built?" Mr Erekat said.

Under the peace plan known as the roadmap, Israel pledged to freeze the growth of settlements on land occupied since 1967. The plan is sponsored by the "quartet" of the US, Russia, European Union and United Nations.

The international community considers all settlements in Gaza and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, as illegal under international law, though Israel disputes this.

A spokesman for the US embassy in Tel Aviv said that Washington expected Israel to keep the commitments it made under the roadmap, and for Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to abide by the promises he made President Bush."


Some time ago:

U.S. to Israel: Don't build in Maale Adumim, August 4, 2004
http://web.israelinsider.com/bin/en...o=Article^l3930&enZone=Diplomacy&enVersion=0&

A U.S. official said, two days earlier, that "the road map calls for an end to all settlement activities, including natural growth."

British Foreign Office Minister Baroness Symons said she was "very concerned" by the reports. She urged Israel "in accordance with phase one of the road map that Ariel Sharon agreed to last year, to freeze all settlement activity including the natural growth of existing settlements, and to dismantle all outposts built since 2001."

"Such plans run counter to both the letter and the spirit of the road map for peace that Israel has accepted," the Dutch European Union presidency said in a brief statement.

In Israel, Peace Now activists said expanding Maale Adumim could harm future efforts at a negotiated solution with the Palestinians by further dividing the West Bank. "It's another bullet in the cadaver of the road map," said Dror Etkes, who monitors settlement construction for the group, according to a Haaretz report.


Hmm, Israel continues to spit on international law and the world ...
I think, there is only one way: To put sanctions on Israel asap.


See also:

Jewish settlers beat Palestinians, 17 March, 2005
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4358935.stm

"Palestinians are often employed on Jewish settlements
Jewish settlers wielding clubs and stones have attacked a group of Palestinian labourers entering the West Bank settlement of Nahliel.
Israeli police said 30 to 40 Jewish seminary students attacked eight men employed early on Thursday."
 
Outrageous, impudent, evil ...
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Are you saying the Palestinians are any different? I'm sensing a 'slight' bias from your posts. Why dont you show what Israelis have to deal with on a daily basis.
 
Both sides could do better. It seems this peace wave is still going pretty strong.
 
seinfeldrules said:
Are you saying the Palestinians are any different? I'm sensing a 'slight' bias from your posts. Why dont you show what Israelis have to deal with on a daily basis.
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Don't be ridiculous, seinfeldrules ;)


Yes, I find it outrageous, impudent and evil, that Israel is blocking the peace process by further violation of international law. You don´t??

(Israel has been violating international law for many years, for a case you don´t know).


Btw, you are free to show what you want, why you aren't doing it?


You want to show me? Here you are (requires Windows Media Player):

People and the Land by Tom Hayes

It's a documentary filmed in Israel and it is worth to watch it.
 
The palestians are constanley living under oppresion from the Isrealis, when a soldier shoots up someones mother father and sister, no wonder they strap a bomb to them sleves and blow up some israeli.
Also holding the palestinian governement responcable for what these people do is stupid. To solve the prblem israel have to stop creating terrorists, which means stop bombing people homes, nd shooting peopes parents.
 
Hey, if your justifying killing 200 Israeli Children in a bus from a Suicide Bomber, then I'll justify running over seven Palestinian kids in a tank.

Its crude, but it works -- seeing as how half of you are all one-sided.
 
Hey, remember the Palestinians also kill themselves when they kill Israelis -- so its natural they're mortality rate is high.

btw 200 children in one bus? that's one big ass bus
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Perhaps not one Bus, but 200 children nonetheless. So, how do you feel? Oh, and if you dont answer my question by providing a query as to how you feel, I wont be suprised. :thumbs:
 
K e r b e r o s said:
Hey, remember the Palestinians also kill themselves when they kill Israelis -- so its natural they're mortality rate is high.



Perhaps not one Bus, but 200 children nonetheless. So, how do you feel? Oh, and if you dont answer my question by providing a query as to how you feel, I wont be suprised. :thumbs:
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I was referring to civilians not combatants
 
KoreBolteR said:
this isnt going to work, one guy is gonna kill another(from the other side) and then there will be a massive feud again :(
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This is a classic Romeo and Juliet scenario, all that is needed now is for a Jew and a Muslim to kill themselves in name for an everlasting peace between Israel and Palestine, I'm just wondering if that would be flawless.
 
Sgt_Shellback said:
If the Israels were commited to genocide... Well... There would have been peace in the mideast 20 years ago.
Click to expand...

It could be peace years ago, if not the double standard policy of US.


DEATH eVADER said:
This is a classic Romeo and Juliet scenario, all that is needed now is for a Jew and a Muslim to kill themselves in name for an everlasting peace between Israel and Palestine, I'm just wondering if that would be flawless.
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It' a bit more than that.

"Right and wrong are the same in Palestine as anywhere else. What is peculiar about the Palestine conflict is that the world has listened to the party that committed the offence and has turned a deaf ear to the victims." ( Professor Arnold Toynbee, famous historian)

"It was year-in-year-out American diplomacy and billions in American loans and/or outright grants voted for annually by Americans' representatives in Congress that were sustaining the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It was American-made bombers, paid for, at least in part, by American TAXPAYERS, that wre pulverizing Beirut apartement houses and burying their occupants under the rubbel. Rightly or wrongly, willingly or not, every American citizen, simply by his or her citezenship, was and is involved in the Conflict" Fr. John W. Mulhall, CSP, in his book "America and the founding of Israel, an Investigation of the Morality of America's Role, 1995, Deshon Press
 
I totally agree the USA continues to donate money to isreal, supporting there warcrimes, this is a ridiculous policy, they are trying to establish allies in the middle east. Sadly Isreal is no freind of mine, and shouldnt be supported by the USA either.
 
solaris152000 said:
I totally agree the USA continues to donate money to isreal, supporting there warcrimes, this is a ridiculous policy, they are trying to establish allies in the middle east. Sadly Isreal is no freind of mine, and shouldnt be supported by the USA either.
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Back up your arguments with facts/sources or its just useless argument.
 
I wonder if American taxpayers know that their tax money has been used many years for this:

Israeli Water Apartheid
http://www.ajpme.org/pdfs/waterapartheid.pdf

Israeli Housing Apartheid
http://www.ajpme.org/pdfs/housingapartheid.pdf

The Apartheid Wall
http://www.ajpme.org/pdfs/apartheidwall.pdf

The Right of Return - only for Jews
http://www.ajpme.org/pdfs/rightofreturn.pdf

The Occupation
http://www.ajpme.org/pdfs/theoccupation.pdf

Appartheid Again
http://www.ajpme.org/pdfs/apartheidagain.pdf

Liberty & Justice for Some
Amrica is not a neutral party in the negotiations in the Middle East...
http://www.ajpme.org/pdfs/libertyandjustice.pdf

When the last Palestinian is dead, will the American people recognize that our complicity and that being "pro-Israel" meant the ethnic cleansing of an entire people group?
http://www.ajpme.org/pdfs/lastpalestinian.pdf

Who will spaek truth in Israel
Who will state that the occupation is an act of violence, the most teribble of all, that terrorism is not only suicide bombers but also firing missiles at inhabited homes?
...
That depriving a whole nation of freedom of movement and placing that nation in prison is an act of violence more cruel than any in the past, and stirs a people to fight using whatever means it has?
That the roots of Palestinian terrorism have to be sought in the Israeli occupation and not in the Palestinian's genes?
http://www.ajpme.org/pdfs/speakthetruth.pdf

Geneva Conventions - End the Occupation
http://www.ajpme.org/pdfs/genevaconventions.pdf


http://www.ajpme.org/documentary.htm, rubrick "Jeff Halper on Generous Offer" (QuickTime):

Jeff Halper about Israeli policy on Palestinians as prisoners:

"Once we put them down, once they know their place, once they submit and they realize that they are living in a prison, then everything will be OK. But they have to understand where they are and who they are, and who the guards are."


http://www.ajpme.org/documentary.htm, rubrick "Allegra Pacheco and Jeff Halper speak on the Israeli perspective":

"We've been involved in a hundred year process of displacment. [The Jews]: This is our land, it belongs to Jewish people exclusively. ... Until today the word 'Palestinians' is not used often in Israel. But Arabs. So the Arabs are kind undifferent treated mass with no character, with no rights of their own, with no collective identity. But it doesn't matter because they are just kind of background. And the important enterprise is the enterprise of establishing the Jewish state. That's all."
 
Hmm. The 'warcrimes of Israel' argument conveniently forgets that it was the Arab World which tried to drive Israel into the sea in 1947, 1967, 1973...........

Would the Arabs be listening to calls to give Israel back if they had won the wars in 1947, 1967 or 1973? Of course not.
 
Calanen said:
Hmm. The 'warcrimes of Israel' argument conveniently forgets that it was the Arab World which tried to drive Israel into the sea in 1947, 1967, 1973...........
Click to expand...


http://www.ajpme.org/articles/thec.htm

"One of the myths that many Americans still believe is that the initial war between the Arabs and Israelis broke out on May 15, 1948 when the British withdrew and military units from Egypt, Jordan, Iraq and Syria entered Palestine, allegedly because the Arabs had rejected a partition plan that the Israelis accepted.

In fact, the fighting began almost six months earlier, immediately after the partition plan was announced. By the time the Arab armies intervened in May, some 400,000 Palestinians already had fled or been driven from their homes. To the Arab nations the military forces they sent to Palestine were on a rescue mission to halt the dispossession of Palestinians from the areas the U.N. had awarded to both the Jewish and the Palestinian Arab state. In fact history has revealed that the Jordanian forces had orders not to venture into areas the U.N. had awarded to Israel.

Although the newly created Israeli government didn't formally reject the partition plan, in practice it never accepted the plan. To this day, half a century later, Israel still refuses to define its borders.

In fact, when the fighting of 1947 and 1948 ended, the State of Israel occupied half of Jerusalem and 78 percent of the former mandate of Palestine. About 750,000 Muslim and Christian Palestinians had been driven from towns, villages and homes to which the Israeli forces never allowed them to return.

The four wars that followed, three of them started by Israel in 1956, 1967, and 1982, and one of them started by Egypt and Syria to recover their occupied lands in 1973, have been over the portions of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt which the Israelis occupied militarily in those wars, the other half of Jerusalem, and the 22 percent of Palestine comprising the West Bank and Gaza which is all that remains for the Palestinians."
 
Nemesis6 said:
http://masada2000.org/historical.html

Territories defined with timelines and all. Very good page.
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You claim it's a very good page. Why does it comes that already the start of the page is ridiculous?:

Take a close look at this PRESENT DAY MAP of the Middle East in which you can see that 22 Arab and/or Muslim [Iran is not considered Arab] nations completely engulf Israel. If someone can explain to me how "expansionist Israel" has "taken over" the Middle East, please email me! The Arab countries occupy 640 times the land mass as does Israel and outnumber the Jews of Israel by nearly fifty to one. So much for Arab propaganda!
Click to expand...

Who claims at all that Israel has taken over the Middle East??

Who is the author of this "document"? What sources did he/she use?

Ok, as it seems to be a no-name author, let's take a look at the hompage this "article" is hosted on. Hmm, it looks pretty bad ... It compromises the authors pretty strong. Some of what you can find there:

It is the primary obligation of the government to protect Jewish lives. Israel is first and foremost a JEWISH democratic State. It is NOT a non-sectarian, democratic country like the United States. As such, it is absurd for anyone other than Jews to be citizens in the first place! That is why Israel MUST revamp its Constitution making Israel unequivocally a JEWISH State… with NO possibility that any other group will ever become the majority. It is insane to have enemies of the Jewish people living anywhere within its boundaries. So how does Israel put a stop to the explosive Israeli Arab population growth? The same way one puts a stop to a growing cancer… REMOVE IT.

1. All ARAB Israeli villages must be dismantled and their inhabitants removed to any one of the 24 Arab countries. Israel takes care of all the world’s Jewish refugees. Let the Arab nations take care of their own. The Arab world is 600 times the size of Israel. I think they have room!
2. The repeal of citizenship of all non-Jews.
3. The immediate expulsion of all agitators or inciters.
4. The immediate and swift execution of ALL Arab terrorists.
5. Zero tolerance of any Intifada by a swift military take down. The Israeli Army should NOT waste rubber bullets unless rubber rocks are thrown at them!
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The next time you'd better choose a bit more reliable sources! :flame:


I suggest you this one (it might be an intersting source for other topics too):

U.S. Policy in the Middle East
by http://www.tni.org/fellows/bennis.htmPhyllis Bennis, a fellow of both TNI and the Insitute for Policy Studies in Washington DC

I assume, it's chapter two from her book "Before & After
US Foreign Policy and the September 11th Crisis":

"Review by Lynn Kaplanian-Buller, The American Book Center

Anyone who wonders how the Middle East can still bear such heart-wrenching proof of international policy-makers’ inability to sort victims from the victims of victims while leaving perpetrators unaccountable, should read Bennis’ historical synopsis of US policy in the Middle East in chapter two. Very clearly written, she shows how the groundwork for present-day confusion was laid after the First and Second World Wars, and has not been untangled since. The promises made simultaneously to Syria, Lebanon, Palestine and to the organizers of Jewish immigration into Palestine by France, England and the United States, set the region on a seemingly endless struggle over who has the right to be here, who was duped, who was double-duped. ...

This book is a sure incitement to dialogue on many fronts – and the lady has done her homework."
 
Well, that page is actually the "most important page" on that website - masada2000.org . The website itself, masada2000.org, is pro-Israel. I don't understand why you find it "ridiculous".
 
You know, now I find you ridiculous too.

You can read it again what did I find ridiculous, what not reliable and why in my posting #74.


Concerning the website itself, you are wrong. It's not pro-Israel. It's far more than just that.

It's a racist website, it's anti-Muslim website.
The anti-semitism is forbidden. But what is with the Jews' racism to Muslims or non-Jews?

Maybe a new expression should be invented (maybe it allready exists?): anti-gentile.

For a similar website about Jews one would get a lot of troubles with police in Germany, I'm pretty sure.


Btw, ask the moderators here, if it is allowed in this forum to promote such racist websites as that your "article" comes from.
 
I knew this was gonna happen. I present things from a non-mainstream angle, and I end up getting verbally assaulted... by the way, I think I now really know why you find it ridiculous - because you want it to be.

Disregarding your personal reservations about the website itself, did you read the page?
 
Read it again what I`ve written in my postings #74 and #76. Try to get the messages. If you can't, just leave it.
 
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